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Meera of Tarth

[Book Spoilers] Jaime & Brienne- What's going on?

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I like how you have expressed it:

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he's telling himself it's Cersei, but on a deeper level, he's feeling it's Brienne, like he does in the books.

that is what I was trying to say, but didn't know how.

ShowJaime is less aware of his feelings than BookJaime...when he breaks with Cersei he will began to know exactly who he really loves.

When he is with Brienne, he seems to know it, but then dismisses it, while uncounsiously the feelings remain there.

See how similar are these two scenes from the show in terms of Jaime's facial expression:

 

https://youtu.be/rlJWgOizJMo?t=78

Here he knows he cares quite  alot about Brienne, and is probably aware that she cares quite a lot about him. But he dismisses it, trying to think of another thing. But then there is the goodbye scene, when he knows it's more than caring.....but after that, he "forgets" all about that. Or better said: he hides it inside him.

Here he says "It's yours. It will always be yours", with a similar expression. NCS said it was like saying "My love will always be yours"

and of course Jaime's reaction when he knows he might have to fight her: he doesn't want that in a million years!

Notice that the music is the same in  both scenes.

 

Regarding Brienne, I think her feelings/Process are more similar to the one of the books. It is more clear she falls for him from the beginning. In the show we don't know her thoughts, but the silence when Cersei asks her who she loves  in S4 and he Riverrun glaze are determinant.

 

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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8 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I hope he was exaggerating, as his following actions suggest. Nevertheless, although I agree that he has changed since the Pilot, when he was with Cersei this season before the wildfire he seemed to already be in love with her-not a healthy relationship I'd say, because she was in control and made him do what she wanted. He offered her to stay for the trial, while Cersei said to him it wasn't necessary because she had The Mountain. He seemed distraught about that. Maybe it was intentional, to show us that they didn't have the same relationship as before.

In this clip Jaime says that he has only been with Cersei so that's a hint that he could be Myrcella's father, but nothing more. Brienne can elaborate from that. I don't remember if they have ever talked about this, I don't think so. 

I'm more oblivious about if Brienne knows that Myrcella is dead.

They are very close, so in a future when they meet again, maybe they will talk about everything, about Cersei's actions, his fatherhood, knighthood....but at this point of the story I think the focus was on their relationship, meeting for a brief period of time after a season and a half, so I don't think they could have talked about that. Moreover, they were on a mission. They had to talk about the present siege. As NCS said in an interview: They didn't have time for private Jaime and Brienne", paraphrasing.

Interesting food for thought.

As i think about it more and more, I'm assuming Brienne knows jaime is Myrcella's father.  By the time Brienne meets Cat, Stannis has already sent letters informing people, and I think it's very reasonable to assume Cat and Brienne discussed it, as Cat clearly knew.

i suppose Brienne knowing is not confirmed, but I would be very surprised if she didn't.

I get the part about them having more pressing business to discuss when Jaime and Brienne spoke at Riverrun, but still, I think it would have been nice if she had said a quick "Sorry to hear about Myrcella," and actually that would have been appropriate whether Myrcella was jaime's daughter or niece.  It would've only taken a moment.

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8 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

It could definitely end tragically and one of them (or both) possibly dying as heroes. However, Brienne will never end up with Tormund, that's for sure. I'm pretty confident that they added those two scenes for a couple of reasons: as a show version of Ser Hyle Hunt and as momentary comedy relief.

There's also another thing to take into consideration: it was only Tormund who found Brienne attractive. She didn't like him. I don't think that they could meet eachother again, and fall in love and develop and story considering there are only 13 episodes left and Jaime and Brienne have been developed both in the show and in the books during several seasons/books.

That's pretty interesting. It would be ironic if Jaime and Bran together but separately defeated the Night's King.

If Bran ever meets Jaime again (now his memory is blocked in the show and in the books he only thinks about him once but doesn't remember him exactly) he will have to decide what to do with him. "This person has changed, and he hurted me and my father but now he has to live to save a lot of people from the NK". It could play the other way around: Bran applying Stark's Justice, that was his first lesson from his father in the first chapter of the books. Bran has a lot of responsibilty.

Or maybe something different. Or could Jaime sacrifice himself for the world as a penance for what he did to Bran and to other people when he was not a good man?

I hear you about there not being much time left for a Tormund and Brienne relationship, but I honestly think it's going to happen, or at least continue to be heavily hinted at up to and at the end of the series run.  I do believe Brienne loves Jaime, but I am utterly convinced he's going to die, basically as you wonder about at the end of your post, which was well said, that he will " sacrifice himself for the world as a penance for what he did to Bran and to other people when he was not a good man."

I've long believed, ever since I first read ASOS quite a few years ago, that Jaime will die a hero in the end, while probably just about everyone would continue to hate him and view him as Edmure did, and Jaime will very, very likely be mourned only by Brienne and Tyrion.

Indeed, Tyrion had better mourn Jaime.  Jaime has been a better brother to Tyrion than Tyrion has been to Jaime, I believe.  Even the lies Jaime told Tyrion about Tysha were done out of Jaime's love for his brother, and were attempts by Jaime to spare Tyrion from the terrible truth of what Tywin did to Tyrion and Tysha.

Jaime, on the other hand, told Bronn in Season 5 that the next time he sees Tyrion he's going to kill him b/c Tyrion killed Tywin, so the reunion should be a real doozy.  HARRR

Wonder if Bronn will save Tyrion from Jaime, that could be a great moment, since Bronn is now really good friends with both Lannister brothers.

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8 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Yeah, but this quote is from the books. I don't remember if Jaime said it in the show. But Jaime slaying the NK would be a great finish for his redemption arc

Yeah, it would be fun if Jaime crossed off the Night King, but I'm guessing that honor will be saved for Jon, Dany, or maybe Tyrion or even Sam.

I wouldn't be against Jaime doing it, though, I agree with you that it would be great finish for Jaime.

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8 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I like how you have expressed it:

that is what I was trying to say, but didn't know how.

ShowJaime is less aware of his feelings than BookJaime...when he breaks with Cersei he will began to know exactly who he really loves.

When he is with Brienne, he seems to know it, but then dismisses it, while uncounsiously the feelings remain there.

See how similar are these two scenes from the show in terms of Jaime's facial expression:

 

https://youtu.be/rlJWgOizJMo?t=78

Here he knows he cares quite  alot about Brienne, and is probably aware that she cares quite a lot about him. But he dismisses it, trying to think of another thing. But then there is the goodbye scene, when he knows it's more than caring.....but after that, he "forgets" all about that. Or better said: he hides it inside him.

Here he says "It's yours. It will always be yours", with a similar expression. NCS said it was like saying "My love will always be yours"

and of course Jaime's reaction when he knows he might have to fight her: he doesn't want that in a million years!

Notice that the music is the same in  both scenes.

Yeah, he's fighting his feelings. But the feelings are there.

8 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Regarding Brienne, I think her feelings/Process are more similar to the one of the books. It is more clear she falls for him from the beginning. In the show we don't know her thoughts, but the silence when Cersei asks her who she loves  in S4 and he Riverrun glaze are determinant.

 

Yeah, she loves like the Beast loves Beauty. But Beauty comes around.

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10 hours ago, Cron said:

 

I've long believed, ever since I first read ASOS quite a few years ago, that Jaime will die a hero in the end, while probably just about everyone would continue to hate him and view him as Edmure did, and Jaime will very, very likely be mourned only by Brienne and Tyrion.

Indeed, Tyrion had better mourn Jaime.  Jaime has been a better brother to Tyrion than Tyrion has been to Jaime, I believe.  Even the lies Jaime told Tyrion about Tysha were done out of Jaime's love for his brother, and were attempts by Jaime to spare Tyrion from the terrible truth of what Tywin did to Tyrion and Tysha.

Jaime, on the other hand, told Bronn in Season 5 that the next time he sees Tyrion he's going to kill him b/c Tyrion killed Tywin, so the reunion should be a real doozy.  HARRR

Wonder if Bronn will save Tyrion from Jaime, that could be a great moment, since Bronn is now really good friends with both Lannister brothers.

The relationship between the brothers is different in the books. ut if they have to come closer again in the show, it could be because of Bronn-

Quote

I hear you about there not being much time left for a Tormund and Brienne relationship, but I honestly think it's going to happen, or at least continue to be heavily hinted at up to and at the end of the series run.  I do believe Brienne loves Jaime, but I am utterly convinced he's going to die, basically as you wonder about at the end of your post, which was well said, that he will " sacrifice himself for the world as a penance for what he did to Bran and to other people when he was not a good man."

But the fact that Jaime dies doesn't mean that Brienne will go to Torumund's shoulder to cry. I even think that if that happens, after ackowledging their romance and likely having some kind of short relationship Brienne will be even more reluctant to be with anyone else.

And in the books there is nothing that says Tormund+Brienne will happen. Like nothing. Why would they do that? It would be completely nonsensical, after 4+ seasons of a Beauty and The Beast story with Jaime.

And she doesn't like him, at all. She is attracted to a different type of men, not the wilding type, and she likes the very handsome ones. She is into knighthood. Tormund isn't. She won't choose him.

At the most, if they meet again , they could make Tormund ask her if she wants something, and she rejecting him because she is in love with another, hinting at Jaime again.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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I think Tormund and Brienne was just to hint that Brienne is desirable. There's nothing there, it's not going to happen. Brienne wants Jaime, she's not just going to suddenly settle for someone else. It was amusing, I loved the way the Tormund actor played it. But it's just a Hyle Hunt thing, someone else wants her... so go get her, Jaime...

"You want her? Go get her." So he did.

Edited by Le Cygne

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5 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

The relationship between the brothers is different in the books. ut if they have to come closer again in the show, it could be because of Bronn-

But the fact that Jaime dies doesn't mean that Brienne will go to Torumund's shoulder to cry. I even think that if that happens, after ackowledging their romance and likely having some kind of short relationship Brienne will be even more reluctant to be with anyone else.

And in the books there is nothing that says Tormund+Brienne will happen. Like nothing. Why would they do that? It would be completely nonsensical, after 4+ seasons of a Beauty and The Beast story with Jaime.

And she doesn't like him, at all. She is attracted to a different type of men, not the wilding type, and she likes the very handsome ones. She is into knighthood. Tormund isn't. She won't choose him.

At the most, if they meet again , they could make Tormund ask her if she wants something, and she rejecting him because she is in love with another, hinting at Jaime again.

Oh, ouch, oh no.

Brienne rejecting Tormund???

I think Tormund is a gentle, sensitive guy, who just puts up a rough exterior facade to protect his own vulnerable feelings, HARRRR.

I predict Brienne is going to coax the real Tormund out, probably give him a shave and a haircut, too, and a lot of ladies are gonna be REALLY surprised by the diamond Brienne finds in the rough.

Granted, it's not foreshadowed in the books, but the show has moved past the books, of course.

In the show, at least, I'm predicting Brienne is gonna end up with Tormund, cuz Jaime is GONNA die, and Tormund will catch her on the rebound so her story can end on a happy note.

Some of the points you make about Brienne and Tormund being different are interesting, but nevertheless, opposites OFTEN attract when it comes to romance, and truth can be even stranger than fiction.

HAR.

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1 hour ago, Cron said:

Oh, ouch, oh no.

Brienne rejecting Tormund???

But look at her face:

Of course she is rejecting him.

She is in love with another man and she doesn't want to be with another. And given her face, the sexual attraction is one-sided.

Quote

I think Tormund is a gentle, sensitive guy, who just puts up a rough exterior facade to protect his own vulnerable feelings, HARRRR.

I predict Brienne is going to coax the real Tormund out, probably give him a shave and a haircut, too, and a lot of ladies are gonna be REALLY surprised by the diamond Brienne finds in the rough.

Granted, it's not foreshadowed in the books, but the show has moved past the books, of course.

In the show, at least, I'm predicting Brienne is gonna end up with Tormund, cuz Jaime is GONNA die, and Tormund will catch her on the rebound so her story can end on a happy note.

I am not analysing Tormund's inside. I agree he could be gentle and sensitive :)

He might find someone else but in this story but it can't be Brienne.

A romance doesn't have to be foreshadowed, but in my opinion it needs the two parts to be interested, if not is unrequited. Apart from that, they have not even shared a sentence, so he, at most, is attracted to her, there is no love, no story.

Do you think that in the next two books Brienne's endgame is marrying Tormund? It would be very bad writing and trolling. I don't think they won't even meet, but if so, there won't be a romantic story between them. If Ser Hyle Hunt is still alive, Brienne won't end with him willingly.

Quote

Some of the points you make about Brienne and Tormund being different are interesting, but nevertheless, opposites OFTEN attract when it comes to romance, and truth can be even stranger than fiction.

HAR.

It's not about opposites attracting or not....it's a story that has been written during 4 books. And in the case of the show it has been settled since Since 3, with each season, without no exception, hinting at them. What is the purpose of that if that is not gonna happen?

I see your point about the possibility of Jaime dying, Brienne surviving and she ending with another. If that occurs, she will be extremely miserable, and given her personality, I don't think she would settle with another in the next few years. So in the show, they should have to make an Epilogue and even with that it wouldn't be realistic or convincing for Brienne's characterisation.

Another aspect to take into account is that in 4 seasons, JB's story has been moved very slowly, because she is shy and he was not prepared to ackowledge that he was falling for Brienne. Given Brienne's personality, again, she wouldn't go to Tormund as soon as Jaime dies. She is an idealistic. She spends several time to realise she even wants Jaime! It's just completely impossible Tormund and Brienne end up together, and if they do, she won't be happy. And not because of Tormund, but because she would have lost the love of her life and she doesn't like forced marriages.

 

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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6 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

I think Tormund and Brienne was just to hint that Brienne is desirable. There's nothing there, it's not going to happen. Brienne wants Jaime, she's not just going to suddenly settle for someone else. It was amusing, I loved the way the Tormund actor played it. But it's just a Hyle Hunt thing, someone else wants her... so go get her, Jaime...

"You want her? Go get her." So he did.

This!!!

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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On 24.07.2016 at 6:13 PM, Meera of Tarth said:

But then you think it's normal he doesn't care that she slept with another man?

You want him to be Jaime 'I not lurve u anymoar Cersi' Lannister but then complain when he doesn't care if she was with another man (if he knows and believes).

Make up your mind. Do you want him to care, which would show he still has feelings for her, or not care?

S6 Jaime makes sense. Every scene of his shows him drifting away from Cersei, doing things the way Cersei wouldn't want him to, having those moments with Brienne, trying to avoid bloodshed etc. Even his initial scene with Cersei (comforting her over Myrcella) is understandable. She's a grieving mother and he's a grieving father of the deceased. He'd have been a cruel dick to scorn her under those circumstances. It'd have been him taking a step backwards on his path to redemption. And that's not what the fans want right? Show Jaime needs more time and incentive to break away from Cersei, as their relationship has not been as simplistic as it's been in the books and show Cersei is not as evil and one-note as her book counterpart, @A spoon of knife and fork made a great case for s6's Jaime here. Generally speaking, it seems that some people who tend to (over)analyse every single paassage in ASOIAF, can't be bothered to scratch beyond the surface of GOT while they watch with one eye closed.

Jaime says one thing and does the other? Wow so like a human tends to do. Fancy that. Characters lie to others ('I love Cersei with all my heart') to reach a goal, are in denial or not yet fully in tune with their feelings? How human of them.

Why is it that people expect characters to be : robotic, infallible, omniscient, truthful (always) stagnant (and then complain about the seeming lack of character growth), always completely aware of what they feel/want, never changing their minds?

That's being one-dimensional and not human-like.

Anyway, it's not regarding Jaime but it's worth reminding that character development doesn't only have to be positive/redemptive. There can be a negative one too. See Mad King, Lady Stoneheart, Sansa or people's expectations for rezzed Jon (less forgiving/noble, ruthless etc) to name a few examples.

Edited by Darksky

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You want him to be Jaime 'I not lurve u anymoar Cersi' Lannister but then complain when he doesn't care if she was with another man (if he knows and believes).

Make up your mind. Do you want him to care, which would show he still has feelings for her, or not care?

We were discussing whether or not Jaime knew about Cersei's act of adultery, since I thought everyone would reallistically knew.

Responding to your question, in terms of season characterisation, and considering my quote on that matter, I'd prefer him to care.

In terms of what I'd really like: also caring about that, but showing more premature signs of disillusion would have been better in my opinion.

Quote

S6 Jaime makes sense. Every scene of his shows him drifting away from Cersei, doing things the way Cersei wouldn't want him to, having those moments with Brienne, trying to avoid bloodshed etc. Even his initial scene with Cersei (comforting her over Myrcella) is understandable. She's a grieving mother and he's a grieving father of the deceased. He'd have been a cruel dick to scorn her under those circumstances. It'd have been him taking a step backwards on his path to redemption. And that's not what the fans want right? Show Jaime needs more time and incentive to break away from Cersei, as their relationship has not been as simplistic as it's been in the books and show Cersei is not as evil and one-note as her book counterpart, @A spoon of knife and fork made a great case for s6's Jaime here.

I don't think s6 Jaime makes sense in KG except for some scenes. These scenes include the ones you mention, as I pointed out during this thread and others.

Yes, we agreed on some things as you have read. It was a refreshing debate.

Quote

Generally speaking, it seems that some people who tend to (over)analyse every single paassage in ASOIAF, can't be bothered to scratch beyond the surface of GOT while they watch with one eye closed.

The purpose of this thread is not to scratch anything, but to discuss Jaime and Brienne's relationship both in the show and in the books.

I haven't done any of these things, on the contrary. It's an interesting thread to read if one is interested in what is going to happen between those characters, no matter what side we are in.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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29 minutes ago, Darksky said:

 

Anyway, it's not regarding Jaime but it's worth reminding that character development doesn't only have to be positive/redemptive. There can be a negative one too. See Mad King, Lady Stoneheart, Sansa or people's expectations for rezzed Jon (less forgiving/noble, ruthless etc) to name a few examples.

I agree with that. But In my humble opinion Jaime has a redemptive arc. And that doesn't mean he is going to be perfect, but he clearly is better person than in the Pilot/book 1.

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1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

But look at her face:

Of course she is rejecting him.

She is in love with another man and she doesn't want to be with another. And given her face, the sexual attraction is one-sided.

I see more "I am disturbed, confused, and embarrassed by what is happening someone please help me escape the awkwardness".  Lol.

i don't think she is thinking of Jaime and how he only wants him.  To be honest like in the book she is likely trying hard not to think of him most of the time.  Here she is thinking that this is a type of attention she has no training to deal with.  Also she may be thinking of the bet she talked about with Pod.  That so far men have only shown interest in her that were lying.  

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I am not analysing Tormund's inside. I agree he could be gentle and sensitive :)

He might find someone else but in this story but it can't be Brienne.

A romance doesn't have to be foreshadowed, but in my opinion it needs the two parts to be interested, if not is unrequited. Apart from that, they have not even shared a sentence, so he, at most, is attracted to her, there is no love, no story.

It's not about opposites attracting or not....it's a story that has been written during 4 books. And in the case of the show it has been settled since Since 3, with each season, without no exception, hinting at them. What is the purpose of that if that is not gonna happen?

I see your point about the possibility of Jaime dying, Brienne surviving and she ending with another. If that occurs, she will be extremely miserable, and given her personality, I don't think she would settle with another in the next few years. So in the show, they should have to make an Epilogue and even with that it wouldn't be realistic or convincing for Brienne's characterisation.

For sure Brienne would be upset if Jaime died but I think / hope that if he has a "good death" - a redeeming one - say if his actions let others survive - that she will recover relatively quickly from sorrow.  Because she would know that he was happy how things ended.  That it was the way he wanted things to go.  That because she loves him truely and not selfishly, she would carry that legacy forward.

I would also hope that being loved by Jaime would allow Brienne to know that she is worthy of love and that will help her attain it again, on her own terms. 

I agree with you that there is not sufficient time for Tormund and that he is basically Ser Hyle In her story.  A relationship that exists to demonstrate to Brienne they she may be desirable.  

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40 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

I see more "I am disturbed, confused, and embarrassed by what is happening someone please help me escape the awkwardness".  Lol.

i don't think she is thinking of Jaime and how he only wants him.  To be honest like in the book she is likely trying hard not to think of him most of the time.  Here she is thinking that this is a type of attention she has no training to deal with.  Also she may be thinking of the bet she talked about with Pod.  That so far men have only shown interest in her that were lying.   

I agree on that she is disturbed and embarrassed, but she doesn't like him, as well. If she liked him her expression would be totally different more like a surprise. In the last scene, in particular, she looks at him as if he was repulsive, and that is the result of his previous looks at her. The last scene confirms us that she is not attracted to him at all.

Yes, she tries not to think about him in the books, but she can't no longer control that, and that is because she has fallen for him.

And in the show there's that similar shyness, trying not to talk about him, but when she faces him, her facial expression changes. She tries to look even more serious but she fails on that. She can't hide it, although she wants to.

Here it is shown that she can't hide it: I copied+pasted the exact moment.

And in this one in the moment she says she will find the Stark girls for Him, and she is nervous but trying to be serious:

https://youtu.be/rlJWgOizJMo?t=83

Quote

For sure Brienne would be upset if Jaime died but I think / hope that if he has a "good death" - a redeeming one - say if his actions let others survive - that she will recover relatively quickly from sorrow.  Because she would know that he was happy how things ended.  That it was the way he wanted things to go.  That because she loves him truely and not selfishly, she would carry that legacy forward.

I would also hope that being loved by Jaime would allow Brienne to know that she is worthy of love and that will help her attain it again, on her own terms. 

I agree with you that there is not sufficient time for Tormund and that he is basically Ser Hyle In her story.  A relationship that exists to demonstrate to Brienne they she may be desirable.

 

I think she would be upset, but understand he did it for the greater good.

She might have something with another one, but that would be another story. This story is about them and Jaime as the love of her life. Yeras would happen and it wouldn't be the same love she experienced with Jaime.

And yeah, Tormund is the adaptation of Hyle Hunt.

Edited by Meera of Tarth
edited first paragraph

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16 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

But look at her face:

Of course she is rejecting him.

She is in love with another man and she doesn't want to be with another. And given her face, the sexual attraction is one-sided.

I am not analysing Tormund's inside. I agree he could be gentle and sensitive :)

He might find someone else but in this story but it can't be Brienne.

Yes, I agree. She's of course comparing him to the one she loves. It's not about superficial things, but about the fact that she loves another.

Quote

A romance doesn't have to be foreshadowed, but in my opinion it needs the two parts to be interested, if not is unrequited. Apart from that, they have not even shared a sentence, so he, at most, is attracted to her, there is no love, no story.

Do you think that in the next two books Brienne's endgame is marrying Tormund? It would be very bad writing and trolling. I don't think they won't even meet, but if so, there won't be a romantic story between them. If Ser Hyle Hunt is still alive, Brienne won't end with him willingly.

It's not about opposites attracting or not....it's a story that has been written during 4 books. And in the case of the show it has been settled since Since 3, with each season, without no exception, hinting at them. What is the purpose of that if that is not gonna happen?

I see your point about the possibility of Jaime dying, Brienne surviving and she ending with another. If that occurs, she will be extremely miserable, and given her personality, I don't think she would settle with another in the next few years. So in the show, they should have to make an Epilogue and even with that it wouldn't be realistic or convincing for Brienne's characterisation.

Another aspect to take into account is that in 4 seasons, JB's story has been moved very slowly, because she is shy and he was not prepared to ackowledge that he was falling for Brienne. Given Brienne's personality, again, she wouldn't go to Tormund as soon as Jaime dies. She is an idealistic. She spends several time to realise she even wants Jaime! It's just completely impossible Tormund and Brienne end up together, and if they do, she won't be happy. And not because of Tormund, but because she would have lost the love of her life and she doesn't like forced marriages.

Yep, there has to be a story. And it's extremely unlikely Brienne will even meet Tormund in the books. He's there to contrast her feelings for Jaime.

She's in no hurry to get married. She fell in love.

13 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I agree on that she is disturbed and embarrassed, but she doesn't like him, as well. If she liked him her expression would be totally different more like a surprise. In the last scene, in particular, she finds his gestures repulsive. The first ones are more ambiguous, but the last one confirms us that she is not attracted at all.

Yeah, it matters what the woman wants. And they didn't show Brienne wanting Tormund. I think women making the choice within their hearts of who they want to be with is especially important when the culture places little value on such things.

So that's an important thing to show, and they did show it in the case of Jaime. They showed that she desires him. So if they were going to move on and tell a different romance, they would show that she desires him, too. But they didn't.

Quote

Yes, she tries not to think about him in the books, but she can't no longer control that, and that is because she has fallen for him.

And in the show there's that similar shyness, trying not to talk about him, but when she faces him, her facial expression changes. She tries to look even more serious but she fails on that. She can't hide it, although she wants to.

I don't think she tries not to think about Jaime, she tries to tamp down the romantic feelings at times, but other times, she seems to quite enjoy them. And she is always thinking of him in other ways, the things they did together, their mission, etc.

13 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I think she would be upset, but understand he did it for the greater good.

She might have something with another one, but that would be another story. This story is about them and Jaime as the love of her life. Yeras would happen and it wouldn't be the same love she experienced with Jaime.

And yeah, Tormund is the adaptation of Hyle Hunt.

I think she would be upset for a long time. She would not move on quickly at all.

Edited by Le Cygne

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6 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Yeah, it matters what the woman wants. And they didn't show Brienne wanting Tormund. I think women making the choice within their hearts of who they want to be with is especially important when the culture places little value on such things.

So that's an important thing to show, and they did show it in the case of Jaime. They showed that she desires him. So if they were going to move on and tell a different romance, they would show that she desires him, too. But they didn't.

I don't think she tries not to think about Jaime, she tries to tamp down the romantic feelings at times, but other times, she seems to quite enjoy them. And she is always thinking of him in other ways, the things they did together, their mission, etc.

oh yes, good point. Maybe during s5 it was only Jaime that remembered Brienne onscreen but she might have thought about him too. And when they are together they talk about their past as well.

And about the woman desiring, that is totally true. Next season they could make her seem to enjoy Tormund's flirting, but I don't think they will go that way. But it should be a must if they wanted them together.

By the way, JB has been established in the show. And now that Cersei has gone mad, they are less obstacles in their love.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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@Darksky

Thanks for the shout out.

I think the people are too harsh on Jaime simply because Cersei acts differently, which I think is weird.

There are, I think, 3 (ish) moments in S5 and S6 that are (potentially) worrisome about his character arc.  I'd like to go through each one and talk about why I think each one is not such a problem.  

1) When Jaime says he'll kill Tyrion if he ever sees him again (s5...forget which Ep)

2) When Jaime says to Cersei that no one else matters but them in S6E1

3) When Jaime tells Edmure that he loves Cersei and he'll kill every Tully if he has to in S6E8

1) is understandable, since Tyrion just killed Jaime's father...  Maybe show!Jaime doesn't even know about what Tywin put Tyrion through, so doesn't understand how justified it is.  Jaime does have some dark thoughts about Tyrion and Tywin's death in his first AFFC chapter, though mostly they are to blame himself.  I guess that the show runners need (for plot reasons) for Jaime and Tyrion to have some conflict when they reunite.  Since they left out Tysha, then the negative feelings have to come from Jaime (because Tyrion has no reason at all to be upset at Jaime). 

2) Cersei JUST found out their daughter is dead.  And then, she acted like she was in despair.  This is an emotion that is almost alien for Cersei to express.  Jaime wants to say something to get her to return to herself.  This is the kind of thing that she would say to him, in the past.  He is echoing it back.  It's more than obvious that he doesn't believe what he's saying, given A) Aerys.  B ) his actions in defense of the Tyrells, Brienne, and others throughout the Season C) his shock at what she did in the end of the season. 

We've discussed 3) a lot in this thread.  Jaime is "playing the Kingslayer" in order to convince Edmure he is serious.  It's a Bluff, just like in the book.  I JUST reread the book scene last night and Jaime is more of a bastard there than in the show.  Both in what he's thinking and in what he's saying.

Anyway, I don't know what else people have to be upset at Jaime for.  Other than those 3 things he SAID (not DID), Jaime didn't do anything objectionable, IMO.  He "worked with Cersei" seems to be the general trend of people's annoyance, but AGAIN, Cersei is acting differently than in the book, where she is constantly insulting him to his face, and sleeping around with like 2 different people.  So what exactly is it that doesn't make sense??   I don't know.

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10 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Yeah, it matters what the woman wants. And they didn't show Brienne wanting Tormund. I think women making the choice within their hearts of who they want to be with is especially important when the culture places little value on such things.

I don't think she tries not to think about Jaime, she tries to tamp down the romantic feelings at times, but other times, she seems to quite enjoy them. And she is always thinking of him in other ways, the things they did together, their mission, etc.

Meera made the argument that Brienne is "rejecting" Tormund in that scene because she loves Jaime. 

My point, in context, was that Brienne does not think of Jaime when Tormund is making his move.  Just like she does not think of Jaime when Hyle makes his move.  Instead, i both cases, Brienne is thinking about her past encounters with men who expressed desire towards her (falsely) - which is a past she feels shamed about.  

10 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

I think she would be upset for a long time. She would not move on quickly at all.

I think she would want to work to move forward Jaime's legacy and would take her duty very seriously (as always).  She would be a confident and whole person, and would attract attention as a result.  I haven't suffered the death of a lover but most people do tend (statistically) to move on after a few years.  I see no reason why Brienne would be different.  (And no I don't believe Tormund is "the one" any more than you do).  

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15 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

@Darksky

Thanks for the shout out.

I think the people are too harsh on Jaime simply because Cersei acts differently, which I think is weird.

There are, I think, 3 (ish) moments in S5 and S6 that are (potentially) worrisome about his character arc.  I'd like to go through each one and talk about why I think each one is not such a problem.  

1) When Jaime says he'll kill Tyrion if he ever sees him again (s5...forget which Ep)

2) When Jaime says to Cersei that no one else matters but them in S6E1

3) When Jaime tells Edmure that he loves Cersei and he'll kill every Tully if he has to in S6E8

1) is understandable, since Tyrion just killed Jaime's father...  Maybe show!Jaime doesn't even know about what Tywin put Tyrion through, so doesn't understand how justified it is.  Jaime does have some dark thoughts about Tyrion and Tywin's death in his first AFFC chapter, though mostly they are to blame himself.  I guess that the show runners need (for plot reasons) for Jaime and Tyrion to have some conflict when they reunite.  Since they left out Tysha, then the negative feelings have to come from Jaime (because Tyrion has no reason at all to be upset at Jaime). 

2) Cersei JUST found out their daughter is dead.  And then, she acted like she was in despair.  This is an emotion that is almost alien for Cersei to express.  Jaime wants to say something to get her to return to herself.  This is the kind of thing that she would say to him, in the past.  He is echoing it back.  It's more than obvious that he doesn't believe what he's saying, given A) Aerys.  B ) his actions in defense of the Tyrells, Brienne, and others throughout the Season C) his shock at what she did in the end of the season. 

We've discussed 3) a lot in this thread.  Jaime is "playing the Kingslayer" in order to convince Edmure he is serious.  It's a Bluff, just like in the book.  I JUST reread the book scene last night and Jaime is more of a bastard there than in the show.  Both in what he's thinking and in what he's saying.

Anyway, I don't know what else people have to be upset at Jaime for.  Other than those 3 things he SAID (not DID), Jaime didn't do anything objectionable, IMO.  He "worked with Cersei" seems to be the general trend of people's annoyance, but AGAIN, Cersei is acting differently than in the book, where she is constantly insulting him to his face, and sleeping around with like 2 different people.  So what exactly is it that doesn't make sense??   I don't know.

1) doesn't bother me

2) partially. I perfectly agree it's understandable he wants to confort her, although I don't like that last sentence, but since they were still in Cersei+Jaime territory, I won't complain more about that here.

3)The only thing that bothered me was Cersei's line again. He is playing KL and that is ok for me.In fact, this i spossible the best solution.

 I know he wouldn't do that (I hope so). And in the books it's similar. That scene (except for the Cersei part that, as JB shipper, didn't like) was one of the best scenes from S6. Both NCW and Tobias M. were amazing!!!

I don't want to go off-topic but in my opinion  the thing I didn't like about Jaime in KG is the fact that he was acting like the "puppet" of Cersei, instead of his lover/brother, and didn't investigate enough Cersei's trial. But we already discussed that, with similar and also opposite points of view. There is a thread about that to talk about that particular point.

If in s7 Jaime doesn't move on I'll be frustrated, but the last scene of s7 game me hope because the relationship between Cersei and Jaime seems to be  about to be broken, and the actors agree on that in the interviews. I would have preferred it to occur before, but I can wait tillnext season :)

 

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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