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Ser Hyle

How does The Brotherhood know about the White Walkers?

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I'm curious why the Brotherhood Without Banners is intent on going North to fight the impending attack from the White Walkers and their wight army? Was there a clue that I missed? Or is it just assumed that Thoros has seen it in the flames?

Also, what are the chances that Lem Lemoncloak and his BWB splinter cell is lead by Lady Stoneheart? We didn't get any explanation why they would choose to slaughter dozens of harmless innocents. LSH might be an explanation, albeit a weak one, because why would she want these people killed when there are Freys out there that need to be hanged?

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The fact that Berric is still around is a good indication that LSH is not around as it's his magic that passes to her.

Either Thoros saw it in the Flames or Melissandre mentioned something when she was down to get Gendry. Although that would mean that they've been sitting around waiting since then. Perhaps it's both. Melisandre mentioned that there was a looming danger in the North and since then Thoros has been looking at the flames to see when it is due to arrive.

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We aren't getting LSH. This episode all but confirmed it. 

Also:

"Good and bad. Young and old. The things we are fighting will destroy them all alike"

That's what Beric says to The Hound - I would assume he is referring to The White Walkers? No idea how they would know about them, but it appears as though they do, and it appears as though The Hound's story is going to remain North. 

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I assumed that Thoros must have seen the White Walkers in the fire and unlike Mel, he did not misread the vision.

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55 minutes ago, TickTak7 said:

We aren't getting LSH. This episode all but confirmed it. 

Also:

"Good and bad. Young and old. The things we are fighting will destroy them all alike"

That's what Beric says to The Hound - I would assume he is referring to The White Walkers? No idea how they would know about them, but it appears as though they do, and it appears as though The Hound's story is going to remain North. 

Yeah he also said

"The cold winds are rising in the North"

which again, I would definetly assume is the WW.

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4 hours ago, The Dames do Moan said:

Yeah he also said

"The cold winds are rising in the North"

which again, I would definetly assume is the WW.

Oh yeah, nice catch. I missed that one. 

Yep. 

Very curious to know HOW the Brotherhood would know about the White Walkers, as I'm not really sure there's a plausible explanation for that - if they knew, wouldn't most of Westeros therefore know? Rendering all these other conflicts meaningless?

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7 hours ago, Ser Hyle said:

I'm curious why the Brotherhood Without Banners is intent on going North to fight the impending attack from the White Walkers and their wight army? Was there a clue that I missed? Or is it just assumed that Thoros has seen it in the flames?

Also, what are the chances that Lem Lemoncloak and his BWB splinter cell is lead by Lady Stoneheart? We didn't get any explanation why they would choose to slaughter dozens of harmless innocents. LSH might be an explanation, albeit a weak one, because why would she want these people killed when there are Freys out there that need to be hanged?

I think there is zero chance of LSH.  Berric existing eliminates that I think.  I suspect Thoros of Myr figured it out through the flames.  If we need a practical answer, maybe they ran into some baratheons or intercepted a Raven that talked about it.

 

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9 minutes ago, TickTak7 said:

Oh yeah, nice catch. I missed that one. 

Yep. 

Very curious to know HOW the Brotherhood would know about the White Walkers, as I'm not really sure there's a plausible explanation for that - if they knew, wouldn't most of Westeros therefore know? Rendering all these other conflicts meaningless?

iirc, most of westeros have been laughing off reports of what's going on up north.  they have also been involved in their own conflicts.  

i would assume the bwb knows the same way everyone else would know.  ravens and the gossip mill.  they stop in towns and villages and get the news.  

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3 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

iirc, most of westeros have been laughing off reports of what's going on up north.  they have also been involved in their own conflicts.  

i would assume the bwb knows the same way everyone else would know.  ravens and the gossip mill.  they stop in towns and villages and get the news.  

Would a roaming band of ragtags be able to receive ravens from the wall highlighting the threat of the White Walkers? 

I'm not so sure. 

It's a decent theory / explanation. 

You are right regarding everyone laughing off reports though. 

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Just now, TickTak7 said:

Would a roaming band of ragtags be able to receive ravens from the wall highlighting the threat of the White Walkers? 

I'm not so sure. 

It's a decent theory / explanation. 

You are right regarding everyone laughing off reports though. 

they wouldn't need to literally receive the ravens.  the ravens are sent out to wherever, and from wherever the news spreads to the castle, to the town, to the roadways, to other villages.  

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Thoros of Myr is a Red Priest, and they seem to be well informed about what's going on in the North, whether through mundane or magical means.

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17 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said:

they wouldn't need to literally receive the ravens.  the ravens are sent out to wherever, and from wherever the news spreads to the castle, to the town, to the roadways, to other villages.  

Acknowledged. 

Which is why I think it's bizarre that they know about the White Walkers. 

 

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17 hours ago, Lightice said:

Thoros of Myr is a Red Priest, and they seem to be well informed about what's going on in the North, whether through mundane or magical means.

This, Mel definitely seemed to know about the Great Other and the WW in the North. I think she may have even used the same phrase "The Cold Winds are Rising," but I could be wrong about that.

The red priests in Meeren were even hinting at the great war to come, etc etc.

If all the other red priests knew, I would think Thoros would know too.

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18 minutes ago, TickTak7 said:

Acknowledged. 

Which is why I think it's bizarre that they know about the White Walkers. 

 

If you understand how information is shared and spread, what exactly is your confusion?  It seems fairly simple.  The Wall sends ravens (or Aliser Thorne who journeyed to KL and would have been sharing information along the way with that crazy moving zombie hand he had with him), ravens arrive at castles, raven notes are read, news from the note is shared, people move around sharing as they go, eventually it reaches the BwB.  This along with Thoros' ability to read flames makes this seem quite obvious.  

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5 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

If you understand how information is shared and spread, what exactly is your confusion?  It seems fairly simple.  The Wall sends ravens (or Aliser Thorne who journeyed to KL and would have been sharing information along the way with that crazy moving zombie hand he had with him), ravens arrive at castles, raven notes are read, news from the note is shared, people move around sharing as they go, eventually it reaches the BwB.  This along with Thoros' ability to read flames makes this seem quite obvious.  

Yeah, I actually really like this addition here. Shows that the BwB has their ears a little closer to the ground then the high lords do. Also, I assume they are in the Riverlands just south of the twins, so it's showing the news of the WE is slowly trickling south, with people who are actually buying the concern.

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31 minutes ago, The Dames do Moan said:

Yeah, I actually really like this addition here. Shows that the BwB has their ears a little closer to the ground then the high lords do. Also, I assume they are in the Riverlands just south of the twins, so it's showing the news of the WE is slowly trickling south, with people who are actually buying the concern.

I don't think it's that they have their ears closer to the ground than others, but that they have cause and ability to react differently to certain news.  Every time we've met up with the BwB, we've seen that they have the same basic info and news the high lords and other top officials have.  The whole kingdom already knows what's happening up north, or at least they've received messages that something strange is going on.  It would be odd if the BwB weren't also aware of some of the major news from the Wall.

Where the lords are beholden to their king(s), to their lands and castles, to their vassals and peasants, the BwB is just beholden to itself and whatever they decide is for the good of justice and for humanity.  The barriers Lord Poopew faces in answering a call for aid at the Wall are so significant that it's easier for him to laugh off the threat, especially when that threat is a mythical one that has existed only in children's stories for the last 8,000 years.  The Brotherhood does not have those barriers and so can take action on things much easier.  Plus, the BwB has every reason to believe in the existence of this mythical creature considering how much magic plays a part in their daily lives.  

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The problem though is that I think you might be merging the books with the show a little bit too much. On the show, we have only seen the BWB when we needed to know that Beric was reincarnated and for Arya to join paths with the Hound. In the books, we know they play a much larger role which is always to protect the people from their rulers until they are "sabotaged" by LSH.

With regard to Aliser Thorne, we know his path in the book alters quite a bit from the show. On the show, why would we assume that after he murdered Jon, and while he waited to get into the room and take Jon's body that he also decided that he needed to send out ravens to everyone and warn them of the WWs? His main priority during that time frame was to get Jon's body out without an open civil war between the NW in front of the Wildlings because handling Jon's corpse was the only way he could hope to quell the resistance in the NW against him and move on.  I could accept that he would send ravens in an attempt to raise men for the NW in order to defend against 1) the Wildlings and 2) the WWs, but I don't see him doing that until AFTER he secures Jon's body. So, I don't think the NW sent our ravens under Aliser Thorne. Also, Thorne has never really dealt with the WWs on the show, and never really believed what Jon or anyone else has told him. His only witnesses are Jon and Jon's NW allies from the battle at Hardhome and the Wildlings. While I don't think that he believed they weren't real, I do think that he never understood how dangerous they really were.

 I'm pretty sure the BWB is getting it's new mission from Thoros. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Beric actually said at some point that Thoros has seen what's happening in the flames. At this point in time the BWB has very little of a mission left. Jaime marched the King's army to Riverrun without any intention of causing fear, unlike the tactics employed by his father. At this point the skirmishes between the North and South have long since ended with the death of Robb, and the BWB is not a group of river lands soldiers anyway, they are Without Banners, so why stick around just to fight the Freys in a story that exists without LSH? If the Freys left the small folk alone for the most part, then there wouldn't really be a lot left for the BWB to do other than go home to their families or find something else to do, unless they intended a full scale rebellion against "evil" lords like the Freys or the Boltons. At the end of the day, the BWB are soldiers, who seem to be mostly decent people at heart and became disillusioned with their military service because it often meant harming other people. With no one left to protect, they to me, are doing what any old soldier does when he/she can't retire, they are looking for a new enemy to fight and new people to protect. I imagine many of them come to believe that fighting the WWs is the only way left to redeem themselves for all the horrors they committed as soldiers. I expect this is the same motive that will be used in the books after LSH is dealt with. We can easily imagine Septon Maribald joining them and working side by side with Thoros to lead the BWB north, and the Hound a likely follower, though I also wouldn't be surprised if Book Jaime is strongly compelled by these men as well. 

 Sorry if this is the wrong thread for this -but do you all think that the way we were introduced to the Hound, and to the BWB and their new intentions in the show means that we are going to get Hound POV chapters in WOW??!?? 

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I don't use the books to inform about the show nor do I use the show to inform about the books.  I may misremember scenes here and there, but I have no problems keeping the two separate.

Alliser Thorne was sent to King's Landing with a zombie hand in a jar.  This happened in season one.  This is what I'm talking about when I mention that Alliser Throne traveled south and while doing so, spread information about what was going on at the wall.  Further, it's perfectly clear that the Wall has been sending ravens out since the start.  

The BwB has had the ability to be learning info since they were commissioned.  We've seen that they know things regardless if we've only seen them a few times on the show.

I mean, this is probably one of the few things that is completely self-explanatory.  Information spreads easily.  This group uses magic.  One of the members sees visions.  When they pick up during their travels starts also providing context to visions, no one should be at all surprised when they react differently than the other people in Westeros.  No one should be surprised that they know what's going on because it's already a given that people know what's going on.  

I'm gonna leave it at that because I've now spent way too many minutes discussing something simple for an episode that was one of the show's worst.  

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4 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said:

If you understand how information is shared and spread, what exactly is your confusion?  It seems fairly simple.  The Wall sends ravens (or Aliser Thorne who journeyed to KL and would have been sharing information along the way with that crazy moving zombie hand he had with him), ravens arrive at castles, raven notes are read, news from the note is shared, people move around sharing as they go, eventually it reaches the BwB.  This along with Thoros' ability to read flames makes this seem quite obvious.  

Because it's based on the assumption that the Brotherhood has their ears on the pulse of the world, which as a ragtag group of robin-hoods that constantly are on the go, doesn't really fit right. 

We've not been given any indication that the Brotherhood operates in this way. 

The Thoros / flames explanation is somewhat more plausible, but if Thoros is able to see that specifically ahead, then if I'm The Hound I'm stopping to ask him what happens in seasons 6 and 7 as well. That's very specific . 

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