What if Domeric Bolton lived?

[CJ McLannister]

1 minute ago, marsyao said:

Of course Domeric would be with Roose, Roose is still his Lord father, you always stand with your own house

I was talking in terms of geography, not allegiance.  

[Bright Blue Eyes]

2 hours ago, marsyao said:

 

Killing "Bran" and "Rickon" was actually the only choice Theon had at that time, he could not afford letting people know Bran and Rickon had escaped, and do not forget we are talking about Medieval period, in which "Bran" and "Rickon" were merely sons of some smallfolk, their lives did not worth much in the eyes of great Lords, what Theon did would hardly consider a war crime

 

Not disputing that per se - but Theon wouldn't even think that choice up.

[Orphalesion]

6 hours ago, Tianzi said:

Domeric was not a mini Roose. He got poisoned - something that Roose would be way, way to cautious to allow to happen to himself. Domeric rode off to befriend his bastard half-brother despite warnings - something that Roose wouldn't do as well. In retrospect that guy seems almost Starkish.

I'm not quite sure I see it the same way. It can be interpreted like that, absolutely.

But it could also be seen as him just wanting company after he returned from the Vale, i.e. "Man I had fun in the Vale with those Redfort guys. I wish I had a brother so I could have just as much fun around here. Wait...doesn't my father have some low-born bastard? Great, I'm gonna get him here so that I have someone to amuse me!"

[MinotaurWarrior]

1 hour ago, Bright Blue Eyes said:

Not disputing that per se - but Theon wouldn't even think that choice up.

Even if he did think of it eventually, he'd never be able to execute on it, because he didn't bring their clothes on the hunt. Ramsay was only able to pull it all together in time because he had just pulled the same trick himself a few weeks prior.  

[The Sleeper]

Domeric was not raised by Roose and the little he tells of him indicates that he was interested in other human beings other than how he could make garments out of them. So there would be considerably less horror.

The pivotal point is the fall of Winterfell with the reported deaths of Bran and Rickon. It is either the direct cause of Starks ills or it compunds them expotentially. There are scenarios in which a Bolton heir could act very similarly ( for instance he takes Winterfell from Theon and Bran and Rickon hostage) or it falls back to Stark hands without fuss.

If Domeric were alive there is every chance he would be south with Roose and Robb and probably as Robb's guard. Then it's a whole different story.

[CJ McLannister]

6 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Domeric was not raised by Roose and the little he tells of him indicates that he was interested in other human beings other than how he could make garments out of them. So there would be considerably less horror.

The pivotal point is the fall of Winterfell with the reported deaths of Bran and Rickon. It is either the direct cause of Starks ills or it compunds them expotentially. There are scenarios in which a Bolton heir could act very similarly ( for instance he takes Winterfell from Theon and Bran and Rickon hostage) or it falls back to Stark hands without fuss.

If Domeric were alive there is every chance he would be south with Roose and Robb and probably as Robb's guard. Then it's a whole different story.

If Bran is not thought to be dead, he never gets north of the wall.  That might have huge consequences.

[golden_eyes]

On 6/16/2016 at 0:50 AM, Orphalesion said:

Well I do think that we can trust Roose's words that Domeric was quiet, musical and accomplished. However, notice that Roose never calls him "honourable".

Remember that Roose's personal motto is "a quiet land, a quiet people" but that doesn't stop him from privately indulging in his cruelties. What Roose dislikes about Ramsay is that Ramsay is unrefined, extravagant, obvious and wasteful in his perversions, not that he has them.

For all we know Domeric was simply closer to Roose in character, but still a Bolton at heart....

And I agree that Roose might have tried for a match between Domeric and Sansa. Not sure if Ned would have agreed. Or if Domeric would have been a better husband than Joffrey... I do believe Sansa would have been infatuated with him in the beginning, in any case.

 

I have to argue that Domeric was nothing like Roose because he disobeyed his father and was so excited at the thought of having a brother, and was naive enough to not be weary of Ramsay and instead saved to ne his friend.

[Eden-Mackenzie]

1 hour ago, golden_eyes said:

I have to argue that Domeric was nothing like Roose because he disobeyed his father and was so excited at the thought of having a brother, and was naive enough to not be weary of Ramsay and instead saved to ne his friend.

But, had he not "befriended" Ramsay, Domeric would have spent the years leading up to the war under Roose's tutelage, learning how to be Lord of the Dreadfort. Roose is nothing if not pragmatic (and cruel, but for the most part he keeps his cruelty well-hidden), and I would imagine that a few years under Roose would eliminate at least some of Domeric's naïveté. 

I do have to wonder at Roose's reaction to Domeric's wanting a relationship with Ramsay though. Rather than just discouraging/forbidding their meeting, if Roose had presented an alternative, such as encouraging him to form relationships with other lords' sons, Domeric may have lived... Roose could have even provided him with "friends", like he did with Ramsay and the Bastard's Boys. 

[marsyao]

41 minutes ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

But, had he not "befriended" Ramsay, Domeric would have spent the years leading up to the war under Roose's tutelage, learning how to be Lord of the Dreadfort. Roose is nothing if not pragmatic (and cruel, but for the most part he keeps his cruelty well-hidden), and I would imagine that a few years under Roose would eliminate at least some of Domeric's naïveté. 

I would not say Roose anymore cruel than other great Lords such as Tywin or Stannis, because that part of his life was rarely mentioned in the book except the way he dealt with Ramsay's mother, but even that he did with certain restraint, not beyond what other Lords may do to their subjects, my personaly believe is that the only thing Roose enjoy is power not other people's suffering.

44 minutes ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

I do have to wonder at Roose's reaction to Domeric's wanting a relationship with Ramsay though. Rather than just discouraging/forbidding their meeting, if Roose had presented an alternative, such as encouraging him to form relationships with other lords' sons, Domeric may have lived... Roose could have even provided him with "friends", like he did with Ramsay and the Bastard's Boys. 

I guess Roose had a soft spot in his heart toward Domeric, like any father would do toward a good son

[joluoto2]

If Roose had a sane heir he'd be in a better position.

[Eden-Mackenzie]

1 hour ago, marsyao said:

I would not say Roose anymore cruel than other great Lords such as Tywin or Stannis, because that part of his life was rarely mentioned in the book except the way he dealt with Ramsay's mother, but even that he did with certain restraint, not beyond what other Lords may do to their subjects, my personaly believe is that the only thing Roose enjoy is power not other people's suffering.

He murdered a peasant and then raped his wife simply because the man had had the audacity to get married without letting Roose have sex with the bride to be first. Later he ripped out the tongue of the brother of the dead man to keep him from tattling to his lord. 

Ramsay's exploits with girls and his dogs were known, to Roose and others in the North, Lady Hornwood had heard of them before their "wedding", yet rather than put an end to it, Roose told Ramsay to be more discreet. 

Roose played a role in the planning and execution of the Red Wedding, and before that he sent men whose loyalty to Robb was strongest on a ridiculous mission to Duskendale, with the sole purpose of getting them captured or killed so they would be unable to help Robb retake the North. 

Being no more cruel than Tywin does not make Roose un-cruel. 

[marsyao]

1 hour ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

He murdered a peasant and then raped his wife simply because the man had had the audacity to get married without letting Roose have sex with the bride to be first. Later he ripped out the tongue of the brother of the dead man to keep him from tattling to his lord.

I never say this is not an atrocity, all I was saying, comparing to Ramsay, Roose was not more cruel than other great Lords could be, in this case, he ripped out the tongue of the brother of the dead man to keep him from tattling to his lord when he could simply kill him to the same effect

[Jon Fossoway]

Domeric kind of reminds me of Rhaegar, without the looks and the prestige of being a Targ. 'A quiet boy', maybe a little melancholic, as Rhaegar. A good rider, probably a good swordsman and well read. Too refined for Roose's taste. 

[Ser Joe of Generic Hall]

There is a theory that Domeric is actually Brandon Stark's bastard. Based on the information available, it is plausible. It is known that Brandon had a sexual relationship with, and took the maidenhead of, Domeric's aunt; Barbrey Dustin (nee Ryswell). Then, Domeric is coincidentally sent to be Barbrey Dustin's page. Barbrey curiously talks to Theon about wanting to be a Stark and her interest in Ramsay's involvement in Domeric's death. It is not known whether Brandon was a womanizer, but his nickname was "the wild wolf," which may indicate his interest in women as well as his temperament. Furthermore, Roose's relationship with Bethany wasn't exactly all that spicy, as Roose claims she never made a single sound in bed.  This does not prove that Brandon and Bethany ever were intimate, but there is a lot of suspicious insinuation involved. GRRM describes a very tenuous and intimate set of relationship here involving two of the most bitter rivals in the North.

[marsyao]

8 minutes ago, Ser Joe of Generic Hall said:

There is a theory that Domeric is actually Brandon Stark's bastard. Based on the information available, it is plausible. It is known that Brandon had a sexual relationship with, and took the maidenhead of, Domeric's aunt; Barbrey Dustin (nee Ryswell). Then, Domeric is coincidentally sent to be Barbrey Dustin's page. Barbrey curiously talks to Theon about wanting to be a Stark and her interest in Ramsay's involvement in Domeric's death. It is not known whether Brandon was a womanizer, but his nickname was "the wild wolf," which may indicate his interest in women as well as his temperament. Furthermore, Roose's relationship with Bethany wasn't exactly all that spicy, as Roose claims she never made a single sound in bed.  This does not prove that Brandon and Bethany ever were intimate, but there is a lot of suspicious insinuation involved. GRRM describes a very tenuous and intimate set of relationship here involving two of the most bitter rivals in the North.

 

I highly doubt it, no self respected great Lord, let along Roose Bolton, would recognize a bastard and not even his own bastard as his truebone son and the heir of his house

[Ser Joe of Generic Hall]

57 minutes ago, marsyao said:

I highly doubt it, no self respected great Lord, let along Roose Bolton, would recognize a bastard and not even his own bastard as his truebone son and the heir of his house

 

Robert Baratheon?

[marsyao]

9 minutes ago, Ser Joe of Generic Hall said:

 

Robert Baratheon?

 

He did not know his children are bastards, what does this have anything to do with Roose Bolton? How could Roose Bolton mistake his aunt's batard as his own child?

[Ser Joe of Generic Hall]

4 minutes ago, marsyao said:

He did not know his children are bastards, what does this have anything to do with Roose Bolton? How could Roose Bolton mistake his aunt's batard as his own child?

I believe you mean his wife, Bethany. Roose may not have known, at first, but it is feasible that he learned it as he watched the child grow. Robert mistook children, who clearly were not his, for his own and didn't even notice because he was drunk all the time ... or didn't care. However, everyone with observant eyes can tell that Edric Storm and Gendry are Robert's and Joffrey is not. 

If Domeric survived, Ramsay would seek to overthrow him. Not only is Ramsay a cruel narcissist, but he would use the bastardry rumors as leverage and get those Bolton supporters who supported the old ways of flaying to support his cause. Domeric would not be approved by the denizens of the Dreadfort and would likely be tossed aside quickly.

[TheSovereignGrave]

8 hours ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

I do have to wonder at Roose's reaction to Domeric's wanting a relationship with Ramsay though. Rather than just discouraging/forbidding their meeting, if Roose had presented an alternative, such as encouraging him to form relationships with other lords' sons, Domeric may have lived... Roose could have even provided him with "friends", like he did with Ramsay and the Bastard's Boys. 

I'm not sure that would've worked, since if I recall correctly Domeric didn't just seek out Ramsay because he just wanted a friend or company. Domeric sought out Ramsay because his time with Lord Redfort's sons left him wanting an actual brother of his own.

[Kaibaman]

The way I see it, if Domeric had lived he might have marched south with his father because being more stable and reliable than his bastard brother would have made Roose more willing to bring him along. If that did happen then he most likely would have ended up as one of Robb's elite bodyguards just like the other sons of Northern lords. In that case if he didn't get cut down at the Whispering Woods, he would have made a very valuable hostage and maybe kept Roose's behavior in check. I for one doubt Roose would have attempted something like the Red Wedding if Robb had his son by his side, especially if Domeric became very loyal to Robb which he very well might have.