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Lothar

Director Mark Mylod on this week's episode

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And I think you all should watch it again trying to separate the series from the books. You are all making assumptions based on things that are not shown nor hinted at simply because they happen in the books, and calling the writers stupid because you perceive the result to be contradictory.

26 minutes ago, Rhollo said:

Nonononono, not Jamie. If she had confessed to incest with Jamie, it's game over. Cersei would be awaiting her death penalty for treason and Tommen would be illigitimate. That is the one thing she can NEVER admit.

There you go, you could be Peasant #2 in the argument why they called it fornication and not incest.

The trial still happened at closed doors so no one knows what the accusations are past the charges. It´s likely that those of the royalty who even know about them might doubt about the veracity of most of them. Wouldn´t the Queen of Thorns see the faith-militant Lancel simply setting the Lannisters up without actually  causing upheaval in a fragilized kingdom - the way her own Margaery was setup? If it´s even somewhat clear that the High Sparrow is trying to do a religious coup by manipulating Tommen (instead of causing another war of succesion), it would make sense to preserve the accusation of incest.

ps-mind you, this last part is not me saying she was accused of incest, just trying to show that the link between "she was charged with fornication" and "someone goes tell Jaime that his sister is ´having an affair´" is very weak.

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So you're Jaime and you hear that Cersei has been charged with fornication and she confessed to it.  What are you thinking? 

You know she didn't confess to sleeping with her brother because you would be immediately under arrest.  So you can rule that one right out.

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1 hour ago, Lothar said:

So you're Jaime and you hear that Cersei has been charged with fornication and she confessed to it.  What are you thinking? 

That she´s been setup based on the widespread rumour involving yourself.

Denial? Maybe so, even though he did spend a lot of time away from King´s Landing during the questionable Dorne mission, but that denial has Lannister written all over it. Book Jaime wonders wheter Tyrion just wanted to hurt him. He´s exactly the kind of person who doesn´t want to believe such thing, and who would not believe it coming from anyone that´s not absolutely trusted by him. Such scene should be on screen if it ever happened. If it´s not, we shouldn´t assume it happened and we didn´t see, we should assume it didn´t happen, especially considering Jaime acts like it.

 

ps- It´s probably good to remember that Cersei is his sister, not his wife, and that talking to him about her love affairs as if they concerned him would virtually be openly subscribing to the incest, which I don´t think is something 99% of people in Westeros would do.

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Show Jamie thinks the only person Cersie has slept with other than him is Robert.

Is this a bit clumsy concerning her walk of shame - like exactly who is she guilty of fornicating? Yes. possibly. I think show Jamie is still deluded enough to think she is accused of fornicating him. Or just thinks the accusations are false. Why? Love is blind and, as the story keeps telling us, in book and show, the things we love destroy us (which the show thinks it's clever into abbreviating as the things we do for love) - Jamie is still being destroyed.

This is all leading to a point, I'm sure, when show Jamie does discover that Cersie had been fucking cousin Lancel, likely after show Cersie goes wildfire and inadvertently kills Tommen. Why like this? For dramatic impact on TV - You killed our son, you cheating whore!!! Now I must stick a valyrian steel sword (which I will get from somewhere, probably the half of Ned's that Joffrey had) through your Nyssa Nyssa ish heart.

Killing Cersie will set Jamie free and stop him being destroyed. Rather than the thing he loves destroying him, he will destroy the thing he loves and thus be a hero in the thematic rules of this story.

I don't know what is worse, the way the show is going about it or Jamie walking around for half a novel like a teenage girl that has had it's heart broken for the first time. A far better way to tell it would be directly:

Jamie: Laugh if you want but I still love my sister and would do anything for her.

Edmure: But the whole realm knows she is guilty of fornication?

Jamie: A lie!

Edmure: You're deluded. Mad.

Jamie: No, I am in love.

And Edmure gives in because he is scared of how fucking insane Jamie's love is.

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14 minutes ago, ummester said:

Show Jamie thinks the only person Cersie has slept with other than him is Robert.

Is this a bit clumsy concerning her walk of shame - like exactly who is she guilty of fornicating? Yes. possibly. I think show Jamie is still deluded enough to think she is accused of fornicating him. Or just thinks the accusations are false. Why? Love is blind and, as the story keeps telling us, in book and show, the things we love destroy us (which the show thinks it's clever into abbreviating as the things we do for love) - Jamie is still being destroyed.

This is all leading to a point, I'm sure, when show Jamie does discover that Cersie had been fucking cousin Lancel, likely after show Cersie goes wildfire and inadvertently kills Tommen. Why like this? For dramatic impact on TV - You killed our son, you cheating whore!!! Now I must stick a valyrian steel sword (which I will get from somewhere, probably the half of Ned's that Joffrey had) through your Nyssa Nyssa ish heart.

Killing Cersie will set Jamie free and stop him being destroyed. Rather than the thing he loves destroying him, he will destroy the thing he loves and thus be a hero the thematic rules of this story.

I don't know what is worse, the way the show is going about it or Jamie walking around for half a novel like a teenage girl that has had it's heart broken for the first time.

It's unlikely that Jaime discovers that after one season, ithink it's just a plothole derived from the fact twincest had to continue. I don't think that plothole will have a resolution; but if they have to come apart, and major things happened like those that are suggested, there will be no need to address the sin of fornicating Lancel.

If he believes Cersei when she has told him offscreen that she is not a siner, (only thing that could explain the plothole) then why should him want to kill her=? He would be upset, but nothing more....he still loves her..or thinks he does.... I think that major act can't happen....or at least  not any time soon.

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2 hours ago, NutBurz said:

That she´s been setup based on the widespread rumour involving yourself.

Like I said, it's crazy to think that Jaime wouldn't be under arrest if the queen confessed to being guilty to incest, which means she'd be saying Jaime is guilty of incest.  There's no possible way he would think she did the Walk of Atonement because she confessed to incest.

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On 6/15/2016 at 4:10 PM, Cas Stark said:

These people are DEMENTED.

So, the Blackfish carries shame that he wasn't at the right place at the right time to save his family.  Therefore, when his family asks for his help in saving them...he tells them to fuck off.

I guess when you remember these are the people that had the Sand Snakes take revenge for their dead Martell relatives by killing the rest of their Martell relatives...it makes sense that this would be their take.

 

The fact that people can't see how stupid that is (my family's been murdered so I will kill my family!!) gives me some hope I'm not a "hater."

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On 6/15/2016 at 4:16 PM, TickTak7 said:

I think it all comes down to interpretation. 

I viewed that scene as the Blackfish realizing that Brienne could help Sansa so much more than he ever could, and therefore prioritized getting her safe (essentially staying behind to protect that tunnel so she could use the boat to get away). 

In that regard, he did what he thought was best for his family. 

I don't think it was a one or another decision here at all. 

 

It's true, why have more than one helper/warrior/greatest military commander in Westeros on your side at a time? It makes no sense. When you take your party into battle you only have room for so many.

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26 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

It's unlikely that Jaime discovers that after one season, ithink it's just a plothole derived from the fact twincest had to continue. I don't think that plothole will have a resolution; but if they have to come apart, and major things happened like those that are suggested, there will be no need to address the sin of fornicating Lancel.

If he believes Cersei when she has told him offscreen that she is not a siner, (only thing that could explain the plothole) then why should him want to kill her=? He would be upset, but nothing more....he still loves her..or thinks he does.... I think that major act can't happen....or at least  not any time soon.

Yes, I don't think Jamie will return to Cersie this season - though I could be wrong. I'm not even sure Cersie will wildfire Tommen this season - perhaps right at the end of the season, as a type of cliffhanger.

The sin of fornicating Lancel is relevant to Jamie's perspective/heart - GRRM spent way too many pages telling us this. Jamie will think he loves Cersie until she kills Tommen and he finds out about cousin Lancel, in show - but I agree it likely won't happen this season.

The whole twincest thing is just controversy - our hero is a sister fucking attempted child murderer, how edgy is that - but it's the same in the book. The important thing will be that he gets over it.

Remember, D&D have said there is not that much story left. They know they are dragging this out, albeit poorly. If this story was being told at it's correct pace, Jamie would be killing Cersie this season and next season would just be final conflicts and conclusion. But, because of human greed (which is surprisingly ironic given the themes in the story :D ) we have to endure the conclusion for longer than necessary - we have to witness something we love destroy itself.

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11 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

 

 

On 6/16/2016 at 0:10 AM, Cas Stark said:

These people are DEMENTED.

So, the Blackfish carries shame that he wasn't at the right place at the right time to save his family.  Therefore, when his family asks for his help in saving them...he tells them to fuck off.

I guess when you remember these are the people that had the Sand Snakes take revenge for their dead Martell relatives by killing the rest of their Martell relatives...it makes sense that this would be their take.

And here I was, thinking that they had killed their relatives because they are bad pussy 

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9 minutes ago, ummester said:

Yes, I don't think Jamie will return to Cersie this season - though I could be wrong. I'm not even sure Cersie will wildfire Tommen this season - perhaps right at the end of the season, as a type of cliffhanger.

The sin of fornicating Lancel is relevant to Jamie's perspective/heart - GRRM spent way too many pages telling us this. Jamie will think he loves Cersie until she kills Tommen and he finds out about cousin Lancel, in show - but I agree it likely won't happen this season.

The whole twincest thing is just controversy - our hero is a sister fucking attempted child murderer, how edgy is that - but it's the same in the book. The important thing will be that he gets over it.

Remember, D&D have said there is not that much story left. They know they are dragging this out, albeit poorly. If this story was being told at it's correct pace, Jamie would be killing Cersie this season and next season would just be final conflicts and conclusion. But, because of human greed (which is surprisingly ironic given the themes in the story :D ) we have to endure the conclusion for longer than necessary - we have to witness something we love destroy itself.

oh....so true........

and yet in his late interview Ncw says Jaime loves Cersei and Brienne.....so the mixture is even more complex

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1 minute ago, Meera of Tarth said:

oh....so true........

and yet in his late interview Ncw says Jaime loves Cersei and Brienne.....so the mixture is even more complex

I think he loves Cersie romantically, passionately (I mean Lena is hot, right?) and he loves Brienne idealistically, honourably (I mean she's not much of a looker but she's a nice person, right?). This is a bog standard male hormone conflict - can you feel for the nice ugly girl even if they don't appeal to you visually? Of course this story has the extra layer of the passion being incestuous :D

Think about it, it wouldn't really work the other way around (not from a male character perspective, anyway). If Cersie was his ugly sister - let's say Cersie was born a dwarf and she was introverted with a nice nature, would we buy Jamie being passionate towards her so easily? And then if this honourable and fine looking woman stepped into his life, offering both more in the personality and looks department than what he was getting from his twincest, what reason would Jamie really have for remaining a sister fucker?

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3 minutes ago, ummester said:

I think he loves Cersie romantically, passionately (I mean Lena is hot, right?) and he loves Brienne idealistically, honourably (I mean she's not much of a looker but she's a nice person, right?). This is a bog standard male hormone conflict - can you feel for the nice ugly girl even if they don't appeal to you visually? Of course this story has the extra layer of the passion being incestuous :D

Think about it, it wouldn't really work the other way around (not from a male character perspective, anyway). If Cersie was his ugly sister - let's say Cersie was born a dwarf and she was introverted with a nice nature, would we buy Jamie being passionate towards her so easily? And then if this honourable and fine looking woman stepped into his life, offering both more in the personality and looks department than what he was getting from his twincest, what reason would Jamie really have for remaining a sister fucker?

but Cersei appart from being passional or pretty looking is all what he has known; he remarks that in the intervirew.

while Brienne's is the only other love he has already kbown and bcause of her bein "ugly" she can only be a pure love.

but in thr books it is more clear than (apart from him distancing himself from Cersei) he begins to appreciate Brienne's eyes and she appears naked in one of his dreams.

Martin is writing a beauty and the beast story with Jaime and Brienne (Brienne bwing the beauty but the beast in looks and Jaime being the beast but the beauty in looks). We all kbow that to fall in love with the beast the beauty first has to fall in love with the inner side and that's exactly what is happening and goes both ways she for him and he for her.

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33 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

but Cersei appart from being passional or pretty looking is all what he has known; he remarks that in the intervirew.

while Brienne's is the only other love he has already kbown and bcause of her bein "ugly" she can only be a pure love.

but in thr books it is more clear than (apart from him distancing himself from Cersei) he begins to appreciate Brienne's eyes and she appears naked in one of his dreams.

Martin is writing a beauty and the beast story with Jaime and Brienne (Brienne bwing the beauty but the beast in looks and Jaime being the beast but the beauty in looks). We all kbow that to fall in love with the beast the beauty first has to fall in love with the inner side and that's exactly what is happening and goes both ways she for him and he for her.

Oh yes, for sure, Jamie is trying to reconcile his feelings for Brienne and passion/lust plays a part. He's a dude, with a functional penis :D He's not Theon or Varys, as far as I know.

In the show this was shown by Brienne being naked in the bath scene and (again clumsily) by Bronn going on about how he'd fuck her and he thinks Jamie would. From Bronn it's not high praise though - he is a self confessed guy without a type that would no doubt fuck anything :D

But, I don't think you are going to get a beauty and the beast ending where Jamie and Brienne live happily every after. Jamie will die - probably killed by Bran, or the Nights King controlled by Bran. But, Brienne might live and remember him as a hero - as a side note, I think their love will remain physically unrequited also (but that is neither here not there, in the grand scheme of things thematically - the show will probably put it in because you know, sex sells and the books will probably have it internalised).

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59 minutes ago, Lothar said:

Like I said, it's crazy to think that Jaime wouldn't be under arrest if the queen confessed to being guilty to incest, which means she'd be saying Jaime is guilty of incest.  There's no possible way he would think she did the Walk of Atonement because she confessed to incest.

So let me explain in details what I meant, because again, I´m not saying he think she confessed to incest.

-It´s been estabilished before that the rumours regarding the incest are everywhere. Anyone with half a proof would have the entire realm and a treason accusation of leverage over them in case they were blackmailed.

-Maegary Tyrrel was not actually guilty of anything in the show before she swore the wrong thing on trial, and any account of the scene leads to that interpretation. She was set-up at closed doors.

-Cersei is accused of and confesses to sexual crimes, and is publicly humiliated. Jaime is not there to see her imprisioned, he doesn´t witness her breaking up, all he knows he that she accepted that unthinkable humiliation for the sake of her son. He must suppose that people threatened her with something equally unthinkable, like revealing the incest with some sort of proof.

-We know Cersei is almost purely evil, but Jaime, like he says in the last episode, ignores most things writing them off as her being a "fierce mother". She is the mother of his children, they are being murdered in series, how would he not admire her for being fierce? He dropped a kid from a tower, his morals are extremely schewed.

-The same way Margaery was set-up, in Jaime´s mind the High-Sparrow could have set Cersei up using Lancel to lie about sleeping with the Queen. A lie Cersei would have confessed to in order not to have a worse truth revealed.

 

Try watching their scenes again, Jaime repeating to an almost broken Cersei the same discourse she made him when he was almost broken about how it´s them against everyone; both were not present during each other´s greatest ordeal and Jaime believes he´s going to set everything right now.

The coldness of Jaime´s speech about Edmure´s son is much more telling when viewed in light of his own last son being robbed from him by the Sparrow. The show is trying to tell us that Jaime is putting all his eggs in the Cersei basket. Where we go from here might be, in my opinion, about as interesting as in the books.

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6 hours ago, NutBurz said:

Yes, Jaime.

Are you saying those people would understand the nuances between fornication and incest when gossiping, especially when one implies the other anyway? Even the most informed peasant could argue that they couldn´t charge them with incest because the Targaryens did it, "so they call it fornication".

I have no idea how you conclude everyone must know that Cersei was screwing someone else, and I have no idea how you conclude that the gossips of the uninformed rabble would be enough evidence for Jaime. At least he would think they were exaggerating based on how serious the real accusation was.

And most important than anything, if Jaime had this information, it had to be shown, in any way.

Yes. Because incest is a different charge, a charge that is still active against her.  So, her brother, dumb as he is in the show, can't think that the "fornication" is about their incest.

Everyone knows that Cersei was screwing someone else because she confessed to FORNICATION, and she is still to be tried for incest, and maybe regicide also.

And she confessed. 

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If she´s charged with incest, the rightful king is some unknown Baratheon, and the last one that mattered burned images of the Seven. No, thank you, says the high sparrow.

You might want to read my post just above yours in case you missed it.

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2 minutes ago, NutBurz said:

If she´s charged with incest, the rightful king is some unknown Baratheon, and the last one that mattered burned images of the Seven. No, thank you, says the high sparrow.

More than burnt images - he burnt followers. I think it's reasonable to assume the HS has no idea about Gendry, also, considering the entire plot seems to have forgotten him :D

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4 minutes ago, ummester said:

More than burnt images - he burnt followers. I think it's reasonable to assume the HS has no idea about Gendry, also, considering the entire plot seems to have forgotten him :D

It would be hilarious if, in case he comes back for whatever reason, his first scene was him rowing back to shore. I would legitimately love the cheesyness.

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Just now, NutBurz said:

It would be hilarious if, in case he comes back for whatever reason, his first scene was him rowing back to shore. I would legitimately love the cheesyness.

:D

Perhaps Bran put his boat in a time bubble - in which Gendry is trapped repeating 'just keep rowing, just keep rowing'.

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