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What if Domeric Bolton lived?


Oakhearts head

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Kind of a hard to do a "What if?" scenario when we know so little about the character in question, but here it goes...

For those unaware, Domeric Bolton was the deceased son of Roose Bolton, apparently murdered by Ramsay Snow roughly two years prior to AGOT. We know remarkably little about Domeric, however in Dance we're given this monologue from Roose :
 

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Domeric. A quiet boy, but most accomplished. He served four years as Lady Dustin’s page, and three in the Vale as a squire to Lord Redfort. He played the high harp, read histories, and rode like the wind. Horses … the boy was mad for horses, Lady Dustin will tell you. Not even Lord Rickard’s daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself. Redfort said he showed great promise in the lists. A great jouster must be a great horseman first.


So, if we're able to trust the word of Roose in this instance, his true born son was by most accounts a genuine, honorable guy.

What if Domeric was still alive during the first book? For this hypothetical, let's say both Roose and Ramsay are dead when Robb Stark calls the banners and Domeric is the Lord of the Dreadfort at the time. Would having a Bolton who is genuine to Robb's cause significantly change things for the Northerners? How?

I know we know remarkably little about the character in question, but I think it is an interesting hypothetical. What do you guys think?

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Well I do think that we can trust Roose's words that Domeric was quiet, musical and accomplished. However, notice that Roose never calls him "honourable".

Remember that Roose's personal motto is "a quiet land, a quiet people" but that doesn't stop him from privately indulging in his cruelties. What Roose dislikes about Ramsay is that Ramsay is unrefined, extravagant, obvious and wasteful in his perversions, not that he has them.

For all we know Domeric was simply closer to Roose in character, but still a Bolton at heart....

And I agree that Roose might have tried for a match between Domeric and Sansa. Not sure if Ned would have agreed. Or if Domeric would have been a better husband than Joffrey... I do believe Sansa would have been infatuated with him in the beginning, in any case.

 

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2 hours ago, Oakhearts head said:

I know we know remarkably little about the character in question, but I think it is an interesting hypothetical. What do you guys think?

We would have a completely different. So much of the story involves Ramsey and his actions it would be impossible to remove him without changing everything 

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Would Stannis or Robb take KL? And when is Tywin's head ending up on a pike? Would Jon Snow or Theon Greyjoy be elected Lord Commander of the NW?

 

Those are the questions. Roose and Ramsay are (directly or indirectly) responsible for about 99% of the northern (non-NW) and central Westerosi storyline since late Game. All of it to the detriment of the Starks. Without them, all of it would have to be revised into a positive direction.

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If Domeric was so much like Roose, I think a lot of the story could have stayed the same. The Boltons could still make a power grab with the Freys and the Lannisters, still murder Robb and his men. Hell, things probably would have worked out better with Roose's walking PR nightmare of a bastard replaced by a mini-Roose. 

Theon probably would have just been executed at Winterfell without Ramsay's torture fetish. Or the Nights Watch like BBE suggested if Domeric was merciful (but I don't see that if he's supposed to be a chip off the ol Bolton block.)

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19 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

If Domeric was so much like Roose, I think a lot of the story could have stayed the same. The Boltons could still make a power grab with the Freys and the Lannisters, still murder Robb and his men. Hell, things probably would have worked out better with Roose's walking PR nightmare of a bastard replaced by a mini-Roose. 

Theon probably would have just been executed at Winterfell without Ramsay's torture fetish. Or the Nights Watch like BBE suggested if Domeric was merciful (but I don't see that if he's supposed to be a chip off the ol Bolton block.)

Exactly, the only thing that would be changed is that the Boltons would be less vulnerable with Domeric instead of Ramsay. Though...Domeric can't at the same time march with Robb, be there to infiltrate Winterfell, marry Fat Walda and have a marriage with Fake Arya, so clearly some things would have fallen through with only Lord Domeric Bolton present. Makes me wonder if he had not been married by the time of the Wot5K..again I can't see Ned marrying his daughter to a Bolton, but maybe some other noble lady.

The only way I can see Domeric not being married at the time of the WoT5K was if Roose only died very shortly before it started and was holding out for a Stark or Karstark betrothal.

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1 hour ago, Lord Vance II said:

If Domeric was so much like Roose, I think a lot of the story could have stayed the same. The Boltons could still make a power grab with the Freys and the Lannisters, still murder Robb and his men. Hell, things probably would have worked out better with Roose's walking PR nightmare of a bastard replaced by a mini-Roose. 

Theon probably would have just been executed at Winterfell without Ramsay's torture fetish. Or the Nights Watch like BBE suggested if Domeric was merciful (but I don't see that if he's supposed to be a chip off the ol Bolton block.)

Theon would never murder "Bran" and "Rickon" while in Winterfell. He did that due to Ramsay's urging. Nor would Domeric attack Ser Rodrick Cassel.

Therefore, Ser Rodrick and Domeric would relieve Deepwood Motte, maybe taking Asha prisoner on top of Theon. And utterly humiliating Balon, regardless of Asha.

While Bran sends reinforcements south as Robb requires them.

And Robett Glover (or whomever Robb put in command of his eastern host) would align the BWB with the Northmen/Riverlords instead of forcing a confrontation, pressing Tywin hard, maybe trapping him against Edmure after Stonemill.

No emotional breakdown at the Crag for Robb either.

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It's a hard question to answer.  If Domeric had survived, Ramsay would have killed him.  The only scenario where Domeric survives that is impactful is if Ramsay is either dead, or kept far away from the Boltons.
In that scenario, Domeric would probably be with the Stark army rather than hanging out at the Dreadfort.  Without Ramsay, Theon's Winterfell occupation changes.  Does he still come up with the idea for the fake Bran and Rickon?  Or does he have to admit that they are missing?  Without the dead Starks, does he get better terms from Roderick Cassel?  If the castle is retaken, Bran probably doesn't go North (Rickon definitely stays).  Does that kind of mess up the whole plan to defeat the Others?  Does that mean Bloodraven doesn't send Coldhands to save Sam and Gilly?

 With less tragedy, does Robb still screw up his marriage contract?  Does Roose still decide to switch to team Lannister, and does that depend on whether Domeric is with him, or with Robb?

In conclusion, Ramsay is a terrible person who made everything suck for lots of people, but was probably a necessary evil in some ways.

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Domeric was not a mini Roose. He got poisoned - something that Roose would be way, way to cautious to allow to happen to himself. Domeric rode off to befriend his bastard half-brother despite warnings - something that Roose wouldn't do as well. In retrospect that guy seems almost Starkish.

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Nothing would change. Roose would ride to battle with Robb, Robb would still mess up, Roose would jump ship and the red wedding would still occur. Roose did what was best to his house. When the war was lost he got himself in the King's good books and for that effort he was awarded the Lord Paramount of the North title. That's something Robb could never give him. 

Actually one thing would have probably changed. Instead of asking for Ramsey's legitimisation, Roose would probably demand the king, Sansa Stark. He would marry her to Domeric and therefore consolidate the Bolton's power over the North. Roose would still marry a Frey which would keep old Walder happy while Ramsey would probably get some ugly Frey girl to marry

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If you had not added the stipulation that both Roose and Ramsay were dead when Wo5K broke out, I would say Domeric would have died in the war, since that is what happened to almost if not every single Northern heir who went south (Ramsay was able to stay in the north because he was not Roose's recognized heir at the time). 

Had Domeric lived, and had he been a decent person and not a sick, twisted fuck, he could have been invaluable to Robb with his connections to the Vale, but whether that would have been enough to convince to Lords of the Vale to disobey Lysa and join Robb is hard to say. Based on the comparisons to Lyanna, I would say Domeric was at least 10-15 years older than Robb, so he might not have had the same seniority in Robb's army as Roose, so someone else likely would have stayed at the Twins to keep the Freys in line, and perhaps they would have remained loyal to Robb. So, hypothetically, things could have been dramatically improved for Robb. 

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7 minutes ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

Based on the comparisons to Lyanna, I would say Domeric was at least 10-15 years older than Robb

I never got that impression.  I assumed he was much closer in age to Robb.  Maybe a few years older, but not that much.

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Things would have been better for Robb, for a while, but a living Domeric does in no way make either Stannis defeat Tywin and Mace or counter the overwhelming power that the Reach and West will bring to bear after the Blackwater. At "worst" Domeric and Roose will be two more corpses at the Twins and at "best" the war will go on for a year or so before the separatists are defeated.

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1) Domeric would have been at the battle of the red fork in AGoT, and likely killed or captured Tyrion. (Remember that Tyrion only lived because his mounted opponent was an impulsive poor rider) 

2) Domeric would have made a good match for Lady Hornwood.

3) I doubt Domeric would have been able to take Harrenhal the way Roose did. Meaning he'd have either actually fought the Mummers, or joined up with Edmure? I'm not sure what he would do, but I think the deal with Hoat was a veteran's move. 

4) Theon never would have thought of the fake children gambit on his own. 

That's with Domeric taking both Roose and Ramsay's places. It really throws the whole series into chaos. I think it could even be enough to make Stannis king (though it far from guarantees it). There's much less chaos if Domeric simply replaces Ramsay. In that case, I think he marries lady Hornwood peaceably, and they "swear to find" the stark children, whose realm they are "safekeeping." This probably would make things much harder for the Rickonite faction, because fewer people would hate the Boltons.

 

Compared to Ramsay, a wolf in a child's skin raised by cannibals seems like a savior. Compared to Domeric, though? 

 

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7 minutes ago, CJ McLannister said:

I never got that impression.  I assumed he was much closer in age to Robb.  Maybe a few years older, but not that much.

Eh, you may be right. According to the wiki Domeric died not too long before the books started, and he most likely was not in his late 20s/early 30s when he died. The phrasing of Roose's description reads (to me) as though Lyanna and Domeric were contemporaries though - "could outrace" implies (again, to me) a direct comparison was possible. Also, Roose is a bit older than Ned, I think he was closer to Rickard in age than Ned (especially with his talk of not living to see Walda's child reach majority age), so it would make sense if his son was also older.  Ramsay's age is unknown, as far as I remember, but I would place him as at least Theon's age if not older, and Theon was older than Robb, and I believe Domeric was older than Ramsay...? 

If Domeric was closer to Robb's age, then he would be even more likely (in my opinion) to die fighting in Wo5K, as he likely would have been fighting as one of Robb's guards. He also would likely have held less sway in the Vale...

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6 hours ago, Lord Vance II said:

If Domeric was so much like Roose, I think a lot of the story could have stayed the same. The Boltons could still make a power grab with the Freys and the Lannisters, still murder Robb and his men. Hell, things probably would have worked out better with Roose's walking PR nightmare of a bastard replaced by a mini-Roose. 

Theon probably would have just been executed at Winterfell without Ramsay's torture fetish. Or the Nights Watch like BBE suggested if Domeric was merciful (but I don't see that if he's supposed to be a chip off the ol Bolton block.)

I agree, killing Robb was "just business, nothing personal" to Roose, I can see why Domeric would not do the same thing under the same circunstance, as a Bolton, he must have the interest of his house at top priority, and executing Theon after the sacking of Winterfell would be a great idea, that would make Boltons hero among many northern houses

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5 hours ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Theon would never murder "Bran" and "Rickon" while in Winterfell. He did that due to Ramsay's urging.

 

Killing "Bran" and "Rickon" was actually the only choice Theon had at that time, he could not afford letting people know Bran and Rickon had escaped, and do not forget we are talking about Medieval period, in which "Bran" and "Rickon" were merely sons of some smallfolk, their lives did not worth much in the eyes of great Lords, what Theon did would hardly consider a war crime

 

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4 hours ago, CJ McLannister said:

With less tragedy, does Robb still screw up his marriage contract?  Does Roose still decide to switch to team Lannister, and does that depend on whether Domeric is with him, or with Robb?

Of course Domeric would be with Roose, Roose is still his Lord father, you always stand with your own house

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