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Tana Snow

Did Edmure do the right thing?

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9 minutes ago, NutBurz said:

1-He has their loyalty as a knight until he commands them to act against their liege.

2-He has no friends, clearly. He has people obeying hierarchy. The show shows us that. He doesn´t walk with people around him, he´s not framed with anyone particularly at his side, the men are not willing to keep the gates closed. Even if he had the sympathy of footsoldiers, they were clearly not prepared to begin "civil war" over mistreating their lord.

If he meets Edmure by the gate and tells the men to contain him, he´d die a traitor´s death.

3-It´s not like he didn´t care. He was just willing to sacrifice him. Over his honor. Turns out Blackfish is simply not quite the hero some people might have hoped he was.

4-No, he didn´t. He makes it clear his niece is pretty much a stranger, not more family than Riverrun is his home. He died fighting for the freedom of his house against Lannister men, not fighting his own brethren because he ordered them to arrest their Lord. Why would it be any more honorable to die fighting a Stark´s war in a foreign land, for a foregneir´s home that they lost because they left, not even because it was really taken from them.

He died fighting not to hand his home to the people he knew as his enemies. He´s not aware he´s supposed to be a plot device.

I agree that the show doesnt indicaye any friends, but I don't understand why. Perhaps, I've forgotten,  has he been away from Riverrun for a long time?

Ha, to the plot device bit! I will 100% admit, I didn't realize he was killed by Lannister men. When Edmure commanded they bring him BF, I assumed he was talking to his own people. 

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5 hours ago, NutBurz said:

1-He has their loyalty as a knight until he commands them to act against their liege.

2-He has no friends, clearly. He has people obeying hierarchy. The show shows us that. He doesn´t walk with people around him, he´s not framed with anyone particularly at his side, the men are not willing to keep the gates closed. Even if he had the sympathy of footsoldiers, they were clearly not prepared to begin "civil war" over mistreating their lord.

If he meets Edmure by the gate and tells the men to contain him, he´d die a traitor´s death.

3-It´s not like he didn´t care. He was just willing to sacrifice him. Over his honor. Turns out Blackfish is simply not quite the hero some people might have hoped he was.

4-No, he didn´t. He makes it clear his niece is pretty much a stranger, not more family than Riverrun is his home. He died fighting for the freedom of his house against Lannister men, not fighting his own brethren because he ordered them to arrest their Lord. Why would it be any more honorable to die fighting a Stark´s war in a foreign land, for a foregneir´s home that they lost because they left, not even because it was really taken from them.

He died fighting not to hand his home to the people he knew as his enemies. He´s not aware he´s supposed to be a plot device.

Showfish was not portrayed in the same shining light as Bookfish. But let's break down the general situation:

1) Whether or not the help Sansa. This comes down to a basic issue of how loyal are lieges to their lord? We've seen the Freys show indifference to their lord and most Baratheon bannermen did not follow Robert's legitimate heir. Certainly, Showfish castigated Edmure for referring to Robb by name, so one would think he should be all about loyalty. On the other hand, Sansa's request was also quite unfair, to ask a liege to abandon ownership of his castle for the (seemingly futile) effort of Sansa to retake Rickon's her castle. Ultimately, it probably comes down to how defensible RR is -- which we, the viewers, don't really know.

2) Regarding the threats to kill Edmure, Showfish probably played it as well as he could have. Showing feigned indifference to the fate of Edmure could be viewed as the best way not to get him killed. Of course, Showfish's later actions demonstrated that the indifference was not feigned.

3) As for taking Jaime's offer, why should Showfish have done so? Jaime has demonstrated himself to be a serial oathbreaker and the Frey's have no reason to allow the Tully army to safely withdraw. While we, the viewers, might think that Jaime would keep his word to Brienne, there is no reason for Showfish to think so. The Lannisters were much more likely to keep their word when Tywin was running the show.

4) Where this all falls apart is when Showfish refuses to open the gates to Edmure. This makes no sense and obliterates the honor of Showfish. I don't think the Tully troops would turn on the legendary commander Bookfish, even for Edmure. But Showfish was a different kind of cat.

5) The decision to die rather than fleeing to help Sansa was moronic but fitting for the cad who was Showfish. We won't miss him.

6) As for Edmure, if he was a weakling that forfeited his uncle and troops to save a child he never knew (and did not know for a fact existed), he's a weak-minded fool, which may be consistent with his character to date. But it's difficult to know whether he made the right move because we don't know what deal he may have struck with Jaime or his reasons for trusting Jaime. If he saved all of the Tully men from near certain death, it was a noble, if somewhat dishonorable, action.

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On 6/15/2016 at 3:47 PM, RedShirt47 said:

I agree. Edmure martyring himself and his family would not have achieved much.

Blackfish and Tully men could have helped in the North and then the North could have helped the Riverlands in return. You're going to need a Northern army to seige The Twins from that side in order to bring the Freys to heel.

And one day the lanister army will come for Sansa's head. I believe the prick will declare neutrality.

Maybe blackfish saw the big picture. If he surrenders riverrun and marches north, all he is doing is buying time. Next the lannisters will march north. Again it is the same situation.

As far as he knows Lysa is dead and the vale has no suport for starks or tullys. The kingslayer is not a "changed" person. At that moment of time, I agree with Blackfish

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