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Im With Stannis

Why is it so important that Jaime is in the Riverlands?

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On 15/06/2016 at 0:48 AM, Im With Stannis said:

Back when the show had Jaime gallivanting around Dorne, GRRM was quoted as saying that the show better get Jaime to the Riverlands quickly. Why is this? While I enjoyed the stand-off with him and the Blackfish, ultimately it seems kinda pointless to the story (so far). In the books, I believe it ended with Brienne leading Jaime away somewhere. I always though this might be to see Lady Stoneheart. We can see LSH is not in the show, so what else could happen here that is so pivotal to the story?

I think it's because

1) He needs to be abscent from KL for the death of Tommen

2) He is Azor Ahai, as mentioned and he probably needs to be near the north when the wall comes down and the White Walkers join the Starks so that he knows half of what he is defending humanity against when he retreats back to KL. The other half is Dany, of course.

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On 6/15/2016 at 7:57 AM, oursisthefury69 said:

yea thats not how that works.  Face doesnt transform your entire body structure not sure where you could have possibly got that impression book or show 

I guess it depends on how far you think glamoring works, because wearing a face as a Faceless Man definitely counts as glamoring.

A relevant book quote:

Quote

“...Jaqen used magic.”
“All sorcery comes at a cost, child. Years of prayer and sacrifice and study are required to work a proper glamor.”

Further, the book describes glamoring like so:

Quote

“The spell is made of shadow and suggestion. Men see what they expect to see. The bones are part of that.” Was I wrong to spare this one? “If the glamor fails, they will kill you.”


She later says to Mance and John Snow


"The strongest glamors are built of such things. A dead man’s boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. With whispered words and prayer, a man’s shadow can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak. The wearer’s essence does not change, only his seeming."

So it would make sense that having a dead man's FACE would also be on the list of things that would work a glamor. I'm not 100% sure, but from my understanding, it projects an exact copy of the person to the outside world, so yes, that would mean changing body size to match as well. For example, are Mance and Rattleshirt described as being the exact same size? I know on the show, Mance was tall and lithe while Rattleshirt was average height and stocky. Yet in the book, when Mance and Rattleshirt switch places via glamoring, no one notices.

But interestingly enough, the kindly man seems to describe what they do as even going beyond glamoring:

Quote

“Mummers change their faces with artifice,” the kindly man was saying, “and sorcerers use glamors, weaving light and shadow and desire to make illusions that trick the eye. These arts you shall learn, but what we do here goes deeper. Wise men can see through artifice, and glamors dissolve before sharp eyes, but the face you are about to don will be as true and solid as that face you were born with. Keep your eyes closed.”

In this scene, we don't see Jaqen's height change much, but his body type definitely changes:

https://media.giphy.com/media/3o85xL8B5OwJsoeAzC/giphy.gif

 

Then of course, we have this scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljFljgf2USk

 

When the Waif changes to Jaqen, you can pretty clearly see she has grown substantially.

Again, I'm not 100% sure, but there does seem to be some precedent for glamoring giving the user the ability to change their body size/height as well. Plus, if the Faceless Men are really the master assassins they are reputed to be, it would be incredibly limiting if they could only imitate people who are about their height and body shape. To truly be No One, it would seem that you should be able to alter your entire bodily appearance, since your body size/height is part of who you actually are.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Aegonzo The Great said:

In the preview for this season, there is a big feast scene where the Lannisters and Freys are shown together. Granted, it may have been a stretch to assume it was a wedding. They could just be celebrating the re-taking of Riverrun, but I tend to think the show wants to follow to books to an extent and have the Red Wedding 2: The Revenge Of The Starks.

Is Jaime in the scene? He seems to genuinely dislike the Freys and is in such a hurry to get his nose back up Cersei's ass so I wouldn't think he'd stick around any longer than it takes to reclaim RR.

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I think that Jaime's relationship with Cersi will be concluded with him killing her for destroying KL (cheating on him with his cousin wasn't obvious enough for D&D, the books will be vastly different).  He will then have no reason to stay, and will head north to his BFF.  Because of this he won't be at the RWII: Arya Strikes Back

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2 hours ago, Boarsbane said:

Is Jaime in the scene? He seems to genuinely dislike the Freys and is in such a hurry to get his nose back up Cersei's ass so I wouldn't think he'd stick around any longer than it takes to reclaim RR.

We don't see him, but he's with the Freys and Lannisters right now, so unless he strikes out on his own to go somewhere else, it's reasonable to expect him to still be with his current group.

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13 hours ago, Aegonzo The Great said:

We don't see him, but he's with the Freys and Lannisters right now, so unless he strikes out on his own to go somewhere else, it's reasonable to expect him to still be with his current group.

He'd presumably leaves some of his men to stabilize the region but him sticking around to celebrate with the Freys would be bizarre with the way the show has made him so obsessed with Cersei. 

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33 minutes ago, Boarsbane said:

He'd presumably leaves some of his men to stabilize the region but him sticking around to celebrate with the Freys would be bizarre with the way the show has made him so obsessed with Cersei. 

I agree, but then, getting back to the topic of this thread....

Why is it so important that Jaime is in the Riverlands? If all he did was show up and convince Edmure to betray his family, that seems like not such an important thing.

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51 minutes ago, Aegonzo The Great said:

I agree, but then, getting back to the topic of this thread....

Why is it so important that Jaime is in the Riverlands? If all he did was show up and convince Edmure to betray his family, that seems like not such an important thing.

Hard to say with so much changed from the books, whatever reason he's there for in the books may not apply in the show. It could be simply to isolate Cersei or keep him out of KL for when it burns down. They don't seem to know what to do with him honestly but some future event relevant to the end might require his presence so they're keeping him around but he's not actually developing as a character, he's just there doing stuff.

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I feel like D&D made it really obvious in the last episode that Brotherhood Without Banners & the Hound were going North and guess who else is going North? I feel like the might do the Lady Stoneheart hanging Brienne story line if she doesn't kill Jamie but without Lady Stoneheart.  This may or may not be before Jamie goes back to KL before it burns.  Rather than Lady Stoneheart, the Hound might have it out for Brienne after their first encounter.

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1 hour ago, High Sparrow Little Bird said:

I feel like D&D made it really obvious in the last episode that Brotherhood Without Banners & the Hound were going North and guess who else is going North? I feel like the might do the Lady Stoneheart hanging Brienne story line if she doesn't kill Jamie but without Lady Stoneheart.  This may or may not be before Jamie goes back to KL before it burns.  Rather than Lady Stoneheart, the Hound might have it out for Brienne after their first encounter.

I don't think so. The Hound doesn't seem to harbor any grudge against her. He seems pretty at peace with the whole thing.

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I suspect that Old Man Frey is gonna get his before too much longer.  Doesn't he have too?  All of his conspirators in the Red Wedding have been laid low.  If so, there will likely be a period of civil war in the region.  Walder Frey has lots of heirs, and they are all tired of waiting.  Tinder waiting for a spark, yes?  SO let's say that WF gets assassinated by Arya, unrest happens, perhaps just as the white walker trouble from the North spills south, Jaime saves the day by patching together an alliance of the remaining houses and stops the incursion.

Here's the thing, though....I just don't think this story ends with a heroic battle to save Westeros.  The winning ending is when The men of Westeros and the White Walkers make peace.  Peace happens in Martin stories when cultural differences are overcome, not by conquest.  Perhaps the Children of the Forest have a hand in brokering the peace, too.  

IMHO, Martin is not going to have a big penultimate battle where the good guys conquer the bad.  Or, if he does, it will be the first thing of his I have ever read that ends anything remotely like that.

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On 6/16/2016 at 3:33 AM, CBeck113 said:

I think that Jaime's relationship with Cersi will be concluded with him killing her for destroying KL (cheating on him with his cousin wasn't obvious enough for D&D, the books will be vastly different).  He will then have no reason to stay, and will head north to his BFF.  Because of this he won't be at the RWII: Arya Strikes Back

Cheating on him with his cousin wasn't good enough for the show, either. 

What a tame reason to turn against someone who has done so much awful, and yet you've stuck with them throughout? 

Her being responsible for taking out Tommen though? That's the kind of motivation that could make sense to explain a Jaime turn

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On 15/06/2016 at 7:57 PM, Beorn Snow said:

In the books it looks like Brienne and Jaime will be forced to fight by the BWB and Stoneheart. Let´s not rule out something like that happening.

Could see LSH doing this, but it doesn't sound like a game Beric would play.

I do think the BWB will intercept Brienne, Pod and Jaime.  What the outcome will be, I don't know. 

  

On 15/06/2016 at 10:28 AM, Gertrude said:

ell, for the most part I do try to separate the books and show, but some things are harder than others. Jaime is my favorite PoV so this one hits harder for me. There was just so much potential in his story and none of it is being used, so I'm a little bitter about it.

I also manage for the most part to separate books and show, but book Jaime is such a good character that it's a shame to see a far less interesting character in the show, one whose only motivation is bound up with Cersei.  At least if he's in the Riverlands he isn't following her around Kings Landing like a labrador.

 

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If the Hound goes North, it is out of sense of duty/caring for Sansa/Arya. As the only reason Brienne fought the Hound was the fact he had Arya, I could see some initial tense moments, but would soon realize they are on the same side.

 

I am not sure I see Jamie heading North, much more likely to return to Westeros. I think we are about to see two battles shaping up, Dany vs Westeros in the South, and Jon vs the Boltons in the North. I see Jamie more of a participant in the former.

 

Once both of the battles have settled out, THEN we see the battle for Humanity vs the White Walkers. The brokered peace will occur out of necessity, to defeat an inhuman foe.  

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The scene with Edmure is a man who used people perception of him with Cersei and used this in the successful attempt to have a peaceful surrender of the castle.  He did not want to threaten Edmure but when he needed to he went at it in a personal manner.  He started with talking about Catelyn and drew it in to Cersei.  When he saw Edmure's reaction he went for Edmure's family and threaten to kill everyone in the Castle.  

Jaime still has deep feelings for Cersei at this time.  He also has concern for his family and does want to avoid needing to fight Brienne.  His motativation does have Cersei, and he does used it, but he wanted to resolve a situation with a little bloodshed as possible.

 

I do not see Jaime being back in Kingslanding for the season finale.  He may very well receive a letter from Cersei stating how the Sept is burned down, their enemies are dead, that Tommen is dead but does not matter for they are the only two in the world.

 

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seige at Riverrun and other Riverlands stuff with Jaime wasn't inherently important in the books or the show - it was just a place for Jaime to experience character development and to get info he needs to proceed to his endgame.  In both, two important things occurred: 1) Jaime using strategy to win military victories instead of always resorting to violence, 2) Jaime meeting Brienne and being told Sansa Stark is alive.  

After Cersei is toast (I'm assuming that Jaime will watch her kill everyone in ep 10 and finally grasp how far gone she is), Jaime ultimately will go North.  His motivation to go North is that Brienne has informed him that she is there, with Sansa Stark, attempting to restore Sansa to her rightful home.    He may later learn of the white walkers.  Since his family is dead he is free to choose the path he wishes for himself - not merely to serve his house or his family.  

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On 6/15/2016 at 8:31 AM, Hodor's Aunt said:

Maybe she could prep a different person with that face? Don't know if that is possible or has ever been adressed as an option.

yea sure if you want to just make up your own some what adjacent fan fiction to fill out the unwritten parts of the series as you want them to go and or so its in line with your predictions that don't line up within the parameters of the actual story 

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