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[Book Spoilers] Jaime & Brienne- What's going on?


Meera of Tarth

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1 hour ago, Cron said:

Oh, that first part is so sad.  "Years" of loneliness?!?!!?

I mean sure, of course I agree with the second part, that if she's not interested in anyone or is "not prepared" that's fine of course, but I think Brienne is prepared, and I'm hoping she can be with someone she's interested in so she does not have to suffer MORE years of loneliness.  Hasn't she already suffered enough loneliness??

That's really my point, not that I think Tormund is a better match than Jaime (cuz I don't), just that I believe Jaime is going to die, and I want Brienne to be happy, and I really don't think Tormund is all that bad a guy (in the show) compared to other possible matches that are out there.

Who else IS out there?? Are those our choices, years of loneliness or maybe, maybe, some sort of happiness with Tormund?  Cuz if so, I'd rather see Brienne happy.

Well, considering that She and Jaime are eachother's "love of my life" and that their love story is so epic to be developed in 4 books and not reached maturity yet <<how many romances in ASOIAF are like them out of the total of characters that have apeared? Not  many really, Jaime and Brienne is very important>>, I consider that Brienne will have to mourn that loss weeks, months or years (who knows how much time?), but surely she won't pick anyone two weeks after (that's what would happen in the show if she chooses Tormund and there is no "some years after" epilogue to explain that).

And if Jaime dies, I really wish she has a son/daughter from him.

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33 minutes ago, Cridefea said:

Brienne falls in love with handsome gallant men who are gentle and protective with her. Right know in the show I don't think there is someone with those features.

And this is another Goood reason.

Maybe in 20 years her type of man changes. Oh well, not really Even then.

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3 hours ago, Cron said:

Oh, that first part is so sad.  "Years" of loneliness?!?!!?

I mean sure, of course I agree with the second part, that if she's not interested in anyone or is "not prepared" that's fine of course, but I think Brienne is prepared, and I'm hoping she can be with someone she's interested in so she does not have to suffer MORE years of loneliness.  Hasn't she already suffered enough loneliness??

That's really my point, not that I think Tormund is a better match than Jaime (cuz I don't), just that I believe Jaime is going to die, and I want Brienne to be happy, and I really don't think Tormund is all that bad a guy (in the show) compared to other possible matches that are out there.

Who else IS out there?? Are those our choices, years of loneliness or maybe, maybe, some sort of happiness with Tormund?  Cuz if so, I'd rather see Brienne happy.

Why does she need to pair up with anybody to be happy?  Can't she be happy on her own without a man? I know--a shocking concept. Personally, I think she won't be lonely after Jaime dies having given birth to little Jaime or little Jaimette (see my predictions in an earlier post) and filling Jaime's Book of Brothers' page with loads of heroic deeds he did after dumping Cersei. 

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6 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I am of the opinion that if that  happens she will spend some years without anyone before settling with somebody else, somebody who she falls in love with, again; but she won't be with anyone if she doesn't want it or is not prepared.

Yeah, I don't know what the rush is, if she was that desperate to be married, she would have said yes to Hyle Hunt.

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5 hours ago, Cridefea said:

Brienne falls in love with handsome gallant men who are gentle and protective with her. Right know in the show I don't think there is someone with those features.

Well, I'm not suggesting she should settle for just anyone, just because some guy happens to be conveniently available.

But won't it be sad if Jaime dies and Brienne can't even find a decent companion?

Dunno exactly how old Brienne is supposed to be in the show, but Gwendoline Christie is, I believe, about 38, and I think it's safe to assume that in the show Brienne is supposed to be roughly that age (clearly, she's been aged up from the books, a lot more than most other characters, in fact)  

How many more years of lonelihess should Brienne have to endure?  She'll be past her child bearing years soon, if she's not already (especially on Planetos), I really don't want to see her have to endure more years of loneliness into her 40's, after she's already lived such a very lonely life..

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5 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Well, considering that She and Jaime are eachother's "love of my life" and that their love story is so epic to be developed in 4 books and not reached maturity yet <<how many romances in ASOIAF are like them out of the total of characters that have apeared? Not  many really, Jaime and Brienne is very important>>, I consider that Brienne will have to mourn that loss weeks, months or years (who knows how much time?), but surely she won't pick anyone two weeks after (that's what would happen in the show if she chooses Tormund and there is no "some years after" epilogue to explain that).

And if Jaime dies, I really wish she has a son/daughter from him.

Well, that's interesting food for thought, but please see my comment above about Brienne's likely age in the show.

Mid to late 30's, in all likelihood.   Gwen Christie is, as I understand it, about 38, and I don't think she's intended to portray a Brienne in her mid to late 20's.

Realistically, how much time does she have left?  Can she afford to mourn Jaime for years?   Find another guy and try to have kids in her 40's, in Westeros, where complications in child birth seem to be common even for women half that age or less?

Look, I'm not saying Jaime is going to die and Brienne is going to fall madly in love with Tormund 10 minutes later.   Who knows, maybe it will be something a lot more subtle and subdued, some hint that maybe she can find happiness with someone else.   Even that would be fairly satisfying to me, cuz there's NO WAY I see Jaime living past the series finale.  I think he is gonna die, he is on a tragic, tragic arc, this guy is NOT gonna live happily ever after, but Brienne just might, so I hope she does.

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3 hours ago, HanginginWesteros said:

Why does she need to pair up with anybody to be happy?  Can't she be happy on her own without a man? I know--a shocking concept. Personally, I think she won't be lonely after Jaime dies having given birth to little Jaime or little Jaimette (see my predictions in an earlier post) and filling Jaime's Book of Brothers' page with loads of heroic deeds he did after dumping Cersei. 

Hmmmm...maybe, I suppose.

I WOULD like to see Jaime's line live on, so that would be cool.  And I suppose that if that's enough to make Brienne happy, then that will very likely be enough to make me happy for her.

(Again, I hope nobody here thinks I have something against Jaime or Brienne, cuz I don't.  I am a huge fan of the Jaime Lannister character that GRRM created, although of course I always have to stress that I don't approve of everything that Jaime has done, obviously.  And I also believe I would rank Brienne higher on a list of my favorite characters than the vast majority of other fans.   Brienne might be top 5 for me, and is CERTAINLY top 10, which is very high for a supporting character in such an enormous cast in the books and show)

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Many actors are playing down in age on the show, I never saw her age stated on the show, but I doubt it's late 30's. She could marry Tormund and still be lonely, because he's not the guy for her. And why watch a romance still in progress, and already line her up with the next guy. Let the story play out.

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7 hours ago, Cron said:

Well, that's interesting food for thought, but please see my comment above about Brienne's likely age in the show.

Mid to late 30's, in all likelihood.   Gwen Christie is, as I understand it, about 38, and I don't think she's intended to portray a Brienne in her mid to late 20's.

Realistically, how much time does she have left?  Can she afford to mourn Jaime for years?   Find another guy and try to have kids in her 40's, in Westeros, where complications in child birth seem to be common even for women half that age or less?

 

Actors are playing younger versions of themselves, so she is in her middle thirties, at most.

How much time does she have left? Really?

First of all, as @HanginginWesteros suggest, I believe that IF Jaime dies and SHE and TORMUND don't, there is a great chance to have a baby from that man, so she wouldn't be soooo lonely (let's no forget that she still has a father who accepts her as who she is and is a heir of an island).

Secondly, she will have no hurry to find anybody else, and besides, she is still young. And, If she doesn't bear a child, her life won't end for that.

Thirdly, she has a whole life to find someone she wants. If she has denied tons of marriage prospects it's because a reason. It's because she wants someone she loves and someone who loves her back. And Tormund doesn't love her, he is just attracted to her. @Cron what makes you think that Tormund is "in love" with her? Of course we don't know but those three scenes suggest you that=? Really, love at first sight? To me it's just sexual attraction.

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Look, I'm not saying Jaime is going to die and Brienne is going to fall madly in love with Tormund 10 minutes later.   Who knows, maybe it will be something a lot more subtle and subdued, some hint that maybe she can find happiness with someone else.   Even that would be fairly satisfying to me, cuz there's NO WAY I see Jaime living past the series finale.  I think he is gonna die, he is on a tragic, tragic arc, this guy is NOT gonna live happily ever after, but Brienne just might, so I hope she does.

To hint at that, they should HURRY UP a lot. They should have a conversation, laugh, and she see her with other eyes, probably an smile. And even with that, it would be just a hint, no confirmed unless The showrunners decide to make an epilogue in the last episode of the show.

Moreover, she could find someone later and this person doesn't necessarily be Tormund. Why?

@Cron tell me something they have in common right now. SOmething deeper, based on what we know from both characters, not just attracttion looks from ONE SIDE while she clearly rejects his looks at this moment.

7 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Many actors are playing down in age on the show, I never saw her age stated on the show, but I doubt it's late 30's. She could marry Tormund and still be lonely, because he's not the guy for her.

And finally, that's another thing to take into account. If she marries Tormund now, she would be mor elonely that alone! And even more miserable.

@Cron I believe you like JB, but I challenge you to tell me what these two have in common than in some years after the supposed death of Jaime would fit Brienne's character, and how would the show made it clear, and also when. We can make the hypothesis that S6 has 6-8 episodes and Jaime dies 2 episodes before the ending.

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And why watch a romance still in progress, and already line her up with the next guy. Let the story play out.

@Le Cygne I agree with you! If they focus too much on that "Brienne+Tormund" then JB- that has still a lot to play- would be diminissed. 

@Cron Maybe you should take take that into consideration too, while thinking how Tormund+Brienne could work in an scene (when and how being believable) while Brienne still has big feelings for Jaimebefore/during and after he dies.

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I think everyone is being a bit hard on poor @Cron.  Certainly many stories have had less build up for future romantic interactions that have eventually occurred.  What sprung to mind for me was the whole Faramir - Eowyn thing at the end of RotK.  She's obsessed with Aragorn for 1.5 books (and in some ways, IMO, Brienne is written by GRRM to be a much more realistic vision of what an Eowyn-like character could be), but then Tolkien writes Houses of Healing after the main action is over and bam, now Eowyn and Faramir will be together.  Even though they never even met.  

Of course Tolkien was a less character-driven writer than GRRM so I would generally expect GRRM to do things a bit more slowly and organically.  But we can't say there is no precedent in literature for a character getting over the loss of someone they love and hints of them getting together with someone else at the end.  And I think that's what Cron is saying - that maybe what we'll see while Brienne is mourning Jaime, is some friendship building up between Tormund and her, assuming both of them are alive and Brienne is still with Sansa in the North (lots of assumptions there!).  Not that we'll see them making out or whatever.  Just some hints.  And they do have a lot in common, actually.  Both are very loyal people, who have good hearts.  Both are great warriors - for God's sake, they both bit off some dude's ear!!!  We also do have a deleted scene where Brienne and Sansa discuss Tormund, so it's being a bit willfully blind to say that there is NO groundwork at all.  Obviously there would have to be more scenes of them interacting to show this is possible but I think that's exactly what Cron is saying right??  

Even though I'm a huge fan of the Jaime - Brienne relationship I don't really believe in star-crossed love, or one true love or anything like that.  I think they are a great match for each other and they each helped each other grow as people.  But I equally think they are COMPLETELY DOOMED and I think that both of them know that, which is part of why it's so great...  

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45 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

I think everyone is being a bit hard on poor @Cron.  Certainly many stories have had less build up for future romantic interactions that have eventually occurred.  What sprung to mind for me was the whole Faramir - Eowyn thing at the end of RotK.  She's obsessed with Aragorn for 1.5 books (and in some ways, IMO, Brienne is written by GRRM to be a much more realistic vision of what an Eowyn-like character could be), but then Tolkien writes Houses of Healing after the main action is over and bam, now Eowyn and Faramir will be together.  Even though they never even met.  

Of course Tolkien was a less character-driven writer than GRRM so I would generally expect GRRM to do things a bit more slowly and organically.  But we can't say there is no precedent in literature for a character getting over the loss of someone they love and hints of them getting together with someone else at the end.  And I think that's what Cron is saying - that maybe what we'll see while Brienne is mourning Jaime, is some friendship building up between Tormund and her, assuming both of them are alive and Brienne is still with Sansa in the North (lots of assumptions there!).  Not that we'll see them making out or whatever.  Just some hints.  And they do have a lot in common, actually.  Both are very loyal people, who have good hearts.  Both are great warriors - for God's sake, they both bit off some dude's ear!!!  We also do have a deleted scene where Brienne and Sansa discuss Tormund, so it's being a bit willfully blind to say that there is NO groundwork at all.  Obviously there would have to be more scenes of them interacting to show this is possible but I think that's exactly what Cron is saying right??  

Even though I'm a huge fan of the Jaime - Brienne relationship I don't really believe in star-crossed love, or one true love or anything like that.  I think they are a great match for each other and they each helped each other grow as people.  But I equally think they are COMPLETELY DOOMED and I think that both of them know that, which is part of why it's so great...  

First of all, I think the thread reads like a decent, polite discussion and exchange of ideas, where both sides challenge and argument. Nothing out of the ordinary there - just claims being challenged and explained. And though I find Cron's arguments unconvincing for Brienne-Tormund, he seems to be holding up fine.

Here's what I find strange. People who used GRRM's book plot to point out that Tormund and Brienne is not happening were asked to discuss the show and not the books, but then tropish fast-track-solutions of others books by other authors are used to argument Brienne ending up with Tormund. If we're going for book arguments, I'd go with aSoIaF and not Lords of the Ring, especially since it has thousand characters, instead of a dozen.

ETA: deleted scene? Source?

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1 hour ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

 

Of course Tolkien was a less character-driven writer than GRRM so I would generally expect GRRM to do things a bit more slowly and organically.  But we can't say there is no precedent in literature for a character getting over the loss of someone they love and hints of them getting together with someone else at the end.  And I think that's what Cron is saying - that maybe what we'll see while Brienne is mourning Jaime, is some friendship building up between Tormund and her, assuming both of them are alive and Brienne is still with Sansa in the North (lots of assumptions there!).  Not that we'll see them making out or whatever.  Just some hints.  And they do have a lot in common, actually.  Both are very loyal people, who have good hearts.  Both are great warriors - for God's sake, they both bit off some dude's ear!!!  

 

Well, being good-hearted is not compelling to me. There are (or were) dozens of these type of people in the books and in the show: Jon, Podrick, Tommen, Loras, Edd, Davos...

Loyal ones, also a lot. I'd find it more convincing if she was paired with Podrick, at least they have a relationship and talk to each other (and I don't think there is a basis for that anyway).

And warriors, well, I think we should consider the question "who in ASOIAF is not a warrior"?

She could have a marrriage with Tormund, but being good-hearted and loyal wouldn't mean there are sparks between them, she would be miserable with a good-hearted husband. She could even love him like two friends love each other, but not the way a woman loves a man.

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We also do have a deleted scene where Brienne and Sansa discuss Tormund, so it's being a bit willfully blind to say that there is NO groundwork at all.  Obviously there would have to be more scenes of them interacting to show this is possible but I think that's exactly what Cron is saying right??  

Interesting, I didn't know about that scene. Do you have a source for that?I'd like to watch it.

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43 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

First of all, I think the thread reads like a decent, polite discussion and exchange of ideas, where both sides challenge and argument. Nothing out of the ordinary there - just claims being challenged and explained. And though I find Cron's arguments unconvincing for Brienne-Tormund, he seems to be holding up fine.

Here's what I find strange. People who used GRRM's book plot to point out that Tormund and Brienne is not happening were asked to discuss the show and not the books, but then tropish fast-track-solutions of others books by other authors are used to argument Brienne ending up with Tormund. If we're going for book arguments, I'd go with aSoIaF and not Lords of the Ring, especially since it has thousand characters, instead of a dozen.

ETA: deleted scene? Source?

at no point did I tell anyone that they shouldn't discuss the books so point your fingers elsewhere.

you yourself are constantly using other literature to support your arguments.  It's ridiculous for you to then turn around and claim my citing another book is somehow invalid.  

ETA: The deleted scene was mentioned by Sophie Turner And Gwen Christie in interviews: http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/game-of-thrones-season-6-gwendoline-christie-brienne-tormund-romance-deleted-scene-a7044541.html

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1 hour ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

 Obviously there would have to be more scenes of them interacting to show this is possible but I think that's exactly what Cron is saying right??  

 

Sorry, I forgot to mention that before. I know Cron was supporting Brienne+Tormund as the final ending; but I wondered how that could happen in the show. I asked @Cron how they could do it belieable, but in a concrete way, to discuss it: which scenes, when, which dialogue perhaps....with the hypothesis of Jaime dying in the last episodes (maybe only two episodes left). And that taking into consideration that Brienne has lost the love of her life.

 

9 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

ETA: The deleted scene was mentioned by Sophie Turner in an interview.  

Thanks. Do you have the source?

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39 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Well, being good-hearted is not compelling to me. There are (or were) dozens of these type of people in the books and in the show: Jon, Podrick, Tommen, Loras, Edd, Davos...

Brienne has directly interacted with none of these people except Davos (who is married?), and none of them has shown any particular interest in her.  

39 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Loyal ones, also a lot. I'd find it more convincing if she was paired with Podrick, at least they have a relationship and talk to each other (and I don't think there is a basis for that anyway).

Its would be very weird for them to turn their mentor/mentee relationship into a romance, IMO.  It's demonstrably platonic on both sides.

39 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

And warriors, well, I think we should consider the question "who in ASOIAF is not a warrior"?

Based on the book, we know that Brienne wants someone who is close to her in combat, and who also appreciates her for her skills. So far only Renly, Jaime, and Tormund have qualified.  It's not a bad start for him at any rate.

39 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

She could have a marrriage with Tormund, but being good-hearted and loyal wouldn't mean there are sparks between them, she would be miserable with a good-hearted husband.

Jaime is good hearted, in my opinion.  He is also loyal.  These are things that Brienne sees In him  and loves though others do not.  Why should being these things be points on Jaimes side but not Tormunds?  I'm just asking for a little consistency.  

Or are you saying that Brienne only poves Jaime because he's actually a bad guy?  Because I think quite the opposite.

39 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

She could even love him like two friends love each other, but not the way a woman loves a man.

How on earth do you know this?  Many people can be good for every person.  There is no "the one".  There are many "pretty goods" for every person.  

39 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Interesting, I didn't know about that scene. Do you have a source for that?I'd like to watch it.

See link in my reply to sweetsunray...

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19 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

at no point did I tell anyone that they shouldn't discuss the books so point your fingers elsewhere.

you yourself are constantly using other literature to support your arguments.  It's ridiculous for you to then turn around and claim my citing another book is somehow invalid.  

At no point did I claim that you said others shouldn't use the books. I said how one side arguments "no books" to the others, and then next on that same side someone whips out another series by another author. You explicitly portrayed yourself as wanting to help Cron's side of the discussion.

I knew you were gonig to try the second argument :D I do not use other literature to predict the outcome in the books. Never! (in fact I usually caution against making predictions based on outside sources explicitly, no matter how well an outside source is referenced or alluded to in the books) What I do is compare what has been written already to other literature, storytelling, etc. and I provide quotes for it. There is a humongous difference between "comparative literature analysis of what is written" and" using other books and stories to predict what will be the final come". As far as I am aware I have only made 2 predictions: that the people Ned damns in the dungeon will all die, and that there will be a natural disaster in the Vale + attack by the Clans of the Mountains of the Moon led by Timett, son of Timett and that this will be the end of Littlefinger and the Andal house of Arryn. While the first prediction occurs in an essay with regards to the underwordly lexicon and I use many mythological examples to show how the Starks are underworld rulers, I actually use book quotes and the lexicon is based on book quotes. I could leave out Persephone and Melinoe and Dionysus and my prediction would still stand. The second prediction is purely based on book quotes alone.

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2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

At no point did I claim that you said others shouldn't use the books. I said how one side arguments "no books" to the others, and then next on that same side someone whips out another series by another author.

Side?  "I am on no ones side... For no one is in my side..." :)

I actually don't personally think Tormund and Brienne is going anywhere.  I just don't think it's completely ridiculous, in the case that Jaime is dead.  

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I knew you were gonig to try the second argument :D I do not use other literature to predict the outcome in the books. Never! What I do is compare what has been written already to other literature, storytelling, etc. and I provide quotes for it. There is a humongous difference between comparative literature analysis of what is written and using other books and stories to predict what will come.

And similarly I am not in any way predicting that Tormund and Brienne must happen because Faramir and Eowyn did.  I'm only saying that if they did, the parallels/comparisons would be clear.  D&D can choose to go that direction and it can make sense.  They can also choose another direction.  

I don't see it as much different from interpreting Jaime and Brienne in the context of the central relationship in BatB.  Of course the main difference, and the one we've been talking about, is that Jaime and Brienne have interacted a lot more.  Which could change.

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34 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Brienne has directly interacted with none of these people except Davos (who is married?), and none of them has shown any particular interest in her.  

Its would be very weird for them to turn their mentor/mentee relationship into a romance, IMO.  It's demonstrably platonic on both sides.

Based on the book, we know that Brienne wants someone who is close to her in combat, and who also appreciates her for her skills. So far only Renly, Jaime, and Tormund have qualified.  It's not a bad start for him at any rate.

 

Well, I don't particularly want to discuss the three adjectives you thought would be good for the new love of Brienne: good-hearted, loyal and good in combat; since my conterargument was on a deeper level. I suggested that a person who is in love with another needs more than a good-hearted, loyal husband, or someone who she might enjoy one of her hobbies with: in this case combat. They have to "click" and these have to be shown in the prose or in the scenes of a show. We could also add more adjectives to the list: tall, brave, handsome.....but sparks are always needed.

Anyway, as for the interaction part: he has interacted with Jon as much as she has interacted with Tormund, IMO. (I'm not saying Jon is going to be her new love) but at this point, she seems to like him as much as Tormund (or more). We know she doesn't trust Jon but wanted to find people to fight for him, and in the case of Tormund, she doesn't like his looks. Your second statement, about Podrick and Brienne, I actually agreed with you in my comment in parentheses: I don't think there is a basis for a potential romance between them, and I know their type of relationship. However, I'd find more belieable to develop a romance in 10 years time with him than with Tormund, since to have a relationship you need to be companions first, and my point was about the 0 words interaction that Tormund and Brienne have shared until now in the show, and absolute zero they have in the books until now. 

And my point about combat was that she could find any other warrior, apart from Tormund. (provided that there is chemistry).

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4 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

I actually don't personally think Tormund and Brienne is going anywhere.  I just don't think it's completely ridiculous, in the case that Jaime is dead.  

 

5 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

And similarly I am not in any way predicting that Tormund and Brienne must happen because Faramir and Eowyn did.  I'm only saying that if they did, the parallels/comparisons would be clear.

So, you were making a hypothetical comparison? Thanks for clarifying.

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