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Tana Snow

Did Edmure do the right thing?

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33 minutes ago, TickTak7 said:

The Tully motto is "FAMILY. DUTY. HONOR". 

Blackfish said "eff family and duty", basically, in favor of some dumb suicide death. 

Edmure on the other hand, I guess you can say, put his family first? Even though he's never met his son / saw his wife once on his wedding night? 

I'm not so sure Edmure did the right thing so much as it was pretty much the only move he had to make. 

It just felt very unbelievable and unrealistic to expect Edmure to crack and give in to Jaime at an empty threat against a child he's ever met and likely to never see again. 

Yeah, I wish they put a little more emphasis on the Riverlands armies as well, similar to there conversation in the books. There conversation was probably my favorite scene of the episode though, so it's a balancing act. It just felt like the only reason he was doing it was because of the kid, which probably isn't actually true.

What really hurt the perception of his actions I think , was taking out the 2 or 3 lines about how Jaime would send the Riverlords who bent the knee first, so it would be Riverlands vs. Riverlands and they'd be killing there own people. While keeping his commen about killing everyone in the castle would have put a little more emphasis Edmures thoughts on not only saving his kid, but all the Riverlands men as well.

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The question is, in episode 7 they wanted kill Edmure, if they dont surrender and Blackfish said kill him, no one protested, but last episode

a prisoner (Edmure) wants them open gate they remember him being lord of the castle.

Without hearing the reason they obey a betrayer to surrender, thats a stupid army

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I have a hard time believing Jaime would have let the Tully army go north, knowing they would come back with the North later on to re-capture Riverrun. Who knows though. Maybe Brienne got under his skin enough that he still sends them north.

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4 hours ago, YOVMO said:

Both of them lived up to the tully words....Screw Family, Duty and Honor. Much like Jamie and Cersei have, in forgetting Marcella, proved that Lannisters Don't Pay their Debt and the Northern Houses have shown that the North Forgets. This is all on the heels of the absence of the Iron Bank because, as we know, they never get their due and Euron having trees harvested on Pyke because, ya know, They Sow. While we are at it, everyone is living up to their names. Notice how the Tarly's, other than showing up for a pre war Tourney before Renly was killed, totally avoided the war of the 5 kings....you know, because last to fight. I suppose it all makes sense in the wake of the total dumping of the dornish plot and the ending of the martell line...because, ya know, bowed, bent and broken.

I´m sure you mean all this as a harsh criticism, but to me you only managed to make the show sound all that much better. Because people are not some family words, and to believe they are is very naive, and to expect them to be is just childish.

 

Regarding Edmure, the show makes it clear he betrayed his people by showing the reaction of the captain of the guard. That´s not only his home, all those people were there ready to fight and die for their own land and he robbed them of this opportunity. If they prefered their lives safe over their honor, they´d have betrayed the blackfish and surrendered. Edmure betrayed the Blackfish and surrendered.

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Blackfish had written him off as a dead man and Edmure seemed to accept that. He did what he did to save his child. Blackfish's stubborn stance probably just made it a bit easier for him. Plus, they've played Edmure as a dunce on the show anyway.

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5 hours ago, TickTak7 said:

The Tully motto is "FAMILY. DUTY. HONOR". 

Blackfish said "eff family and duty", basically, in favor of some dumb suicide death. 

Edmure on the other hand, I guess you can say, put his family first? Even though he's never met his son / saw his wife once on his wedding night? 

I'm not so sure Edmure did the right thing so much as it was pretty much the only move he had to make. 

It just felt very unbelievable and unrealistic to expect Edmure to crack and give in to Jaime at an empty threat against a child he's ever met and likely to never see again. 

I don't know.  Some of this is from a book reader perspective, but I think even though the Freys are terrible people with no regard for guest rights, I think it is beneficial to them that there is a Tully/Frey heir to Riverrunn.  It gives them legitimacy. 

I also think that "well he's never even met the kid" is still selling short the fact that this child, the continuation of the Tully line is all Edumure has.

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4 hours ago, NutBurz said:

Regarding Edmure, the show makes it clear he betrayed his people by showing the reaction of the captain of the guard. That´s not only his home, all those people were there ready to fight and die for their own land and he robbed them of this opportunity. If they prefered their lives safe over their honor, they´d have betrayed the blackfish and surrendered. Edmure betrayed the Blackfish and surrendered.

If they were really prepared to follow the Blackfish they would have listened to his very sound advice and never let Edmure in in the first place.

I agree that the show wants us to view Edumure as committing a terrible betrayal, but I'm willing to cut him a little slack.  As someone said above, depending on what happens to his men in the end, I think that Edumure's decision was a reasonable one.  

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n don't understand why people are saying letting Edmure in was a terrible decision or why Blackfish was against it - it was a brilliant decision. They've just got an important hostage back apropos of nothing - of course they should let him in! What was totally stupid was then following his every command even when it went against all common sense.

These are the men that helped BF retake the castle, presumably by at least some violence. They knew that they were outnumbered but they did it anyway, prepared to die for their home and for BF. They ven lot their gates closed when threatened with Edmure's death. Yet when he shows up and asks them to surrender to their gates enemies they do it? WTF

As for Edmure, it's only the right choice because Larry is going to gallivant back to KL to Larrol away and let his men live. But of course Edmure had no way of knowing this would be the case, putting his faith on the honour of a man widely rumoured not to have any and the fucking Freys, so it's only worked because of dumb luck. 

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17 hours ago, Sigrid said:

I don't know.  Some of this is from a book reader perspective, but I think even though the Freys are terrible people with no regard for guest rights, I think it is beneficial to them that there is a Tully/Frey heir to Riverrunn.  It gives them legitimacy. 

I also think that "well he's never even met the kid" is still selling short the fact that this child, the continuation of the Tully line is all Edumure has.

I read a couple of people pointing this out as well. IT's a good point. 

I think, just given that we've seen so little of Edmure on this show, that it jsut felt like a really cheap motivator to explain why he chooses to give up Riverrun. 

I don't know. 

I can live with it. I just don't really understand the entire point of the Riverrun arc, unless it's specifically to have Jaime away from Cersei for a period of time. 

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On ‎6‎/‎15‎/‎2016 at 11:35 AM, TickTak7 said:
On ‎6‎/‎15‎/‎2016 at 11:35 AM, TickTak7 said:

I'm not so sure Edmure did the right thing so much as it was pretty much the only move he had to make. 

 

This.

Edmure spent the entire time between consummating his marriage and the taking of Riverrun as a prisoner of the Frey's.

Jamie's offer was the best (and probably only) offer he got. 

Realistically, what were his options?

Tell Jamie "Kiss My ASS, I would rather stay a prisoner of the Frey's than take a walk of shame?

Go along with Jamie's plan and promise anything until he could get inside Riverrun and then take it back and sit around on the receiving end of a siege that was probably a lost cause?

Take Jamie's offer, open the gate, get the Riverrun soldiers to throw down their arms, and hopefully see the remainder of his people live a while longer.

Probably no more than 1 in 100,000 people would do anything other than what he did.

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1 hour ago, NeoCount said:

This.

Edmure spent the entire time between consummating his marriage and the taking of Riverrun as a prisoner of the Frey's.

Jamie's offer was the best (and probably only) offer he got. 

Realistically, what were his options?

Tell Jamie "Kiss My ASS, I would rather stay a prisoner of the Frey's than take a walk of shame?

Go along with Jamie's plan and promise anything until he could get inside Riverrun and then take it back and sit around on the receiving end of a siege that was probably a lost cause?

Take Jamie's offer, open the gate, get the Riverrun soldiers to throw down their arms, and hopefully see the remainder of his people live a while longer.

Probably no more than 1 in 100,000 people would do anything other than what he did.

How about sneak away with Brienne to plot revenge and help his niece?

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4 hours ago, TickTak7 said:

I can live with it. I just don't really understand the entire point of the Riverrun arc, unless it's specifically to have Jaime away from Cersei for a period of time. 

Yeah, that's pretty much what it felt like to me. I suppose the fact that Sansa's own uncle won't help her is pretty interesting as well. Perhaps if Cat had done a better job of creating a relationship between her family and her kids, then BF would have known her signature. :)

I understand that BF knew Edmure was a trap, but it seems to me that it would have been smarter to bring him in and send him to a tower to "heal" or whatever so BF could stay in charge, no?

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7 minutes ago, Tyrion'sDelight said:

Yeah, that's pretty much what it felt like to me. I suppose the fact that Sansa's own uncle won't help her is pretty interesting as well. Perhaps if Cat had done a better job of creating a relationship between her family and her kids, then BF would have known her signature. :)

I understand that BF knew Edmure was a trap, but it seems to me that it would have been smarter to bring him in and send him to a tower to "heal" or whatever so BF could stay in charge, no?

Exactly. 

Bring him in, "arrest him", secure and interrogate, and then let him resume as lord once they realized everything was set. 

Might have only prolonged the standoff, but I fully agree with you. 

I think what it all comes down to, is that most of us are feeling the same thing = The entire Riverrun / Blackfish arc felt very unsatisfying in it's resolution. 

 

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9 hours ago, TickTak7 said:

I read a couple of people pointing this out as well. IT's a good point. 

I think, just given that we've seen so little of Edmure on this show, that it jsut felt like a really cheap motivator to explain why he chooses to give up Riverrun. 

I don't know. 

I can live with it. I just don't really understand the entire point of the Riverrun arc, unless it's specifically to have Jaime away from Cersei for a period of time. 

I definitely agree the point was probably supposed to be "character development" for Jaimie, as sorry as it was. The show Edmure is pretty shallow and really has no subtext as to why he would or wouldn't do anything other than "My uncle who always said I was worthless wanted to let them cut my throat, to hell with him".  Just grasping at anything to make this story line have some kind of depth.

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IMO, to not even talk to the BF and get a status report shows a lack of prudence.  Jaime's offer to Brienne would have still stood, the men could have been free to fight elsewhere, Edmure could have even ordered the BF to lead them and maybe his sense of honor would have allowed him to leave under the order.

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On 15/06/2016 at 7:31 PM, Sigrid said:

If they were really prepared to follow the Blackfish they would have listened to his very sound advice and never let Edmure in in the first place.

I agree that the show wants us to view Edumure as committing a terrible betrayal, but I'm willing to cut him a little slack.  As someone said above, depending on what happens to his men in the end, I think that Edumure's decision was a reasonable one.  

If they weren´t prepared to follow the Blackfish they would not be inside the castle. They were not prepared to comit treason against their liege lord because of the command of a knight.

Same thing applies to the theories "Blackfish should have emprisioned Edmure". He´s the Lord of Riverrun, who would carry out BF´s command? They didn´t even keep the gates closed. The moment he set his foot there and told them to surrender they did, however grudgingly. They probably didn´t expect him to surrender and just trusted their Lord to make a decision before becoming, what? Separatists? There´s no clear cause for those people to join. Doesn´t mean they´re happy about it, but they clearly are not fond of treason.

I also think Edmure did the only reasonable thing - which was betraying his people. The very reason why the morals of a prince should be his own.

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17 hours ago, NutBurz said:

If they weren´t prepared to follow the Blackfish they would not be inside the castle. They were not prepared to comit treason against their liege lord because of the command of a knight.

Same thing applies to the theories "Blackfish should have emprisioned Edmure". He´s the Lord of Riverrun, who would carry out BF´s command? They didn´t even keep the gates closed. The moment he set his foot there and told them to surrender they did, however grudgingly. They probably didn´t expect him to surrender and just trusted their Lord to make a decision before becoming, what? Separatists? There´s no clear cause for those people to join. Doesn´t mean they´re happy about it, but they clearly are not fond of treason.

I also think Edmure did the only reasonable thing - which was betraying his people. The very reason why the morals of a prince should be his own.

How is that the BF doesnt have any soldiers on his side? I agree, he wouldnt have been able to get all the men to turn on Edmure, (which would not have been smart to begiin with) but Edmure has been captive for a long time (obviously not treated right by the Frey's as fhe BF could see) so my immediate thought would be to meet him at the gate myself with the few friends he has and literally rush him to some place to have him looked after. Basically, it's like he didn't think it through at all. He decided to hold his ground about not caring about Edmure, (for what?) and then turn around and die. He left his family, and his ancestral home, and his death was anything but honorable. It just felt like a mess to me.

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18 minutes ago, Tyrion'sDelight said:

How is that the BF doesnt have any soldiers on his side? I agree, he wouldnt have been able to get all the men to turn on Edmure, (which would not have been smart to begiin with) but Edmure has been captive for a long time (obviously not treated right by the Frey's as fhe BF could see) so my immediate thought would be to meet him at the gate myself with the few friends he has and literally rush him to some place to have him looked after. Basically, it's like he didn't think it through at all. He decided to hold his ground about not caring about Edmure, (for what?) and then turn around and die. He left his family, and his ancestral home, and his death was anything but honorable. It just felt like a mess to me.

1-He has their loyalty as a knight until he commands them to act against their liege.

2-He has no friends, clearly. He has people obeying hierarchy. The show shows us that. He doesn´t walk with people around him, he´s not framed with anyone particularly at his side, the men are not willing to keep the gates closed. Even if he had the sympathy of footsoldiers, they were clearly not prepared to begin "civil war" over mistreating their lord.

If he meets Edmure by the gate and tells the men to contain him, he´d die a traitor´s death.

3-It´s not like he didn´t care. He was just willing to sacrifice him. Over his honor. Turns out Blackfish is simply not quite the hero some people might have hoped he was.

4-No, he didn´t. He makes it clear his niece is pretty much a stranger, not more family than Riverrun is his home. He died fighting for the freedom of his house against Lannister men, not fighting his own brethren because he ordered them to arrest their Lord. Why would it be any more honorable to die fighting a Stark´s war in a foreign land, for a foregneir´s home that they lost because they left, not even because it was really taken from them.

He died fighting not to hand his home to the people he knew as his enemies. He´s not aware he´s supposed to be a plot device.

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