[Book Spoilers] Jaime & Brienne- What's going on?

[A spoon of knife and fork]

16 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Sorry, I forgot to mention that before. I know Cron was supporting Brienne+Tormund as the final ending; but I wondered how that could happen in the show. I asked @Cron how they could do it belieable, but in a concrete way, to discuss it: which scenes, when, which dialogue perhaps....with the hypothesis of Jaime dying in the last episodes (maybe only two episodes left). And that taking into consideration that Brienne has lost the love of her life.

There's just way too many what ifs to make any kind of prediction about what will or won't happen.  Thus I don't really understand why there's such hostility to this concept. 

will Jaime die?  And when?  Could be anywhere from early S 7 to the last episode.

where will Brienne go?  If she goes north right away, there could be Brienne - Tormund friendship before Jaime dies.  If not, then not so much.  

Will Tormund die?  His death could be useful for plot development in the north.  Id put his risk of death as equal to Jaimes.  

Will Brienne die?  It's possible for sure.  

[Meera of Tarth]

16 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

 

Jaime is good hearted, in my opinion.  He is also loyal.  These are things that Brienne sees In him  and loves though others do not.  Why should being these things be points on Jaimes side but not Tormunds?  I'm just asking for a little consistency.  

Or are you saying that Brienne only poves Jaime because he's actually a bad guy?  Because I think quite the opposite.

 

 

Oh yes, she admires the loyalty of Jaime, but we have to take into account that they share a story together, and she loves that because she admires knighthood. And being loyal is one of the ideals of knights. Brienne's story is about wanting to be a knight, and being the knightest of knights without being one, and inspiring Jaime to become one again because of her purity of spirit.

Tormund is not a knight. He is loyal to Jon, but it's a different kind of loyalty.

Quote

How on earth do you know this?  Many people can be good for every person.  There is no "the one".  There are many "pretty goods" for every person.  

This is a novel. Brienne and Jaime have an epic romance. One person might fall in love with with 20 other candidates, but in this novel, Jaime is the one. My point with the one (as the new love) was to emphasize that Brienne is a person who doesn't fall in love quickly, on the contrary. She is very idealistic, and she wouldn't fall in love with Tormund just because of looks, or he being a warrior. After Jaime dying, she would need something at the same level, or close.

I agree that she can find love with a simple person, but in that case that man would be a common human being, but not a warrior, who is simmilar to Jaime but it's not Jaime, because no one would be like Jaime.

[Meera of Tarth]

20 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

There's just way too many what ifs to make any kind of prediction about what will or won't happen.  Thus I don't really understand why there's such hostility to this concept. 

will Jaime die?  And when?  Could be anywhere from early S 7 to the last episode..  

@A spoon of knife and fork I am not being hostile to the concept. I surely wouldn't use that word to describe that, it's only that some people just disagree with that bc we have only been shown 3 scenes between them. It's ok to agree and disagree about things in a debate thread.

We are just making an exchange of ideas and I accept Cron's view, but I'd like to know his opinions on how this could happen in the show to discuss them in a deeper way. I think it's interesting to know how that could happen, eventhough I'd prefer not to happen, personally.

That was a personal challenge to our contributor, because he was the first to bring up that idea, and I suggested Cron an hypothesis of when Jaime could die, but he can bring up another.

You can suggest another if you want to discuss that point. The challenge was to know when and how this could happen, as I stated before.

Quote

where will Brienne go?  If she goes north right away, there could be Brienne - Tormund friendship before Jaime dies.  If not, then not so much.  

Will Tormund die?  His death could be useful for plot development in the north.  Id put his risk of death as equal to Jaimes.  

Will Brienne die?  It's possible for sure

Yes, they could have a friendship, but I don't think she will go North.

But if she goes North, then, how will the BatB story with Jaime arrive to the maturity?

If Brienne meets Tormund first, and then return to Jaime,  how many scenes between Tormund and Brienne would be needed before she and Jaime kissing/or something more? She won't be thinking of Tormund before the climax with Jaime.

If it's after, my point is that she would still be thinking of Jaime, even more...

[Meera of Tarth]

I've just read the article.

Gwen says:

Quote

“First of all, Kristofer is absolutely hilarious,” she toldEntertainment Weekly. “I don’t think I’ve been in a scene on Game of Thrones when it’s been everything I can do to stop myself from laughing. The way he was behaving toward me was just extraordinary.”

Quote

She continued: “I enjoyed Brienne being put in that position of feeling awkward and not wanting the attention. That was a very fun thing to play. He’s a wildling, he’s very sensual and animal-like and very forthright with his emotions and feelings — which is really the opposite of her. 

“I enjoyed trying to navigate that and the beauty of her embarrassment. She can totally deal with the situation, and with him, but she’s just so embarrassed about it.”

She emphasizes that the scene was for fun, it was hilarious the way they made it.

Then she says they are opposite-beings!!!! and she is embarrassed for that!! That's what we were talking about: She is thinking of Jaime and doesn't like the situation, Tormund is not her type: he is not a knight!!!!

and about the deleted scene:

Quote

Christie also revealed there was a Tormund-Brienne scene that didn’t make the cut; apparently it featured Sansa “going Mean Girls” and teasing Brienne about the Wildling suitor, leaving “the powerful warrior totally flustered.”

So Sansa was going "Mean Girls" teasing about Tormund. OK.. What is my take? It was more of the same that happens in the books, when Ser Hyle goes crazy with Brienne. She is flustered. We don't know the exact reason of that. I suppose it is because  Sansa will start asking her questions and by denying that, Brienne might reveal she is in love with another man.

I don't think she is nervous because she has fallen in love with Tormund at all. The previous scenes + what Gwen says clearly means the opposite.

It's about high school friends talking about: X likes you...he is "handsome" and girl Y saying: "really? (doesn't like him") and the friend continue asking the same.....until  Brienne says yes, so as not to reveal her feelings for Jaime (classic) or Sansa discovering she is into Jaime (classic too).

I think there is a reason why they cut that. Not to confuse the viewers or not to tease too much with JB because they already had the episode "No One".

If they really wanted to hint at Tormund+Brienne they wouldn't have cut that scene. Never!!!!! Time is gold in GOT.

[Cridefea]

I think we're discussing here just because we have different views about the real reason of Tormund/Brienne scenes. For me they added them to the show only because we can see that Brienne can be an attractive woman for someone. It could be preparatory for some "romance", probably with Jaime. In books, we have read something about Brienne's sexual appeal, in the show it's difficult to point out.

Moreover I'm still not convinced Brienne will manage to return to Sansa and Jon.

 

1 hour ago, Cron said:

But won't it be sad if Jaime dies and Brienne can't even find a decent companion?

In long term I think she will marry someone, I agree with you.

[Le Cygne]

14 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

First of all, I think the thread reads like a decent, polite discussion and exchange of ideas, where both sides challenge and argument. Nothing out of the ordinary there - just claims being challenged and explained. And though I find Cron's arguments unconvincing for Brienne-Tormund, he seems to be holding up fine.

Here's what I find strange. People who used GRRM's book plot to point out that Tormund and Brienne is not happening were asked to discuss the show and not the books, but then tropish fast-track-solutions of others books by other authors are used to argument Brienne ending up with Tormund. If we're going for book arguments, I'd go with aSoIaF and not Lords of the Ring, especially since it has thousand characters, instead of a dozen.

ETA: deleted scene? Source?

Agreed. Disparaging a romance in another book series as a justification for Tormund and Brienne, not exactly a good argument. And it's not even an accurate representation of the other romance, so where do we go from there, start discussing a different book series?

The LOTR example, there was indeed a a story basis for the romance, both characters were developed in ways that led them to each other, as a perfect match. Eowyn comes to a realization about her true nature, which is perfectly in line with Faramir. And while brief, the story was beautifully written. There is nothing to indicate anything of the sort with Brienne and Tormund. Where is the character development that leads them to the same point of view? They were randomly thrown together when LSH was cut.

As for discussing ASOIAF, this is an adaptation, and the showrunners and producers have repeatedly indicated many story points will indeed be the same (see my signature for a couple of examples, but there are many more), so the books are relevant to discussion. So of course it's something to consider that there's nothing for Tormund and Brienne in the books. They will most likely never even meet in the books. And it is relevant that Brienne is still young, and has time to figure out what she wants in terms of romance.

Also the deleted scene seems to just be a bit of teasing...

[Le Cygne]

Here's the director on the Tormund scenes, I think they were trying to put this out there, and it's similar to what's done with Hyle Hunt in the books, he says her lips were made for kissing, and proposes (and she turns him down):

Quote

That was definitely written into the script, however we did play around a bit with it on set, tonally. I will say I was amazed by the reception that flirtation received on the internet. It was surprising certainly because Brienne’s character has been driven largely by duty and honor, and we’ve never gotten to seen her as a sexual being. Torment, is… well he’s a Wildling, so enough said there. It was a very unexpected development.

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/4k5htd/i_am_daniel_sackheim_im_a_television_director_and/

[Cron]

5 hours ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

I think everyone is being a bit hard on poor @Cron.  Certainly many stories have had less build up for future romantic interactions that have eventually occurred.  What sprung to mind for me was the whole Faramir - Eowyn thing at the end of RotK.  She's obsessed with Aragorn for 1.5 books (and in some ways, IMO, Brienne is written by GRRM to be a much more realistic vision of what an Eowyn-like character could be), but then Tolkien writes Houses of Healing after the main action is over and bam, now Eowyn and Faramir will be together.  Even though they never even met.  

Of course Tolkien was a less character-driven writer than GRRM so I would generally expect GRRM to do things a bit more slowly and organically.  But we can't say there is no precedent in literature for a character getting over the loss of someone they love and hints of them getting together with someone else at the end.  And I think that's what Cron is saying - that maybe what we'll see while Brienne is mourning Jaime, is some friendship building up between Tormund and her, assuming both of them are alive and Brienne is still with Sansa in the North (lots of assumptions there!).  Not that we'll see them making out or whatever.  Just some hints.  And they do have a lot in common, actually.  Both are very loyal people, who have good hearts.  Both are great warriors - for God's sake, they both bit off some dude's ear!!!  We also do have a deleted scene where Brienne and Sansa discuss Tormund, so it's being a bit willfully blind to say that there is NO groundwork at all.  Obviously there would have to be more scenes of them interacting to show this is possible but I think that's exactly what Cron is saying right??  

Even though I'm a huge fan of the Jaime - Brienne relationship I don't really believe in star-crossed love, or one true love or anything like that.  I think they are a great match for each other and they each helped each other grow as people.  But I equally think they are COMPLETELY DOOMED and I think that both of them know that, which is part of why it's so great...  

Yeah, great stuff, thanks, I read it all with interest.

Bottom line: If I wasn't 100% convinced Jaime is going to die, I would view the whole thing differently.

But that's not the case.

[Le Cygne]

Well, you don't know that Brienne will survive, either. So how about a contingency romance for Jaime, too.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

9 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Well, you don't know that Brienne will survive, either. So how about a contingency romance for Jaime, too.

I've always been a fan of Jaime X Dany

 

[A spoon of knife and fork]

3 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

@A spoon of knife and fork I am not being hostile to the concept. I surely wouldn't use that word to describe that, it's only that some people just disagree with that bc we have only been shown 3 scenes between them. It's ok to agree and disagree about things in a debate thread.

We are just making an exchange of ideas and I accept Cron's view, but I'd like to know his opinions on how this could happen in the show to discuss them in a deeper way. I think it's interesting to know how that could happen, eventhough I'd prefer not to happen, personally.

That was a personal challenge to our contributor, because he was the first to bring up that idea, and I suggested Cron an hypothesis of when Jaime could die, but he can bring up another.

You can suggest another if you want to discuss that point. The challenge was to know when and how this could happen, as I stated before.

This is sort of getting into the realm of fanfic which IMO is really not going to get anywhere.  It's an excersize in futility.  Basically someone will propose a set of circumstances that could work, you'll say "eh that's not likely" they'll present another you'll say "eh that's not likely".  And that's how it's gone so far.

Bottom line is I really don't think it's going to be a productive conversation.  So why even bother to ask the question?

Quote

Yes, they could have a friendship, but I don't think she will go North.

But if she goes North, then, how will the BatB story with Jaime arrive to the maturity?

Brienne and Tormund can en friends without it "interfering" in her romantic relationship with Jaime.  She is already friends with Podrick and that certainly won't be getting in the way.  Unless you think women and men can't "really" just be friends?

Quote

If it's after, my point is that she would still be thinking of Jaime, even more...

I suppose if Jaime dies early enough theres plenty of time.  There are a lot of people who thought Jaime would die at the end of S6 and would never encounter Brienne again.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

The LOTR example, there was indeed a a story basis for the romance, both characters were developed in ways that led them to each other, as a perfect match. Eowyn comes to a realization about her true nature, which is perfectly in line with Faramir. And while brief, the story was beautifully written.

While I liked thoh in that it was nice to see two characters I liked being happy, I felt like Eowyns sudden realization upon meeting Faramir that she doesn't care about fighting or leading or honor to be some pretty retrograde BS to be honest.  Certainly don't agree that this being her "true nature" was built up as a likely event through the previous books.  

2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

There is nothing to indicate anything of the sort with Brienne and Tormund. Where is the character development that leads them to the same point of view?

One could argue Tormund has over time become much more Westerosi than he was - just as Jon took on some Wildling traits, Tormund has come to respect some "kneelers" and accept some of their ways.  

Part of what Jaime and Briennes development has included is Brienne coming to see the world as much less black and white.  Could keep going that direction even after he's gone, I suppose.

2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

They were randomly thrown together when LSH was cut.

One could argue that Sansa and Briene also were "randomly thrown together" in Season 6 but I think that is very likely to happen in the book, eventually.  

2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

As for discussing ASOIAF, this is an adaptation, and the showrunners and producers have repeatedly indicated many story points will indeed be the same (see my signature for a couple of examples, but there are many more), so the books are relevant to discussion.

I have always agreed with this.

2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

So of course it's something to consider that there's nothing for Tormund and Brienne in the books. They will most likely never even meet in the books. And it is relevant that Brienne is still young, and has time to figure out what she wants in terms of romance.

If Brienne and Sansa end up in the North eventually the same stuff could happen. This may just be D and D compressing time. 

[Meera of Tarth]

5 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

This is sort of getting into the realm of fanfic which IMO is really not going to get anywhere.  It's an excersize in futility.  Basically someone will propose a set of circumstances that could work, you'll say "eh that's not likely" they'll present another you'll say "eh that's not likely".  And that's how it's gone so far.

Bottom line is I really don't think it's going to be a productive conversation.  So why even bother to ask the question?

Brienne and Tormund can en friends without it "interfering" in her romantic relationship with Jaime.  She is already friends with Podrick and that certainly won't be getting in the way.  Unless you think women and men can't "really" just be friends?

I suppose if Jaime dies early enough theres plenty of time.  There are a lot of people who thought Jaime would die at the end of S6 and would never encounter Brienne again.

fanfic? Why? We are speculating about the show about a premise that Cron mentioned.

if it's fanfic or not show will tell. I think it's not gonna happen but nobody said anything about fanfic. curious it is you already know how I will respond to something that has not been written by posters who started with the notion of T*B but if you don't know how it could work in the show then of course better not debate about that.

women and men can't be friends? I think you missed my point. Of course they can be friends but I would like to know how the scene could be written to hint at something deeper and believable in a future without interfering JB's story. and that is not fanfic. Just speculating about a possible future scene about "the grounded basis" of TB that some people have missed this season, like me.

I agree that if Jaime dies at the beginning there would be more time to start hinting at TB. however I would like to know how you think it would happen anyway since I think they have nothing in common and considering she would be devastated for Jaime (especially if something happens between them next season).

[Cron]

5 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Actors are playing younger versions of themselves, so she is in her middle thirties, at most.

How much time does she have left? Really?

First of all, as @HanginginWesteros suggest, I believe that IF Jaime dies and SHE and TORMUND don't, there is a great chance to have a baby from that man, so she wouldn't be soooo lonely (let's no forget that she still has a father who accepts her as who she is and is a heir of an island).

Secondly, she will have no hurry to find anybody else, and besides, she is still young. And, If she doesn't bear a child, her life won't end for that.

Thirdly, she has a whole life to find someone she wants. If she has denied tons of marriage prospects it's because a reason. It's because she wants someone she loves and someone who loves her back. And Tormund doesn't love her, he is just attracted to her. @Cron what makes you think that Tormund is "in love" with her? Of course we don't know but those three scenes suggest you that=? Really, love at first sight? To me it's just sexual attraction.

To hint at that, they should HURRY UP a lot. They should have a conversation, laugh, and she see her with other eyes, probably an smile. And even with that, it would be just a hint, no confirmed unless The showrunners decide to make an epilogue in the last episode of the show.

Moreover, she could find someone later and this person doesn't necessarily be Tormund. Why?

@Cron tell me something they have in common right now. SOmething deeper, based on what we know from both characters, not just attracttion looks from ONE SIDE while she clearly rejects his looks at this moment.

And finally, that's another thing to take into account. If she marries Tormund now, she would be mor elonely that alone! And even more miserable.

@Cron I believe you like JB, but I challenge you to tell me what these two have in common than in some years after the supposed death of Jaime would fit Brienne's character, and how would the show made it clear, and also when. We can make the hypothesis that S6 has 6-8 episodes and Jaime dies 2 episodes before the ending.

@Le Cygne I agree with you! If they focus too much on that "Brienne+Tormund" then JB- that has still a lot to play- would be diminissed. 

@Cron Maybe you should take take that into consideration too, while thinking how Tormund+Brienne could work in an scene (when and how being believable) while Brienne still has big feelings for Jaimebefore/during and after he dies.

Oh, I like your sharp tongue!

(1)  When I asked how much time Brienne has left, I meant "child bearing years."

(2) I agree that Brienne's loneliness would be less if she had a child, but still, a child is not the same as a "signifcant other" (I'm not saying the significant other is BETTER than the child, I'm just saying they have aspects that are different).  Brienne may be very happy and "non-lonely" when the child is young and growing up, but what about when the child is grown up and gone, living his or her own life?

(3) If Brienne is happy, then I'm happy for her, and that's cool.  But I'm not sure she's still "young," at least for child bearing purposes.  It seems very clear to me that Brienne has been aged up quite a bit for the show (in fact, her age seems to have nearly doubled).

(4) Don't think I said Tormund is "in love" with Brienne, but nevertheless, believe me, men and women tend to define love differently anyway (therefore, you might be surprised by what can legitimately constitute love to a man), PLUS, I've seen stats showing that men tend to fall in love more quickly than women, AND tend to stay in love longer, anyway.   

Also, I question what you mean by "just sexual attraction."   Is sex all there is to a relationship?  Clearly, NO.  However, believe me, it's very important especially to a man, as I've also seen stats showing that sex is FAR more important to a man than a woman (big news flash, I know), and can be integral to how they define "love."  Look at Tyrion and Shae's relationship.  Initially, Shae was nothing more than a sex object to Tyrion, but soon they BOTH came to deeply love each other.  Why can't Tormund and Brienne's story be the same? B/c Tyrion, we believe, is SO much smarter than Tormund? B/c Tyrion is more sophisticated?  Has more money?  Wears nicer clothes?  Just wondering...

(5)  You say "To hint at that, they should HURRY UP a lot. They should have a conversation, laugh, and she see her with other eyes, probably an smile. And even with that, it would be just a hint, no confirmed unless The showrunners decide to make an epilogue in the last episode of the show."  I say:  I'm cool with all of that, sounds good to me.

(6)  I agree, she could find someone later, and it does not necessarily have to be Tormund.  But Tormund seems to be the guy we're being given, and I really don't think he's all that bad a guy, at least not compared to MANY other characters in GOT, including Jaime Lannister, at times (Yeah, i went there, i said it).  I'm a HUGE fan of the Jaime character (as a fictional character), but why is he so great and Tormund's not?  Cuz Jaime is SO handsome, rich, and dresses so nicely???  I believe Jaime is truly reformed, but that doesn't mean he didn't do terrible things before, and there's no reason Tormund can't be just as good a man. In fact, I don't think Tormund would throw a kid out a window, but Jaime DID IT.

(7)  You say:  "tell me something they have in common right now. SOmething deeper, based on what we know from both characters, not just attracttion looks from ONE SIDE while she clearly rejects his looks at this moment."  I say:  Tormund and Brienne are both great fighters, are both basically good, and both basically honorable and trustworthy, I think.  Jon Snow certainly seems to have no problem with Tormund, in fact they seem to get along great and are very close.  

As far as the "looks" are concerned, well, I certainly know that Tormund is never going to be "Prince Charming come to life" (my words) like Jaime Lannister, but (a) looks aren't everything, in fact that's a huge part of the point of the "Beauty and the Beast" story arcs anyway, and (b) if Tormund takes a bath, cuts his hair and shaves, he might not be so bad.  Most women aren't as picky about looks as men anyway, that's a simple fact.

(8)  You say:  "And finally, that's another thing to take into account. If she marries Tormund now, she would be mor elonely that alone! And even more miserable."  I say:  Well, I've never suggested Brienne will or should marry Tormund (or even have a relationship with him) if she doesn't want to.  If it turns out she doesn't like the guy, that's cool, I'm fine with that, but I think she secretly DOES have some attraction to him, at least in the show (obviously, they've not met in the books)

(9)  You challenge me to tell you what they have in common, but I already addressed that.  I cannot perfectly predict exactly how this will play out.  Don't get me wrong, though, I'm not heavily emotionally invested in a Tormund/Brienne relationship.  If they don't end up together, that's fine with me, maybe it was all red herring stuff.  As long as Brienne is happy in the end, I'm fine with that, and I strongly believe she will be (unlike Jaime)

(10)  Regarding your last paragraph:   People (both men and women) can be attacted to more than one person at the same time, and in fact it's not uncommon at all.  Would you agree, or disagree?   

[A spoon of knife and fork]

3 hours ago, Cridefea said:

I think we're discussing here just because we have different views about the real reason of Tormund/Brienne scenes. For me they added them to the show only because we can see that Brienne can be an attractive woman for someone. It could be preparatory for some "romance", probably with Jaime. In books, we have read something about Brienne's sexual appeal, in the show it's difficult to point out.

This is actually my POV as well.  I think that Tormund and Brienne exists mainly as comic relief plus a way for Brienne to realize she is sexually desirable to some men (something she previously believed was not possible).

3 hours ago, Cridefea said:

Moreover I'm still not convinced Brienne will manage to return to Sansa and Jon.

I'm totally unsure what will happen, which is GREAT!  I love being surprised

3 hours ago, Cridefea said:

In long term I think she will marry someone, I agree with you.

I just dislike all this talk of "oh Jaimes the only one for her etc".  Because if GRRM is really trying to write realistic fiction (and he is) then the romantic relationships should be somewhat realistic too.  Perfect matches don't exist IRL.  

[Le Cygne]

@Meera of Tarth

Back to your OP about what's next for Jaime and Brienne, since Jaime is the love of Brienne's life, which is the way GRRM wrote it...

I think KL is too crowded with stuff going on for Jaime to stick around for long.

A bunch of people will conflict with Cersei - Dany, Tyrion, Olenna, Ellaria... and there's a rumor about Cersei joining up with

Spoiler

Euron

I just don't see much room there for Jaime. Maybe he finally got the push he needed to be where book Jaime was long ago. So where does he go next. In the books, Cersei gets sick of him challenging her, and sends him off to the Riverlands. Maybe she sends him off again, and he runs into Brienne that way.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

9 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

fanfic? Why? We are speculating about the show about a premise that Cron mentioned.

if it's fanfic or not show will tell. I think it's not gonna happen but nobody said anything about fanfic.

You asked him to say how it would be written believably.  I took that to mean you wanted him to literally write a script of scene or scenes setting up Tormund and Brienne to see if you'd agree that it met your standards.  

9 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

curious it is you already know how I will respond to something that has not been written by posters who started with the notion of T*B but if you don't know how it could work in the show then of course better not debate about that.

 

9 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

women and men can't be friends? I think you missed my point. Of course they can be friends but I would like to know how the scene could be written to hint at something deeper and believable in a future without interfering JB's story. and that is not fanfic. Just speculating about a possible future scene about "the grounded basis" of TB that some people have missed this season, like me.

You want to know how it is possible for a scene to be written where Tormund and Brienne become friends without it interfering with Jaime and Brienne.  I still don't understand what one has to do with the other.  They are orthogonal

9 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I agree that if Jaime dies at the beginning there would be more time to start hinting at TB. however I would like to know how you think it would happen anyway since I think they have nothing in common and considering she would be devastated for Jaime (especially if something happens between them next season).

you are back to saying they have nothing in common even after several times people have discussed things they have in common.  again it does seem to be a futile effort.  So again, I don't see what response could be give to your challenge that wouldn't be turned around.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

3 hours ago, Cridefea said:

I think we're discussing here just because we have different views about the real reason of Tormund/Brienne scenes. For me they added them to the show only because we can see that Brienne can be an attractive woman for someone. It could be preparatory for some "romance", probably with Jaime. In books, we have read something about Brienne's sexual appeal, in the show it's difficult to point out.

This is actually my POV as well.  I think that Tormund and Brienne exists mainly as comic relief plus a way for Brienne to realize she is sexually desirable to some men (something she previously believed was not possible).

Quote

Moreover I'm still not convinced Brienne will manage to return to Sansa and Jon.

I'm totally unsure what will happen, which is GREAT!  I love being surprised

Quote

In long term I think she will marry someone, I agree with you.

I just dislike all this talk of "oh Jaimes the only one for her etc".  Because if GRRM is really trying to write realistic fiction (and he is) then the romantic relationships should be somewhat realistic too.  Perfect matches don't exist IRL. 

[Meera of Tarth]

1 hour ago, Cron said:

Oh, I like your sharp tongue!

(1)  When I asked how much time Brienne has left, I meant "child bearing years."

(2) I agree that Brienne's loneliness would be less if she had a child, but still, a child is not the same as a "signifcant other" (I'm not saying the significant other is BETTER than the child, I'm just saying they have aspects that are different).  Brienne may be very happy and "non-lonely" when the child is young and growing up, but what about when the child is grown up and gone, living his or her own life?

(3) If Brienne is happy, then I'm happy for her, and that's cool.  But I'm not sure she's still "young," at least for child bearing purposes.  It seems very clear to me that Brienne has been aged up quite a bit for the show (in fact, her age seems to have nearly doubled).

(4) Don't think I said Tormund is "in love" with Brienne, but nevertheless, believe me, men and women tend to define love differently anyway (therefore, you might be surprised by what can legitimately constitute love to a man), PLUS, I've seen stats showing that men tend to fall in love more quickly than women, AND tend to stay in love longer, anyway.   

 

(5)  You say "To hint at that, they should HURRY UP a lot. They should have a conversation, laugh, and she see her with other eyes, probably an smile. And even with that, it would be just a hint, no confirmed unless The showrunners decide to make an epilogue in the last episode of the show."  I say:  I'm cool with all of that, sounds good to me.

Thanks for adressing the topic with more detail. Now I think we can understand more what's going on.

About bearing a child, I know he/she wouldn't be the same than a lover, but she will definitely wouldn't be lonely, she might love that child more than Jaime. When the child is grown...well that's so many years! 20 years time? who knows? I think that in so much time anything can have happened: she could have married someone, be a widow like other women from their peirod of time....

I know she MIGHT be not that young in the show (although I think she is young) but she could still find love being older, no matter if she bears a child or not, it's never too late for love. I was talking about being young for finding love-not  bearing a child in her period of time. I think there has been a misunderstanding from both parts.

I agree with 5) if there is an epilogue and the hints are there in the next seasons, although considering the books, I find it extremely unlikely because the ending should be the same than in the books.

Quote

(6)  I agree, she could find someone later, and it does not necessarily have to be Tormund.  But Tormund seems to be the guy we're being given, and I really don't think he's all that bad a guy, at least not compared to MANY other characters in GOT, including Jaime Lannister, at times (Yeah, i went there, i said it).  I'm a HUGE fan of the Jaime character (as a fictional character), but why is he so great and Tormund's not?  Cuz Jaime is SO handsome, rich, and dresses so nicely???  I believe Jaime is truly reformed, but that doesn't mean he didn't do terrible things before, and there's no reason Tormund can't be just as good a man. In fact, I don't think Tormund would throw a kid out a window, but Jaime DID IT.

(7)  You say:  "tell me something they have in common right now. SOmething deeper, based on what we know from both characters, not just attracttion looks from ONE SIDE while she clearly rejects his looks at this moment."  I say:  Tormund and Brienne are both great fighters, are both basically good, and both basically honorable and trustworthy, I think.  Jon Snow certainly seems to have no problem with Tormund, in fact they seem to get along great and are very close.  

As far as the "looks" are concerned, well, I certainly know that Tormund is never going to be "Prince Charming come to life" (my words) like Jaime Lannister, but (a) looks aren't everything, in fact that's a huge part of the point of the "Beauty and the Beast" story arcs anyway, and (b) if Tormund takes a bath, cuts his hair and shaves, he might not be so bad.  Most women aren't as picky about looks as men anyway, that's a simple fact.

(8)  You say:  "And finally, that's another thing to take into account. If she marries Tormund now, she would be mor elonely that alone! And even more miserable."  I say:  Well, I've never suggested Brienne will or should marry Tormund (or even have a relationship with him) if she doesn't want to.  If it turns out she doesn't like the guy, that's cool, I'm fine with that, but I think she secretly DOES have some attraction to him, at least in the show (obviously, they've not met in the books)

(9)  You challenge me to tell you what they have in common, but I already addressed that.  I cannot perfectly predict exactly how this will play out.  Don't get me wrong, though, I'm not heavily emotionally invested in a Tormund/Brienne relationship.  If they don't end up together, that's fine with me, maybe it was all red herring stuff.  As long as Brienne is happy in the end, I'm fine with that, and I strongly believe she will be (unlike Jaime)

 

We agree on 6) she could find someone else. I don't 100% discard Tormund in an epilogue (although, as I said, the scenes from the show to me are reminders of Hyle Hunt--> not happening)

About Tormund and Jaime's comparison.....Well, Jaime being handsome or not it's not what matters. It surely matters to her, but she has fallen in love with a handsome man who was like a Beast but changed. My problem with Tormund is that doesn't fit the story of Brienne (at least not in a short period of time, close to JB's relationship) because he is a wilding, something Brienne's tastes and story is against, she is into knights.

Yes, combat is a good thing they have in common, I can buy it. But my point is that the connection between them has not happened in the show (on the contrary, she has rejected him). And, eventhough, it's a different style of fighting, she likes knights, not wildings.

We agree on the bolded part of 8) 

About your questions...

Quote

Also, I question what you mean by "just sexual attraction."   Is sex all there is to a relationship?  Clearly, NO.  However, believe me, it's very important especially to a man, as I've also seen stats showing that sex is FAR more important to a man than a woman (big news flash, I know), and can be integral to how they define "love."  Look at Tyrion and Shae's relationship.  Initially, Shae was nothing more than a sex object to Tyrion, but soon they BOTH came to deeply love each other.  Why can't Tormund and Brienne's story be the same? B/c Tyrion, we believe, is SO much smarter than Tormund? B/c Tyrion is more sophisticated?  Has more money?  Wears nicer clothes?  Just wondering...

To me Trmund didn't fall in love with Brienne at first sight. Well, I don't even think it's possible in real life. He just likes her, and judging by his looks, lustful looks, he is sexually attracted to her. Brienne is a sexual being, and is attracted to Jaime in a romantic and sexual way, but her characterisation is about a woman that puts love first to sexuality. She is an idealist.

Quote

(10)  Regarding your last paragraph:   People (both men and women) can be attacted to more than one person at the same time, and in fact it's not uncommon at all.  Would you agree, or disagree?   

No, I meant that a person might fall in love with several candidates. That there is more than one possible love to choose. But love is what makes you choose.... 

But that this story is about an epic romance. SO, in that sense, Jaime is the one, or at least, he will always be the love of her life, no matter if she falls in love again.

Someone can be in love (romantically) with more than one person at the same time? that person surely loves one more than the others, but feelings are complicated things. That's the basis of triangle stories. .

[Meera of Tarth]

50 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

@Meera of Tarth

Back to your OP about what's next for Jaime and Brienne, since Jaime is the love of Brienne's life, which is the way GRRM wrote it...

I think KL is too crowded with stuff going on for Jaime to stick around for long.

A bunch of people will conflict with Cersei - Dany, Tyrion, Olenna, Ellaria... and there's a rumor about Cersei joining up with

  Reveal hidden contents

Euron

I just don't see much room there for Jaime. Maybe he finally got the push he needed to be where book Jaime was long ago. So where does he go next. In the books, Cersei gets sick of him challenging her, and sends him off to the Riverlands. Maybe she sends him off again, and he runs into Brienne that way.

Thanks for the reminder!!

About the spoilers for next season:

Spoiler

If she allies with Euron Jaime won't stand it. He might meet with Brienne sooner than expected.