Careerchat II

[Datepalm]

9 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

Does the invitation say "clothing optional"?  The workshop may be smaller and more interesting than you expect.

I don't know anything anymore. It's an open invite posted to a Facebook group, so not targeted at me in any way. Just the perils of living in a small country.

Speaking of, like SJohn my Linkedin profile is just to show I exist and hasn't ever done me any good, but Facebook seems to play the role that LinkedIn thinks it does, and effectively so, and it is the main reason I have a facebook account at this point. Like 90% of the job advertisements in my field(s) go out primarily through various facebook groups (my last real job, I'm pretty sure, was posted nowhere but the Israel Urban Planners group) professional events, workshops, conferences, etc are circulated through facebook, and various likes, follows and comment exchanges have led to some relevant professional connections. So I kind of want to dismiss the professional usefulness of Linkedin, but that's actually not the case - it's just that facebook fills that niche.

[Proudfeet]

On 12/11/2016 at 3:58 PM, Proudfeet said:

After considering it for a little longer, I think my main point of reluctance is that I'm not keen on the job. The salary is disappointing, sure, but it isn't that much lower than what I wanted. I'm feel like I'm sticking to it because I want an excuse to myself to not continue. The only reason I am considering it at all is that if I were to take another job, I would probably have to accept an even lower offer because of my current salary. I don't have the leverage of saying that they were already paying the recruitment agency that amount after all.

Anyway, I talked to my manager and he said he would try to see if I could get that small bump. I feel kind of bad its not his decision.

So, they are sticking to their original offer. I really don't know. I'm hesitant about accepting an offer when I am already thinking about when I can leave. It seems like really poor behaviour to me.

[baxus]

I'm having a really bad day at the office.

Our management has been making promises our product can't deliver, we're getting all sorts of mixed signals, our software architect has been really vague with instructions and solutions... It's really frustrating. On top of that, when asked for a bit of clarification regarding certain tasks, he started getting disrespectful.

Honestly, I was very close to quitting right there on the spot, during our conversation. Hopefully, this Stockholm position works out and I get to do that soon.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

Our annual performance evaluations have been re-formatted. We will no longer get marked 1-5, we will get "Needs Improvement" or "Meets expectations" so basically a pass/fail rating.

I think one of the reasons for it is to not in any way shape or form encourage people to do illegal/underhanded/shady things in order to get a better performance review.

I'm a bit disappointed as it would have likely been my best performance review ever.

I also don't know how this will affect our bonus as it is in part based on our performance evaluations I don't know all the formulas though, or how they will change. I think it was something like this: Company performance 50%, Division 25%, and performance review 25%

[Iskaral Pust]

I appreciate the responses on this but I realized I should not leave such specific details in a post.  It's a very remote possibility but someone might read this and recognize the situation.  I don't to make it worse by revealing that she applied for a position at my firm. 

[Datepalm]

Woah.

Did you really bring up some variation of 'so I've heard you're sleeping with your boss. How do you plan to address this going forward?' to her face in an interview?

[Iskaral Pust]

43 minutes ago, Datepalm said:

Woah.

Did you really bring up some variation of 'so I've heard you're sleeping with your boss. How do you plan to address this going forward?' to her face in an interview?

A gentler variation but basically yes.  That's why I was dreading this conversation.  But I couldn't not ask and ignore all that I heard about this being a root cause of a toxic and resentful work environment.  And if I took the easy route of just ignoring her application without hearing her side, that would be grossly unfair. 

[Datepalm]

Well, you did and she denies it, and all you've got are rumors. I'm wondering what a positive outcome of this interview would have been, from the perspective of making her more hireable - Yes, I was sleeping with him, but i've learned my lesson and I'm not going to do that again? I got drunk that one time, but it was actually an interaction with my diabetics medication and the client had been groping me under the table all evening. I've gotten way better at accomodating that?

In wanting to give the benefit of a doubt to a woman who's having her very personal life dragged out into her workplace, and being forced to carry the consequences of her boss's and teammates unprofessional behaviour - which you also just have rumors of - I'm tempted to say you've done your due diligence in that regard and the decent thing to do is to try and disassociate that whole mess from what you have on her as actually being qualified to do the job. I don't think a toxic work evironment is something you can usually pin on a single person (and if you can, then its whoever is in charge) nor analyze from the outside. Assuming that this is someone who carries toxicity around with her seems unfair.

[Xray the Enforcer]

Jesus Christ, if someone asked me about that in a job interview I'd never work for them because fuck that invasion of privacy. No, the "due diligence" argument doesn't wash. This was a gross overstep on your side.

[Iskaral Pust]

Thanks guys, this is the kind of input I needed.  I was worried that it was a gross over-step.  I discussed with my wife a couple of times beforehand and concluded I either had to pass over her application or else ask about it.  But there was a third option to ignore what I had heard from four different former colleagues, which seemed impossible but is perfect with hindsight. 

And I agree with Datepalm on a complete fresh slate, but I wanted to make sure I was not over-compensating for feeling such a shitheel.  

[MercenaryChef]

dude, that was grossly unprofessional. if you don't hire her you have opened yourself and your firm up to all kinds of fun legal shenanigans because of your idiotic interview questions. 

what in the holy fuck were you thinking?

how is who your employees allegedly fuck any of your business? addressing rumors in a job interview is out of fucking bounds.   

[kairparavel]

I'm with Xray - I'd never accept an offer and I would launch a complaint about the line of questioning.

 

ETA Next time you might want to run it by your HR and legal teams instead of your wife. 

[Balefont]

Yup.  

 

Could she lawyer up and sue for defamation since these rumors are clearly costing her employment opportunities?

 

Also, maybe she's so fucking awesome at her job people feel threatened and that's on them not her.  Sounds more like you lost out on some amazing talent. 

[Hereward]

At any place I've ever worked, you'd be fired for asking that question. 

[Iskaral Pust]

Oh crap.  I honestly thought it was better to address it than just ignore her application.  I thought long and hard about this, and I even checked again beforehand with someone who had told me about it to make sure this wasn't frivolous.

I guess I better disclose all of this to HR now. I was hoping that the story, especially since it's untrue, wouldn't be revealed to anyone else in our firm. 

[Iskaral Pust]

FWIW, there's no defamation going on in our firm.  This was related by people leaving my prior firm as they went other places.  One of those who shared that story is at my firm now.  It was her alcohol incident that was noted by colleagues in my firm. 

[Mlle. Zabzie]

Isk I hate to pile on because I think you know you done wrong, but there is just so much wrong here. She is more patient than I am. After expressing shock and upset I would have stood up and asked to be taken back to HR. We would have been done. This is exhibit a, b and c why women have difficulty retaining traction in male dominated industries.  The double standards. The reliance on the old boys network for hiring decisions. Assumptions based on looks. Think. You have always struck me as a decent sort who wants to do right. Please learn from this. Please hold yourself and your department up to a mirror, unafraid and confront this stuff. Even stuff you didn't know you had. Get the devastating data. Look at promotion trends. Never ask about someones sex life in an interview again. And always follow the golden rule. Cheers. 

[Mexal]

1 hour ago, Balefont said:

Yup.  

Could she lawyer up and sue for defamation since these rumors are clearly costing her employment opportunities?

Also, maybe she's so fucking awesome at her job people feel threatened and that's on them not her.  Sounds more like you lost out on some amazing talent. 

I don't think so. This isn't one of those protected class situations based on anything I can find.

Isk, prob best to talk to your HR to see what kind of actions she can take though I don't think there are many legally. In the future, I suggest you think about the person and what you're actually going to gain from that type of questioning. I can't see any answer she could give you that would do anything to improve her chances at working for you. If she admits it, then you know it happened and you say no. If she doesn't, you might think she's lying. If you ask her and it's untrue, you humiliate her to a ridiculous degree and she won't want to work for you. I mean, this was an entirely no win situation for you or her the minute you ask that question. 

[Iskaral Pust]

I feel even worse than I did before.  

It's obvious now that it was a no-win situation.  I really thought that ignoring her application was the worst thing to do to her, but that I couldn't press ahead without addressing these red flags about professional judgment.  I thought tactful openness was best. 

I'll take it to HR now before I say anything further to her. 

[Lily Valley]

Isk, I am glad you are going to HR.  I'm with Zabzie on this one.  I probably would have been so pissed I would have bypassed your HR department and gone straight to an attorney.