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Meera of Tarth

[Book Spoilers] Jaime & Brienne- What's going on?

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

well, well....I think S8 will be more directed towards the the ww's thread. Not only that, but even if Brienne's stor will also be in the Stark side (as Gwen said,and also Sansa) there is more to that. First of all, Jaime is wearing a Northener armour, so he is technically in Bri's team. Secondly, Gwen also said that there is more about Brienne in season 8. She is not destined to be Sansa's guard, we will see her story...and it's with Jaime,

She could refuse to execute him and die with him, breaking her oath to Sansa.

But as always I'm probably wrong on every count, it's just how I imagine things will go based on how I see the characters currently stand:)

Edited by NonoNono

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Jamie and Bienne are about the complexity of honour I think.

I think Jaime may not survive the series but Brienne will. She will end up in a position to complete his entry in the White Book of the Kingsguard, even if the monarchy itself is no longer really intact. She will write about all the things he did, including both saving the people of King’s Landing from the mad king and throwing Bran out the window. Also finally how he defied his sister and came North to fight for the living.

If the Starks and Dany can’t get over their grievances with Jamie it is possible Brienne might be in a position where she needs to execute Jaime for past crimes on behalf of Sansa. I hope not though.

If Jaime does manage to survive, it means Tyrion will not IMO, and his role will likely be as the Golden Hand, in other words the hand who figures out how to refinance and restore Westeros.

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1 hour ago, Hippocras said:

Jamie and Bienne are about the complexity of honour I think.

I think Jaime may not survive the series but Brienne will. She will end up in a position to complete his entry in the White Book of the Kingsguard, even if the monarchy itself is no longer really intact. She will write about all the things he did, including both saving the people of King’s Landing from the mad king and throwing Bran out the window. Also finally how he defied his sister and came North to fight for the living.

If the Starks and Dany can’t get over their grievances with Jamie it is possible Brienne might be in a position where she needs to execute Jaime for past crimes on behalf of Sansa. I hope not though.

If Jaime does manage to survive, it means Tyrion will not IMO, and his role will likely be as the Golden Hand, in other words the hand who figures out how to refinance and restore Westeros.

I think Brienne actually won’t write the truth in the book. She will write the lie they are asking her to partake in to support his execution.

Sam is the one to write what truly happened, the true history.

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13 minutes ago, NonoNono said:

I think Brienne actually won’t write the truth in the book. She will write the lie they are asking her to partake in to support his execution.

Sam is the one to write what truly happened, the true history.

I doubt that. Nothing would be more out of character.

Jaime broke oaths, but pretty much always when they were in conflict with other oaths and obligations. Brienne will likely encounter similar situations where she needs to choose between oaths. But there is zero reason why she would write a false entry in the White Book.

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2 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

I doubt that. Nothing would be more out of character.

Jaime broke oaths, but pretty much always when they were in conflict with other oaths and obligations. Brienne will likely encounter similar situations where she needs to choose between oaths. But there is zero reason why she would write a false entry in the White Book.

Because she has to? If she executes Jaime because she must support a lie otherwise Sansa can’t rule, she could have to fill in the pages for the same reason. Or she leaves them blank and no one fills them, but I doubt it. I can imagine she writes the lie down, because she must, a few tears falling in the ink.

Sansa is becoming Little Finger’s figurative heir. Sometimes you have to lie a little.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, NonoNono said:

Because she has to? If she executes Jaime because she must support a lie otherwise Sansa can’t rule, she could have to fill in the pages for the same reason. Or she leaves them blank and no one fills them, but I doubt it. I can imagine she writes the lie down, because she must, a few tears falling in the ink.

Sansa is becoming Little Finger’s figurative heir. Sometimes you have to lie a little.

She never made an oath to help Sansa claim the Iron throne. Her oath is protection. If Sansa trying to win the throne brought her in conflict with her values, her values would win - she is not so different from Ned in this respect. Just as Ned could refuse Robert’s request to send assassins after Dany, Brienne would refuse to lie and would rather die.

As for the White Book, there is no reason why anyone would MAKE her write anything. It exists within the Kingsguard quarters and is basically only read by other Kingsguard. It is their internal record. It bothers Jamie that his entry is so bare because his father brought him up to care about legacy but the reason for anyone completing the entry is entirely personal.

Jamie had a weirwood dream. The meaning was clear. Jaime lost his sword arm and from that point on entrusted Brienne with his honour and his legacy. She won’t fail him.

Edited by Hippocras

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8 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

She never made an oath to help Sansa claim the Iron throne. Her oath is protection. If Sansa trying to win the throne brought her in conflict with her values, her values would win - she is not so different from Ned in this respect. Just as Ned could refuse Robert’s request to send assassins after Dany, Brienne would refuse to lie and would rather die.

As for the White Book, there is no reason why anyone would MAKE her write anything. It exists within the Kingsguard quarters and is basically only read by other Kingsguard. It is their internal record. It bothers Jamie that his entry is so bare because his father brought him up to care about legacy but the reason for anyone completing the entry is entirely personal.

Jamie had a weirwood dream. The meaning was clear. Jaime lost his sword arm and from that point on entrusted Brienne with his honour and his legacy. She won’t fail him.

 

My understanding of that dream was that Jaime is in Winterfell and had to defend his reputation against accusations from the Starks and Targaryen(s), which coincidentally seems like it will happen in S8, and Brienne defends his reputation. I forget how the later parts of the dream go.

You’re right she could write the truth in the book, but not if she has to support a lie. A king’s guard is not alone, and since I think Aegon takes the throne (or someone claiming his identity) who would be the other appointees? Probably not friends of Sansa or Brienne but supporters and trusted men of the king. She can’t write down « He killed the king’s grandfather but he had a good reason! », especially not if it’s exactly why he is sentenced to death.

But hey, Brienne executing Jaime with Oathkeeper to support a lie needed to protect Sansa is just a guess, I could be all wrong.

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1 minute ago, NonoNono said:

 

My understanding of that dream was that Jaime is in Winterfell and had to defend his reputation against accusations from the Starks and Targaryen(s), which coincidentally seems like it will happen in S8, and Brienne defends his reputation. I forget how the later parts of the dream go.

You’re right she could write the truth in the book, but not if she has to support a lie. A king’s guard is not alone, and since I think Aegon takes the throne (or someone claiming his identity) who would be the other appointees? Probably not friends of Sansa or Brienne but supporters and trusted men of the king. She can’t write down « He killed the king’s grandfather but he had a good reason! », especially not if it’s exactly why he is sentenced to death.

But hey, Brienne executing Jaime with Oathkeeper to support a lie needed to protect Sansa is just a guess, I could be all wrong.

The oath Brienne swore to Sansa is a contract that goes 2 ways. Sansa’s job in the contract is not to ask Brienne to do anything that might bring her dishonour. 

Jaime’s dream was at Casterly Rock, not Winterfell. He was being forced down into the Lannister crypts by his sister and his father, so this to me makes it seem like he is resisting, with Brienne’s help, getting lumped in with the rotten legacy of his father and sister. 

You are very right I think that he will have to confront his past with both the Starks and Targaryens when and if he arrives in the North, and this will be very very tense. He might not prevail. Brienne will speak in his defence, but there is a lot to contend with and Jaime might have a hard time proving he has something to offer in return for being spared.

But if Jaime does get executed for his crimes, Brienne would still make sure an intact and complete record of his deeds gets handed down to posterity.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

The oath Brienne swore to Sansa is a contract that goes 2 ways. Sansa’s job in the contract is not to ask Brienne to do anything that might bring her dishonour. 

Jaime’s dream was at Casterly Rock, not Winterfell. He was being forced down into the Lannister crypts by his sister and his father, so this to me makes it seem like he is resisting, with Brienne’s help, getting lumped in with the rotten legacy of his father and sister. 

You are very right I think that he will have to confront his past with both the Starks and Targaryens when and if he arrives in the North, and this will be very very tense. He might not prevail. Brienne will speak in his defence, but there is a lot to contend with and Jaime might have a hard time proving he has something to offer in return for being spared.

But if Jaime does get executed for his crimes, Brienne would still make sure an intact and complete record of his deeds gets handed down to posterity.

I think Sam is the one who will write the truth. Another truth in a book lost in a pile of truths and lies and misunderstandings. I think any official-type of record will support a big lie. Joffrey read the book, Brienne can’t write the truth if the king is « Aegon ». She could write nothing, but if she is told to since she knew him well, she would be in a difficult position. At least writing he killed Aerys wouldn’t be a lie. She can write some truths, but leave others out.

Edited by NonoNono

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2 minutes ago, NonoNono said:

I think Sam is the one who will write the truth. Another truth in a book lost in a pile of truths and lies and misunderstandings. I think any official-type of record will support a big lie. Joffrey read the book, Brienne can’t write the truth if the king is « Aegon ». She could write nothing, but if she is told to since she knew him well, she would be in a difficult position. At least writing he killed Aerys wouldn’t be a lie. She can write some truths, but leave others out.

You seem oretty glum about the future! All for nothing in your view then?

 

Just because Sam will write the Song of Ice and Fire book doesn’t mean all historical records will be his. The only person who can fill in the White Book is a Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, which is never gonna be Sam.

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I know it won’t be Sam, just saying if anyone writes the truth about Jaime it will be in his book, not the White Book.

And yes, pretty gloomy. Not sure if you read what I think happens to Jon, similar fate to Jaime (bad rep, ordered to be executed, people playing along because they must, but there’s some hope).

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On 4/4/2019 at 1:43 PM, NonoNono said:

I know it won’t be Sam, just saying if anyone writes the truth about Jaime it will be in his book, not the White Book.

And yes, pretty gloomy. Not sure if you read what I think happens to Jon, similar fate to Jaime (bad rep, ordered to be executed, people playing along because they must, but there’s some hope).

What if Arya kills Jaime, steals his face and then kills Cersei.....

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36 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

What if Arya kills Jaime, steals his face and then kills Cersei.....

I don’t think Arya kills Cersei, she had nothing to do with the red wedding and didn’t want Ned dead. Arya doesn’t deserve that kill.

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3 hours ago, NonoNono said:

I don’t think Arya kills Cersei, she had nothing to do with the red wedding and didn’t want Ned dead. Arya doesn’t deserve that kill.

You are basically assuming nothing more is going to happen in season 8 affecting the dynamic between Arya and Cersei. But Cersei is capable of some extreme horror and Arya may well be the only one who can put an end to it. All depends on events yet to come.

I think it is perfectly possible Arya would use a face Cersei would not suspect to access her.

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14 hours ago, NonoNono said:

I don’t think Arya kills Cersei, she had nothing to do with the red wedding and didn’t want Ned dead. Arya doesn’t deserve that kill.

But Cersei is on Arya's list remember.  She was heading to kill Cersei when Hot Pie told her that Jon was in Winterfell.

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4 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

But Cersei is on Arya's list remember.  She was heading to kill Cersei when Hot Pie told her that Jon was in Winterfell.

Yes, and she didn’t go to kill her. I think she will give up on that. Her list is going in the trash.

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2 hours ago, NonoNono said:

 

Yes, and she didn’t go to kill her. I think she will give up on that. Her list is going in the trash.

I don't think it is so black and white (har har).

Her list is like a prayer. She doesn't need to throw it in the trash even if she doesn't actively pursue it. The second half of the season will be the remaining characters after Winterfell dealing with the problem that is Cersei. Arya may well participate in an effort to remove Cersei, but she would be doing it in defence of her family and the people, not as a lone wolf. It is the lone wolf part that she ditched.

I doubt personally that she will be the one to actually strangle Cersei mostly because it is far more satisfying from a story perspective for one of Cersei's brothers to do it and not just as a face on Arya. Still, Arya will likely have a role in getting whoever does the deed in place, just as she will have a role in enabling the final battle of the Cleganes to eliminate the Mountain (also on her list).

 

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8 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Last episode had some greta moments between them. Now they will fight together

Every scene was  sooooo great, so many looks and Brienne vouching for him and the "I'd be honored to serve under your command, if you'll have me", but OMG Jaime knighting her it was so.......!I was so happy!!! It was perfect, I cried a lot, very touching. And we also saw her first smile.

A beautiful episode, I was so happy!!!!!

What I also love is that we thought Jaime would have pledged himself to Bran or Sansa or Jon, but he pledged to Brienne instead.

As for tomorrow, if  I remember well, Nik said something about the swords for next epi... something like he couldn't talk about that. Now I can't find the interview...

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54 minutes ago, Cridefea said:

Every scene was  sooooo great, so many looks and Brienne vouching for him and the "I'd be honored to serve under your command, if you'll have me", but OMG Jaime knighting her it was so.......!I was so happy!!! It was perfect, I cried a lot, very touching. And we also saw her first smile.

A beautiful episode, I was so happy!!!!!

 

Was her first????

OMG and his faces, he is such a great actor!!

Quote

What I also love is that we thought Jaime would have pledged himself to Bran or Sansa or Jon, but he pledged to Brienne instead.

As for tomorrow, if  I remember well, Nik said something about the swords for next epi... something like he couldn't talk about that. Now I can't find the interview...

OMG OMG swords????????

 

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