What if Domeric Bolton lived?

[Sourjapes]

On 6/16/2016 at 1:33 PM, Orphalesion said:

I'm not quite sure I see it the same way. It can be interpreted like that, absolutely.

But it could also be seen as him just wanting company after he returned from the Vale, i.e. "Man I had fun in the Vale with those Redfort guys. I wish I had a brother so I could have just as much fun around here. Wait...doesn't my father have some low-born bastard? Great, I'm gonna get him here so that I have someone to amuse me!"

Roose says Domeric was quiet, and to me that implies he was an introvert. He was also very well read, so I gather he was not the partying sort. Mind you, we know little about him so ultimately I think Domeric's nature is up in the air. However his desire to connect with his brother and the fondness Lady Dustin had for him, suggest to me that he was a good-hearted person. It's not concrete, but it's a reasonable conclusion, I think.

If Domeric sounds like he doesn't really "fit" with House Bolton, then I would remind everyone that plenty of historical Starks have been bad people. If Kevan and Tywin can be different then so can any two Boltons.

 

As for the question in the OP... I think the question is a lot more interesting if we just ask how things would be different if Domeric was alive at the start of the War of Five Kings, but everything else was the same. Personally, I imagine Roose would keep Domeric at the Dreadfort. Unlike other lords Roose would be too careful and would not risk losing both himself and his heir in war. Look at the Hornwoods. So assuredly means Domeric is the Castellan.

IF we assume him to be a decent man then he probably doesn't start anything with Lady Hornwood. Though, that is where things get interesting. Might Ramsay go and abduct and marry her anyway? What happens then? Does Domeric assist Cassel and try to hunt down his own half-brother or does he try to protect him?

With Roose in the south, with no other children, is this the perfect time for Ramsay to assassinate Domeric and usurp his place?

 

 

 

Now, another question, how different is the post-war situation in the North? Most likely Roose marries Domeric to "Arya Stark". Now a good portion of the resistance Roose faces in the North is because of Ramsay acts and most importantly, his status as heir when Roose dies. Nobody, NOBODY, wants Ramsay for their liege. However I gather from a comment one of the Umbers makes that many in the North would actually be okay with Roose as LP if not for Ramsay. If nothing else, they feel secure in treating with Roose diplomatically. I think then that if Roose had an heir that many lords could also like that they'd feel even more okay with the new Bolton regime.

 

Mind you, that doesn't mean that many of them wouldn't still scheme to put the Starks back in power. Assuming they succeeded I can see Ramsay being executed, Roose likely executed as well but maybe sent to the Wall instead, and Domeric forced to forfeit Winterfell, acknowledge "Arya Stark's" true idenity, and then left alone to rule in the Dreadfort.

[Eden-Mackenzie]

1 hour ago, TheSovereignGrave said:

I'm not sure that would've worked, since if I recall correctly Domeric didn't just seek out Ramsay because he just wanted a friend or company. Domeric sought out Ramsay because his time with Lord Redfort's sons left him wanting an actual brother of his own.

Oh, I agree, you're most likely right it wouldn't have mattered, but I still think Roose could have tried. Especially considering how many Northern lords had sons roughly the same age Domeric appears to have been.   

[marsyao]

9 hours ago, Ser Joe of Generic Hall said:

I believe you mean his wife, Bethany. Roose may not have known, at first, but it is feasible that he learned it as he watched the child grow. Robert mistook children, who clearly were not his, for his own and didn't even notice because he was drunk all the time ... or didn't care. However, everyone with observant eyes can tell that Edric Storm and Gendry are Robert's and Joffrey is not. 

How? There is no evidence that Bethany had an affair with Brandon Stark

[marsyao]

9 hours ago, Kaibaman said:

The way I see it, if Domeric had lived he might have marched south with his father because being more stable and reliable than his bastard brother would have made Roose more willing to bring him along. If that did happen then he most likely would have ended up as one of Robb's elite bodyguards just like the other sons of Northern lords. In that case if he didn't get cut down at the Whispering Woods, he would have made a very valuable hostage and maybe kept Roose's behavior in check. I for one doubt Roose would have attempted something like the Red Wedding if Robb had his son by his side, especially if Domeric became very loyal to Robb which he very well might have.

Keep an adult son and heir of a great noble house as bodyguard/honorable hostage? unlikely, that would be an unecessary insult and in the war the heir of a noble house would usually with their Lord father, and even Domeric was with Robb, he would still be safe in the red wedding based on how Freys and Bolton planed it, and do not forget this is a medieval world, so the first of Domeric's loyality would be his house and his Lord father

[Danelle]

If Domeric had lived, he would have followed Robb Stark in his quest to aid his father and sisters.

Perhaps his quiet demeanor and accomplishments while at the Vale, would have earned him a reputation in the Riverlands, and several lords, including Walder Frey, would have suggested a betrothal to their daughters.

Since he was young and eager to fight, he would probably be along with Robb at Whispering Wood and almost certainly would have died when they attacked Ser Jaime Lannister. 

[marsyao]

10 hours ago, TheSovereignGrave said:

I'm not sure that would've worked, since if I recall correctly Domeric didn't just seek out Ramsay because he just wanted a friend or company. Domeric sought out Ramsay because his time with Lord Redfort's sons left him wanting an actual brother of his own.

I would say the feeling Domeric toward Ramsay was not much different Robb's feeling toward Jon Snow, he was just not as lucky as Robb

[The Wolves]

1 hour ago, marsyao said:

I would say the feeling Domeric toward Ramsay was not much different Robb's feeling toward Jon Snow, he was just not as lucky as Robb

I would say there is a difference between what Domeric felt towards Ramsey to what Robb feels towards Jon. 

 

Robb and Jon actually grew up together as brothers so they already have a bond and relationship. They're probably each other's best friends just because they constantly was always together and they're the same age. 

Domeric and Roose didn't know each other at all and we don't know how much time they spent together before he died nor do we know how Domeric felt when he finally saw Ramsey, and got to know him. He probably thought it was a bad idea after meeting him. 

[Kaibaman]

12 hours ago, marsyao said:

Keep an adult son and heir of a great noble house as bodyguard/honorable hostage? unlikely, that would be an unecessary insult and in the war the heir of a noble house would usually with their Lord father, and even Domeric was with Robb, he would still be safe in the red wedding based on how Freys and Bolton planed it, and do not forget this is a medieval world, so the first of Domeric's loyality would be his house and his Lord father

Well it seems like a Northern tradition for the sons of lords to become part of their leigh lord's elite bodyguard unit, at least when it comes to the Starks. I really don't see how it can be considered an insult seeing how the Hornwoods, Manderlys, Mormonts, Karstarks and Umbers all sent their grownup heirs to guard Robb on this campaign. Also maybe Domeric may have went along with it if his dad still went through with the Red Wedding. However given the way Roose describes him, I don't think he would have been as willing to breach guest rights especially if he bonded with Robb and became devoted to him like the others did.

[marsyao]

1 hour ago, Kaibaman said:

Also maybe Domeric may have went along with it if his dad still went through with the Red Wedding. However given the way Roose describes him, I don't think he would have been as willing to breach guest rights especially if he bonded with Robb and became devoted to him like the others did.

Don't forget Roose broke no guest right, Freys did

[CJ McLannister]

11 hours ago, marsyao said:

Don't forget Roose broke no guest right, Freys did

I don't think guests are supposed to stab each other either.  Or are you supposed to follow the host's lead on that?

[marsyao]

1 hour ago, CJ McLannister said:

I don't think guests are supposed to stab each other either.  Or are you supposed to follow the host's lead on that?

Guests stabbing each other does not equal to violate guest right, Roose did not just follow host's lead, he did for a purpose, like mafia bosses used to say it is all about business, nothing personal. That was something other great Lords would do under similiar circunstance, it was something you may not agree, but at least you would understand

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

I think it could have been either. We know too little. Domeric could have been a chip off the old block, and helped his father. He could have died in the Riverlands. Or he could have helped execute the Red Wedding. He could have been more likable than Ramsay, bringing more loyalty to House Bolton. Or, on the other hand, Domeric could have been a seemingly normal guy. He could have fought normally and followed Robb in whatever he did. I think Roose being dead is a far more extreme difference in the storyline than Domeric being alive however. If Roose is dead, I doubt Domeric is the person put in charge of the other half of Robb's army which changes everything. It means the red wedding may not have happened. Since I think Roose was obviously getting rid of northerners after he took harrenhall, it could have changed the people captured in Maidenpool or Darry. Would the replacement take Harrenhall? What about Arya's move? Would it have still happened? Who replaces Roose is also a question? Robbet or Galbart Glover, Greatjon Umber, Rickard or Harrion Karstark, Helmann Tallhart, Maege Mormont? There are, just, so many options. Roose being dead certainly could change a lot, but I think most likely Domeric being alive would not change much in and of itself. 

[Orphalesion]

On 23/06/2016 at 5:56 AM, Sourjapes said:

Roose says Domeric was quiet, and to me that implies he was an introvert. He was also very well read, so I gather he was not the partying sort. Mind you, we know little about him so ultimately I think Domeric's nature is up in the air. However his desire to connect with his brother and the fondness Lady Dustin had for him, suggest to me that he was a good-hearted person. It's not concrete, but it's a reasonable conclusion, I think.

If Domeric sounds like he doesn't really "fit" with House Bolton, then I would remind everyone that plenty of historical Starks have been bad people. If Kevan and Tywin can be different then so can any two Boltons.

Ah no, I don't subscribe to the "One set of character traits per house" fan wank, actually I find it quite disturbing. I just always had the impression that Domeric sounded a bit "too good" to be true and that being "quiet, well read and playing the harp" doesn't mean that a person is automatically good.

I however forgot Lady Dustin's fondness, that is very true. She, unlike Roose would not have positive memories of him if he was discreet yet cruel. 

[John Doe]

The Boltons would safely control the North by now. Ramsay would be dead, or close to it. 

 

 

[John Doe]

1 hour ago, Orphalesion said:

Ah no, I don't subscribe to the "One set of character traits per house" fan wank, actually I find it quite disturbing. I just always had the impression that Domeric sounded a bit "too good" to be true and that being "quiet, well read and playing the harp" doesn't mean that a person is automatically good.

I however forgot Lady Dustin's fondness, that is very true. She, unlike Roose would not have positive memories of him if he was discreet yet cruel. 

And don't forget that we neve hear any criticisms from the Vale either. 

[Sourjapes]

On 6/24/2016 at 10:18 AM, Orphalesion said:

Ah no, I don't subscribe to the "One set of character traits per house" fan wank, actually I find it quite disturbing. I just always had the impression that Domeric sounded a bit "too good" to be true and that being "quiet, well read and playing the harp" doesn't mean that a person is automatically good.

I however forgot Lady Dustin's fondness, that is very true. She, unlike Roose would not have positive memories of him if he was discreet yet cruel. 

I agree that being quiet, well read, and liking horses or playing the harp doesn't say what kind of morals a person has. For me the most compelling evidence that Domeric might have been a caring soul is his desire to seek out his half-brother. Like I said that isn't proof, but it's a reasonable indication of a good heart. I mean can you imagine Ramsay or Joffery or some other nasty person having that same desire? Perhaps you can, but it seems like it would be uncommon among violent, cruel, selfish types. Wanting to find your lost half-sibling and have them at your side sounds more like Robb Stark or Jon Snow than it does Ramsay or Joff.

 

Of-course for all we know Domeric could have been a decent person with a love of family, but ruthless in war or have practiced harsh justice or vengeance if given the chance. We just don't know. We know so little about him. I hope that Lady Dustin or Lord Redfort speak about him some more in Winds.

[WSmith84]

Well, Ramsey was only brought to the Dreadfort because Roose had no other sons. If Domeric was still alive, Ramsey wouldn't (presumably) have been getting himself a reputation and thus wouldn't have been captured by Rodrick and brought to Winterfell. So, Theon presumably doesn't get the idea of faking Bran and Rickon's deaths (and he'd never have the balls to kill his own men by himself to cover it up) so Robb might not have shagged Jeyne. Rodrick would take back Winterfell, as there would be no Ramsey sneaking away and returning with a Bolton army. So Robb would take back his castle and the North would be in much better shape to oust the Ironborn invaders. The Red Wedding might not have happened (although I'd wager that the Freys and Boltons would probably be prepared to betray Robb anyway, though in a less brutal fashion) and, all in all, Robb's cause would be much better off.

[Martin Lasarte]

The most interesting scenario is one in which Ramsay is either dead or never acknowledged, but Domeric and Roose are alive by the time the war begins. Either Domeric's positive influence over his father prevents him from betraying Robb, or Roose betrays him anyway and Domeric has to reluctantly aid him in his plans. We should remember that Ramsay played no part in Roose's decision to betray Robb; he did it because: a) Theon took Winterfell, b ) the Lannister/Tyrell alliance defeated Stannis and c) Robb broke his promise to marry a Frey girl.

[John Doe]

I'd imagine Roose would keep his son in the Vale for the duration of the entire war so that he doesn't meddle with his plans. Only after he returned North he would have sent for him.

[Angel Eyes]

On 6/16/2016 at 8:52 AM, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Theon would never murder "Bran" and "Rickon" while in Winterfell. He did that due to Ramsay's urging. Nor would Domeric attack Ser Rodrick Cassel.

Therefore, Ser Rodrick and Domeric would relieve Deepwood Motte, maybe taking Asha prisoner on top of Theon. And utterly humiliating Balon, regardless of Asha.

While Bran sends reinforcements south as Robb requires them.

And Robett Glover (or whomever Robb put in command of his eastern host) would align the BWB with the Northmen/Riverlords instead of forcing a confrontation, pressing Tywin hard, maybe trapping him against Edmure after Stonemill.

No emotional breakdown at the Crag for Robb either.

Would he send Theon to Robb to lose his head?