[Book Spoilers] Jaime & Brienne- What's going on?

[Le Cygne]

43 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

oh yes, good point. Maybe during s5 it was only Jaime that remembered Brienne onscreen but she might have thought about him too. And when they are together they talk about their past as well.

And about the woman desiring, that is totally true. Next season they could make her seem to enjoy Tormund's flirting, but I don't think they will go that way. But it should be a must if they wanted them together.

By the way, JB has been established in the show. And now that Cersei has gone mad, they are less obstacles in their love.

Yeah, she knows what she wants now, and it ain't Tormund. Like, dude, you are no Jaime Lannister. The funny thing is before, she would have thought that as a compliment! How her opinion of Jaime has changed...

And I think there's hope in the heart of every lover, for the longest time, and she's still deep down inside got that little flicker of hope, and there's nothing she can do to extinguish it. There's more to this story.

[Meera of Tarth]

Yes! Hope deep inside!

Who do you think will make the move?

Or how do you think it could play out next season?/books?

[Le Cygne]

4 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Yes! Hope deep inside!

Who do you think will make the move?

Or how do you think it could play out next season?/books?

I think they will be brought together, probably in the Riverlands (which is where there book story is taking place as far as we know). And they will be alone by some plot development. And Jaime will make the move. If they are smart, they will add some humor to the scene. NCW is a funny guy, and they have great chemistry, so that will break the ice.

[Meera of Tarth]

I also think Jaime will be the one.

And maybe he will directly (or indirectly but in a secure manner) ask her what she wants.

For that to happen they would need to talk about Cersei before; not nrcessarily in the same scene (I hope).

[Le Cygne]

3 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I also think Jaime will be the one.

And maybe he will directly (or indirectly but in a secure manner) ask her what she wants.

For that to happen they would need to talk about Cersei before; not nrcessarily in the same scene (I hope).

Oh yeah, he won't do anything she doesn't want. But I think she'll make it clear she wants him. The opposite of what she did with Tormund.

[Meera of Tarth]

8 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Oh yeah, he won't do anything she doesn't want. But I think she'll make it clear she wants him. The opposite of what she did with Tormund.

Jaime will need to know if she wants him. I have the feeling he will ask her and then everything will flow naturally.

[Cron]

Great, great conversation in this thread, I just spent about a half hour reading just to catch up since I was last here just a few hours ago.

I think some fans really, really want to see Jaime and Brienne together, but I'm sorry, I just don't see it happening, except as mutual admiration from afar, I guess.

And even if they DO get together, it will be short lived, I'm totally convinced of it.  Jaime IS going to die.  He is a tragic character, with a tragic history, which is really ironic cuz he was born with SO many advantages in life.

But I believe Brienne is NOT going to die, and I don't believe she's going to be left to live "miserably ever after," my words.  I maintain my prediction that she's going to end up with Tormund.  My guess is that before the series ends, Tormund is going to surprise some people, and show more depth than we've yet seen from him in books or show, and very likely display his own heroism and strength of character, which he's already done to some extent.  Can anybody think of anything bad to say about Tormund???  I can't.  Wish I could say the same for Jaime, but it's just not true.

It's kind of ironic to me that it seems some people are reading a LOT into Brienne's initial reactions to Tormund.   What should we be expecting, love at first sight?  Oh, sorry, Tormund's not as pretty as Jaime Lannister, who looks like Prince Charming come to life, so Tormund just won't do, I guess.  Kind of funny that even Brienne may feel this way, since she herself has been judged harshly by others b/c of her outward appearance all her life  And what, now she won't even give Tormund a chance?  Cuz he's not as handsome as Jaime "Prince Charming" Lannister?

My friends, I'm sorry, but Brienne and Jaime are NOT going to live happily ever after.  Jaime is going to die, and I'd rather see Brienne with Tormund than continue to be sad and lonely, which she has been already, pretty much all her life. I don't want Brienne's story to end with her pining away for years for a man she can't have, cuz he's dead.

By the way, it's probably worth noting that I'm a HUGE fan of Jaime Lannister as a character, although I don't support everything he's done of course, and I'm a HUGE fan of Brienne of Tarth, and a big Tormund fan, so I don't believe I'm "playing favorites" here.

[Le Cygne]

And some really, really want to see her with Tormund. But let's talk story.

1. Brienne wants Jaime. That's what matters. What does Brienne want.

2. Tormund has done some truly horrible things on the show. Just ask Olly.

3. No one said anything about happily ever after. Or forever alone.

4. Tormund's looks are fine. She's just already in love with someone else.

[Cron]

19 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

And some really, really want to see her with Tormund. But let's talk story.

1. Brienne wants Jaime. That's what matters. What does Brienne want.

2. Tormund has done some truly horrible things on the show. Just ask Olly.

3. No one said anything about happily ever after.

1.  Brienne wants Jaime. Yeah, that's true, but Jaime is going to die.  If I'm wrong about that, and Jaime lives and he and Brienne live happily ever after, then okay, I'm fine with that, but I'm utterly convinced that's NOT going to happen.   Jaime's story in ASOIAF is a lot bigger than a possible budding romance with Brienne.  He has a much bigger role to play, and he will play it.

2.  Fair point about Tormund being present when Olly's village was raided and his family was killed.  Very fair point, thanks for the reminder, seriously.   Having said that, Khal Drogo is loved by a lot of fans, and he did things as bad if not far worse on a regular basis.  I'm certainly NOT defending these terrible things that were done by Tormund and Drogo, just pointing out that fans CAN love a character who has done terrible things.  My goodness, Jaime Lannister himself has done many terrible things in his life, no doubt.  In the show, he murdered his own cousin just to try to get out of "jail," and I don't hear anybody here claiming that should make him unacceptable as a romantic partner for Brienne.

3.  Regarding "no one said anything about happily ever after."   Okay, cool, but see my last couple of paragraphs in my post above.  I'd rather see some hope for a happy future for Brienne than thinking she's just going to waste away the rest of her life pining over dead Jaime Lannister, and I didn't pick Tormund as the rebound guy, but I have a feeling the show runners did.  I DON'T believe the scenes with Tormund and Brienne are just comic relief.

Again, I think it's worth stressing I'm a huge fan of all three characters, as characters in a story, but I want to see Brienne's story ending happily, and I think it WILL, rather than it ending with her moping away in a state of indefinite, prolonged misery and loneliness.

[Le Cygne]

No one said she'd pine away, either. There's no rebound, because she's in love with Jaime, and that story is still ongoing. Tormund is a plot device.

[Meera of Tarth]

even if the ending was with Tormund..(or anyone else) I didn't say she wouldn't move on.

but she would take her time.

And regarding the show I can't see how they could do that given that there are only7+6/8 episodes left and JB is still in progress and hasn't happened yet. Jaime won't die next season, I suppose.

So that new couple should happen in the very last episodes ( or even the last).

It's too quickly.

[Le Cygne]

10 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

even if the ending was with Tormund..(or anyone else) I didn't say she wouldn't move on.

but she would take her time.

And regarding the show I can't see how they could do that given that there are only7+6/8 episodes left and JB is still in progress and hasn't happened yet. Jaime won't die next season, I suppose.

So that new couple should happen in the very last episodes ( or even the last).

It's too quickly.

Yeah, there's a difference between alone and miserable forever and taking her time to move on. She's not in any hurry to get married anyway, falling in love with Jaime is not something she expected to happen. So she'd take her time.

And the focus has been Jaime and Brienne for several seasons, and it's still ongoing, that last scene was hardly, well, this is over and done with. They were both looking at each other with longing when they parted.

[Wall Flower]

2 hours ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

@Darksky

Thanks for the shout out.

I think the people are too harsh on Jaime simply because Cersei acts differently, which I think is weird.

There are, I think, 3 (ish) moments in S5 and S6 that are (potentially) worrisome about his character arc.  I'd like to go through each one and talk about why I think each one is not such a problem.  

1) When Jaime says he'll kill Tyrion if he ever sees him again (s5...forget which Ep)

2) When Jaime says to Cersei that no one else matters but them in S6E1

3) When Jaime tells Edmure that he loves Cersei and he'll kill every Tully if he has to in S6E8

1) is understandable, since Tyrion just killed Jaime's father...  Maybe show!Jaime doesn't even know about what Tywin put Tyrion through, so doesn't understand how justified it is.  Jaime does have some dark thoughts about Tyrion and Tywin's death in his first AFFC chapter, though mostly they are to blame himself.  I guess that the show runners need (for plot reasons) for Jaime and Tyrion to have some conflict when they reunite.  Since they left out Tysha, then the negative feelings have to come from Jaime (because Tyrion has no reason at all to be upset at Jaime). 

2) Cersei JUST found out their daughter is dead.  And then, she acted like she was in despair.  This is an emotion that is almost alien for Cersei to express.  Jaime wants to say something to get her to return to herself.  This is the kind of thing that she would say to him, in the past.  He is echoing it back.  It's more than obvious that he doesn't believe what he's saying, given A) Aerys.  B ) his actions in defense of the Tyrells, Brienne, and others throughout the Season C) his shock at what she did in the end of the season. 

We've discussed 3) a lot in this thread.  Jaime is "playing the Kingslayer" in order to convince Edmure he is serious.  It's a Bluff, just like in the book.  I JUST reread the book scene last night and Jaime is more of a bastard there than in the show.  Both in what he's thinking and in what he's saying.

Anyway, I don't know what else people have to be upset at Jaime for.  Other than those 3 things he SAID (not DID), Jaime didn't do anything objectionable, IMO.  He "worked with Cersei" seems to be the general trend of people's annoyance, but AGAIN, Cersei is acting differently than in the book, where she is constantly insulting him to his face, and sleeping around with like 2 different people.  So what exactly is it that doesn't make sense??   I don't know.

I really like Jaime as a character and I absolutely agree that he is drawn to Brienne, both romantically and because she reminds him of the knight that young Jaime wanted to be (although the knight stuff is more book Jaime than show Jaime, unfortunately).

However, Jaime is not being a good guy in the Riverlands, however much the book version likes to kid himself that he is doing good. He's not peacefully resolving the situation in the Riverlands, he's subjugating the region. He might be bluffing Edmure and trying to avoid bloodshed at Riverrun but he is still stealing Edmure's castle (Cat and the Blackfish's family home) to give to the very people who conspired to murder Cat, Robb and a lot of others who thought they were peacefully attending a wedding. Just because he feels bad about it, doesn't equal redemption. If anything, the fact that he despises the Freys (and Sybelle Westerling in the books) shows that he hasn't really faced up to his own complicity in the worst actions of the Lannister regime.

I really like the idea of a Jaime/Brienne romantic relationship but I still think that Jaime has a lot of unresolved baggage and it may not be so easy to get away from his Lannister identity or his past with Cersei.

[Cron]

58 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

No one said she'd pine away, either. There's no rebound, because she's in love with Jaime, and that story is still ongoing. Tormund is a plot device.

No one said she'd pine away?  Okay, I was the one who started using the word "pining," fine, but I believe there are people basically talking about her taking years to mourn Jaime to get over him.

Wow.  To me, that seems like more precious years of her life wasted, and to me that would be a real shame , cuz I believe she's already missed out on so much up to the point inher life she's already at.  I really hope that Brienne's story, in the current run, ends up for a lot better than that, cuz I think she deserves a lot better

Also, the rebound I've mentioned is not now, the rebound will be after Jaime dies.

[Le Cygne]

She's 18 or 19 in the books, and in no hurry to get married. She fell in love with Jaime, that's not the sort of thing that will happen often for her, but it may happen again if he dies. But I bet it will be just as slow a burn with the next guy. It's clear to me Tormund is there for contrast with the way she feels with Jaime. It's a common plot device in romances, and the author does it in the books for this story, and for other romances, too. After this, Jaime and Brienne had some big moments together, that were very different. It goes deep with them...

[Cron]

3 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

She's 18 or 19 in the books, and in no hurry to get married. She fell in love with Jaime, that's not the sort of thing that will happen often for her, but it may happen again if he dies. But I bet it will be just as slow a burn with the next guy. It's clear to me Tormund is there for contrast with the way she feels with Jaime. It's a common plot device in romances, and the author does it in the books for this story, and for other romances, too. After this, Jaime and Brienne had some big moments together, that were very different. It goes deep with them...

Brienne is 18 or 19 in the books?  Wow, I didn't realize that.

I guess a lot of my views go through the prism of my very strong belief that Jaime is going to die.  I'm so convinced of it, that I'm already looking beyond it.

And I think Brienne's story is going to end on a happy note, and Tormund seems to be the guy the show runners are giving us, so that's that, in my mind.

But maybe I'm wrong, I certainly admit that's possible.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

48 minutes ago, Cron said:

Brienne is 18 or 19 in the books?  Wow, I didn't realize that.

Yah she's a lot older.  But we should probably be considering show Briennes age which is mid to late 20s I guess (Jaime is ~40 in the show, ~30 in the book).  

48 minutes ago, Cron said:

I guess a lot of my views go through the prism of my very strong belief that Jaime is going to die.  I'm so convinced of it, that I'm already looking beyond it.

I am also convinced of this BUT I don't think it will be until late in Season 8, giving very little time for any other Brienne ending besides her continuing to serve as a knight 

48 minutes ago, Cron said:

And I think Brienne's story is going to end on a happy note, and Tormund seems to be the guy the show runners are giving us, so that's that, in my mind.

But maybe I'm wrong, I certainly admit that's possible.

*shrug* you could be right. There are Plenty of people that read the books who think that Brienne might even end up with Ser Hyle.  It seems to be sort of a "why not him?" Kind of thing in both cases though.  

[A spoon of knife and fork]

15 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

I really like Jaime as a character and I absolutely agree that he is drawn to Brienne, both romantically and because she reminds him of the knight that young Jaime wanted to be (although the knight stuff is more book Jaime than show Jaime, unfortunately).

However, Jaime is not being a good guy in the Riverlands, however much the book version likes to kid himself that he is doing good. He's not peacefully resolving the situation in the Riverlands, he's subjugating the region.

Jaime is dealing with the classic problem that he always has been - which duty should come first?

By securing the Riverlands to the Freys, Jaime is honoring a promise made by his father.  In a Feudal society, titles as well as duties are inherited.  

Secondly, he was commanded to do this duty by his King.

Finally, in the book Riverrun is basically the last hold out in this war.  If they surrender then the Kings army can get back to protecting the people (instead of murdering them) and the the people can get back to collecting crops and preparing for winter.  Jaimes duty to protect the weak and helpless may be facilitated by the surrender of Riverrun (BF kicked out all the smallfolk so he's not protecting them either).

On the other side of it you have Jaimes promise not to raise arms against Tully nor Stark.  

you also have the duty every knight has to "act with honor".  Which means NOT doing things like supporting evil guest-right breaking fiends, or threatening to catapult babies or the like. 

Hes going to be breaking some promise either he made or he's honoring for someone else.

15 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

 he hasn't really faced up to his own complicity in the worst actions of the Lannbister regime.

I think he is a bit stuck here, yes.  He now is a bit freer to act in the future because A) Tommen is dead and b ) Cersei is a despot.  Jaime doesn't have duty to the crown any longer.

15 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

I really like the idea of a Jaime/Brienne romantic relationship but I still think that Jaime has a lot of unresolved baggage and it may not be so easy to get away from his Lannister identity or his past with Cersei.

If it was easy that wouldn't be good drama.  

Tyrion will probably be helpful in the break from Cersei.  He is after all a Lannister too. 

[A spoon of knife and fork]

17 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

 

I don't want to go off-topic but in my opinion  the thing I didn't like about Jaime in KG is the fact that he was acting like the "puppet" of Cersei, instead of his lover/brother, and didn't investigate enough Cersei's trial. But we already discussed that, with similar and also opposite points of view.

Is there some specific scenes where you think he is "acting like a puppet?"  Besides going to riverlands and what he told cersei in ep 1?

17 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

There is a thread about that to talk about that particular point.

Yikes, thanks for the reminder why I don't read these forums while the show is running.  The OP seems to be speculating about material from ep 1 and ep 2 alone.  And ignores any interpretation of events other than a "the sky is falling Jaime is now evil" one.

i find basically all of the commentary in that thread to be shallow and reactionary.  It even includes rants about out of context material from trailers... If there's a particular argument which you'd like to discuss From there I'm interested to hear it.

17 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

If in s7 Jaime doesn't move on I'll be frustrated, but the last scene of s7 game me hope because the relationship between Cersei and Jaime seems to be  about to be broken, and the actors agree on that in the interviews. I would have preferred it to occur before, but I can wait tillnext season

He will have to deal with her to some extent next season.  So please don't start another rant thread if he doesn't kill or abandon her instantly please.  

[Meera of Tarth]

23 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Is there some specific scenes where you think he is "acting like a puppet?"  Besides going to riverlands and what he told cersei in ep 1?

Yikes, thanks for the reminder why I don't read these forums while the show is running.  The OP seems to be speculating about material from ep 1 and ep 2 alone.  And ignores any interpretation of events other than a "the sky is falling Jaime is now evil" one.

i find basically all of the commentary in that thread to be shallow and reactionary.  It even includes rants about out of context material from trailers... If there's a particular argument which you'd like to discuss From there I'm interested to hear it.

 

As I said, I don't want to go off-topic but...the one that comes to my mind is when they are in The Small Council, for instance. 

Quote

He will have to deal with her to some extent next season.

Yes, I know the break-up won't happen in the first episode but I'll have patience because JB will happen, and the waiting will have been worth it (I hope)

In fact, Cersei and Jaime need to talk about what has happened. I'm sure both actors will do a great job. It's a moment I've been waiting for since I read Feast after s4.

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 So please don't start another rant thread if he doesn't kill or abandon her instantly please.  

I've only started 2 threads and none of them are rant threads. One is this and the other was about the connections between Smallville and Game of Thrones. They are on my profile.