Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

rs1n

Faceless men history turned on its head

Recommended Posts

This episode made absolutely no sense to me. Up until this point, I got the impression that the faceless men (and in particular Jaqen on the show) have some sort of "honor code" that they follow. When Jaqen killed, it seemed as though he made an effort to keep his actions discrete. The waif is completely the opposite. And to top it off, the ending was terrible. I mean I like the gist of it, but it seemed like the writers completely ignored the backstory to the faceless men. Arya's progression to become a faceless man does not seem to adhere to any previous "rules" unless one is to believe that disobeying orders (Lady Jane) and seemingly desecrating the hall of faces with the waif's poorly "dressed" (as just a few examples)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the show is trying to cut out any events that might prolong its lack of creativity amosngst its writers. Theyre putting up the white flag and are bringing the main plot to the forefront. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, rs1n said:

This episode made absolutely no sense to me. Up until this point, I got the impression that the faceless men (and in particular Jaqen on the show) have some sort of "honor code" that they follow. When Jaqen killed, it seemed as though he made an effort to keep his actions discrete. The waif is completely the opposite. And to top it off, the ending was terrible. I mean I like the gist of it, but it seemed like the writers completely ignored the backstory to the faceless men. Arya's progression to become a faceless man does not seem to adhere to any previous "rules" unless one is to believe that disobeying orders (Lady Jane) and seemingly desecrating the hall of faces with the waif's poorly "dressed" (as just a few examples)

Given that the Waif has also been blatantly obvious in her personal hatred of Arya, which seems just a leeeeetle bit at odds with the dispassionate attitude and no-one-ness the Faceless Men are supposed to have, I'd say that the show's done a piss-poor job with this particular group. (I also feel like Jaqen's "Now a girl is no one" is totally unearned--she killed the Waif, yeah, but, uh, she still refused to kill the actress and still wants to kill people for personal reasons, and Jaqen frankly is smarter than to think that her killing the Waif somehow made her become no one. It just doesn't make sense.) But sense and consistency have been sacrificed at the altar of Getting the Show Moving Along Quickly. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Motivations and rules of the FM just changed however the scene demanded it. Trying to figure out any sense or consistency will just give you a headache.

You own the god of death a life if you save someone from dying (Arya resciung Jaquen, Rorge and Biter) but apparently he is also pissed if you kill someone who was not yet supposed to die. (Trant) And to even that out, another life is owed. So somehow 1+1 equals 0 by their logic ?

One day thy are into social justice (Thin man), but then "death comes for everyone" and it doesn't matter if they are supposed to kill a nice person for petty jealousy (Lady Crane).

They are supposed to be working in a discrete way, but let their apprentices fight each other publicly in broad daylight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think I understood it, there is no contradiction in the story of the FM :

- the only rule for jaqen is 'the face of your target or your face', he don't give a damn about any other rule

- the Waif-U is reckless? it never shown how the FM must behave in any episode

- the ending is logical, jaqen's only rule is 'bring a face', Arya didn't want to kill Cersei2, but their god needs a face so Jaqen sent the Waif-U to collect the face of Arya, but Arya killed Waif-U and bring her face to the hall, Jaqen don't give a shit who's face it was, for him, Arya paid her debt to the many faces god, so for him, she don't owe nothing to the FM, she's free to go

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

I think I understood it, there is no contradiction in the story of the FM :

- the only rule for jaqen is 'the face of your target or your face', he don't give a damn about any other rule

- the Waif-U is reckless? it never shown how the FM must behave in any episode

- the ending is logical, jaqen's only rule is 'bring a face', Arya didn't want to kill Cersei2, but their god needs a face so Jaqen sent the Waif-U to collect the face of Arya, but Arya killed Waif-U and bring her face to the hall, Jaqen don't give a shit who's face it was, for him, Arya paid her debt to the many faces god, so for him, she don't owe nothing to the FM, she's free to go

But what with the scene after Arya killed Trant instead of the Thin man ? Was Jaquen only pissed, because Arya didn't collect Trants face ? And then, instead of having Arya killed to take her face, some other, random faceless man had to sacrifice himself ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Rhollo said:

But what with the scene after Arya killed Trant instead of the Thin man ? Was Jaquen only pissed, because Arya didn't collect Trants face ?

Sorry, I'm not a book reader, this is maybe false, but I think yes, Jaqen was pissed because she didn't bring any face as replacement

7 minutes ago, Rhollo said:

And then, instead of having Arya killed to take her face, some other, random faceless man had to sacrifice himself ?

Yes I think, the only rule of Jaquen is "bring a face", he knew that she can't fulfill the rule so he rescue her by giving a face to the many faces god, he paid the debt for her

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can't run an assassin organization if you don't care if anyone hits their assigned target or not, just as long as somebody dies.  How would the FM have achieved a worldwide reputation if they ran things on that basis?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, the  cartoon chase scene between Arya and the Waif was the most ridiculous thing I've seen on this show that didn't involve Dorne. I swear, all that was missing was tow guys carrying a huge glass plate across the street.

And yeah, the faceless men do not make sense, especially Jaqen declaring that Arya's "no one" now....why? Because she's killed someone? She has killed people before... so what has changed now? Jacqen should have killed Arya for trying to desert the order. This could have led to interesting sotrytelling further down the line as she constantly has to dodge her would-be assassins.

Not gonna lie, I'm gonna miss the Waif, I disliked the chase scene, but i did like how creepy she was during those out-of-focus shots. Also it was nice to have a character who didn't bend over and let Arya have her way (looking at you Jaqen)

In conclusion I hope we never see Jaqen again, I freaking hate his speech pattern and have always hated it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the show, I guess that is it for the facless men/man? I do not think it will be so easy in the books but there you go. Arya has been trained to do some damage and she intends on doing it. She seems to have new advanced healing powers too!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jaqen seriously comes off as a crazy person or just someone who gives zero fucks about everything. 

This FM storyline has been pretty bad in the show and the books, I'm just glad Arya's apparently returning to Westeros. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

Sorry, I'm not a book reader, this is maybe false, but I think yes, Jaqen was pissed because she didn't bring any face as replacement

Yes I think, the only rule of Jaquen is "bring a face", he knew that she can't fulfill the rule so he rescue her by giving a face to the many faces god, he paid the debt for her

Don't worry, the book!FM have close to no relevance for those on the show.

And if "Kill people, collect faces" was basically the only rule Jaquen operates by (which sorry, is not feasable, because, as @Cas Stark pointed out, the FM are world famous for being the most dangerous and reliable hired assassins available), why isn't that the first thing he teaches his apprentices ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Jaqen seriously comes off as a crazy person or just someone who gives zero fucks about everything. 

This FM storyline has been pretty bad in the show and the books, I'm just glad Arya's apparently returning to Westeros. 

This is where the show suffers and did a poor job in transitioning the KM=Jaqen.  Jaqen in the books seems to have a different code than the KM.  He doesn't care who is offered to the many faced god as long as the math works out, he does tell Arya she can basically kill everyone on her list one by one.  This is quite different from what the KM is telling her about being no one, about no extra killing, and I think but can't remember for sure that the FM in the book don't kill people they know personally...

Muddling this all up by putting Jaqen in charge of Arya in Braavos then muddles up the rules of the FM, which seems to be there are no rules...you can train, learn how to put on faces and then say, nah brah, I changed my mind and as long as the math works it's all good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Rhollo said:

Don't worry, the book!FM have close to no relevance for those on the show.

And if "Kill people, collect faces" was basically the only rule Jaquen operates by (which sorry, is not feasable, because, as @Cas Stark pointed out, the FM are world famous for being the most dangerous and reliable hired assasins available), why isn't that the first thing he teaches his apprentices ?

I assure you I don't know, it's what I understood, I always wondered why the most dangerous and reliable hired assasins available have only two members : Jaquen and Waif-U :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

Jaqen seriously comes off as a crazy person or just someone who gives zero fucks about everything. 

Maybe it is actually a bunch of different guys with different interpretations of the rules running the FM, all donning "Jaquens" face and that's why the leadership style seems to change all the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Rhollo said:

Maybe it is actually a bunch of different guys with different interpretations of the rules running the FM, all donning "Jaquens" face and that's why the leadership style seems to change all the time.

That would make so much sense. It would totally explain why the first time Arya arrived at the House of Black and White Jaqen #1 was like "Get lost!" but then Jaqen #2 randomly saw Arya about to get mugged and was like, "Come in, bruh, you're cool!" 

It would certainly explain all the mixed messages she was getting. 

8 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

This is where the show suffers and did a poor job in transitioning the KM=Jaqen.  Jaqen in the books seems to have a different code than the KM.  He doesn't care who is offered to the many faced god as long as the math works out, he does tell Arya she can basically kill everyone on her list one by one.  This is quite different from what the KM is telling her about being no one, about no extra killing, and I think but can't remember for sure that the FM in the book don't kill people they know personally...

Muddling this all up by putting Jaqen in charge of Arya in Braavos then muddles up the rules of the FM, which seems to be there are no rules...you can train, learn how to put on faces and then say, nah brah, I changed my mind and as long as the math works it's all good.

I think it would have been just as confusing with the Kindly Man. The only difference is that he would've come off as a senile old man instead of a crazy hobbo like Jaqen. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Future Null Infinity said:

I think I understood it, there is no contradiction in the story of the FM :

- the only rule for jaqen is 'the face of your target or your face', he don't give a damn about any other rule

- the Waif-U is reckless? it never shown how the FM must behave in any episode

- the ending is logical, jaqen's only rule is 'bring a face', Arya didn't want to kill Cersei2, but their god needs a face so Jaqen sent the Waif-U to collect the face of Arya, but Arya killed Waif-U and bring her face to the hall, Jaqen don't give a shit who's face it was, for him, Arya paid her debt to the many faces god, so for him, she don't owe nothing to the FM, she's free to go

SO basically rather than a secret society born of the suffering of the slaves of valyria to bring the gift of death to people in need who, over hundreds or thousands of years, grew to be a religious death cult which worships the god with many faces (essentially every death god in the world like the great other, the stranger, the black goat, etc. etc. etc.) and who will take contracts in lieu of incredibly large donations to the group and carry out their charge not as murder but as giving the gift of death because Valar Morghulis, Valar Dohalris and, in a sense, all life is sufferatin (valar Buddhist?) they are something totally different. Essentially instead of all this they are just a bunch of local wierdos in braavos who do murder for higher and have a Dexter-esq trophy collection of faces?

 

Ok. Just checking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Good Guy Garlan said:

 

I think it would have been just as confusing with the Kindly Man. The only difference is that he would've come off as a senile old man instead of a crazy hobbo like Jaqen. 

It's doubtful the KM in the book is going to just let Arya go like that, sayonnara baby, good luck, too bad it didn't work out.  I guess it's possible, but it would then make Book KM totally full of s***  unless the crackpots who think the FM were targeting Arya all along for something special turn out to be correct. It's been my opinion that he knows she's hasn't let go of her identity and he probably also knows she has stashed needle, but due to her facility with killing and her 'many gifts' they're going to see if she can hack it.  But, it would not be believable unless the penalty for washing out as a FM so late in the game was anything but death.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

I assure you I don't know, it's what I understood, I always wondered why the most dangerous and reliable hired assasins available have only two members : Jaquen and Waif-U :D

In all fairness...while your question would seem correct...that the most dangerous and expensive assassin group in the world would only have two members...jaquen and bobcut...I must point out that fact that (at least wrt the show) we haven't actually seen the faceless men successfully complete a single contract. It would seem that everyone they are supposed to kill winds up living and when they try to kill one of their own they fail miserably at it. It is possible that, like the beatles, they have a good reputation based solely on nostalgia, publicity and advertising and are actually just kind of hacks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

SO basically rather than a secret society born of the suffering of the slaves of valyria to bring the gift of death to people in need who, over hundreds or thousands of years, grew to be a religious death cult which worships the god with many faces (essentially every death god in the world like the great other, the stranger, the black goat, etc. etc. etc.) and who will take contracts in lieu of incredibly large donations to the group and carry out their charge not as murder but as giving the gift of death because Valar Morghulis, Valar Dohalris and, in a sense, all life is sufferatin (valar Buddhist?) they are something totally different. Essentially instead of all this they are just a bunch of local wierdos in braavos who do murder for higher and have a Dexter-esq trophy collection of faces?

 

Ok. Just checking.

My friend, not so hard on me :D, I'm not a book reader, I don't know the real rules of the FM, it's what I understood, but yes, pedo Jaquen (who don't give a damn about anything) and crazy Waif are the weirdos of braavos

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×