Careerchat II

[baxus]

I'm trying to imagine someone asking me about my sex life during interview and I just can't. It's just so weird to think about THAT topic ever coming up in a job interview. You've definitely overstepped the boundaries of professional behavior. Hell man, even if you had a valid professional reason for asking it, it was plain rude. Questioning someone's sex life is off limits in a professional environment. I wouldn't ask my closest friends a question like that over beers, let alone someone I've only just met and/or might work with soon.

Sorry for being so blunt Isk. You seem like a good guy from what I've seen on this board, but this was just wrong. Hopefully, this gets sorted out quickly and with the least amount of fuss possible.

[HexMachina]

3 hours ago, Mexal said:

I don't think so. This isn't one of those protected class situations based on anything I can find.

Isk, prob best to talk to your HR to see what kind of actions she can take though I don't think there are many legally. In the future, I suggest you think about the person and what you're actually going to gain from that type of questioning. I can't see any answer she could give you that would do anything to improve her chances at working for you. If she admits it, then you know it happened and you say no. If she doesn't, you might think she's lying. If you ask her and it's untrue, you humiliate her to a ridiculous degree and she won't want to work for you. I mean, this was an entirely no win situation for you or her the minute you ask that question. 

Is sex not a protected characteristic/class? 

On a separate matter though. I''ll be graduating next year and have started applying for jobs. Thought long and hard about it and decided that I don't want to go and practice law, despite doing my LLB. I progressing steadily through one application at the moment and I'm at I think the third or fourth stage now, which is encouraging. However, if I get to the next stage it's the face-to-face interview, which is the part I am most worried about. I've always done poorly in interviews, I get very nervous and lose my train of though, or speak very quickly and become incoherent, or slip into a much more heavily accented voice which people often find difficult to understand. It's odd, because I'm more comfortable speaking to large groups now than I have been in the past, but against an interviewer I give to pieces. I am working on that, but I would appreciate some advice for interviews in general, so I can be fairly prepared. A few questions, which probably seem inane but I'm nervous so I wanted to ask them:

Would it be unusual if I were to take in some notes? Not loads, I'm talking an a4 sheet with a few points on.

Does it look bad on my part if I take a short pause before responding to the interviewer to collect my thoughts and answer the question? 

What is the practice in the event they ask about your weaknesses? I don't want to come across as some full of themselves candidate who doesn't have any weaknesses, but at the same time I want them to actually hire me and not think I'm useless. I know what my weaknesses are, but I don't know how to frame them or how many to mention to avoid coming across as a poor candidate.

[Liffguard]

9 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

What is the practice in the event they ask about your weaknesses? I don't want to come across as some full of themselves candidate who doesn't have any weaknesses, but at the same time I want them to actually hire me and not think I'm useless. I know what my weaknesses are, but I don't know how to frame them or how many to mention to avoid coming across as a poor candidate.

What I've always done with some success is tell them genuine weaknesses, but then immediately follow up with how I'm actively improving upon those weaknesses.

 

[Xray the Enforcer]

4 hours ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

Isk I hate to pile on because I think you know you done wrong, but there is just so much wrong here. She is more patient than I am. After expressing shock and upset I would have stood up and asked to be taken back to HR. We would have been done. This is exhibit a, b and c why women have difficulty retaining traction in male dominated industries.  The double standards. The reliance on the old boys network for hiring decisions. Assumptions based on looks. Think. You have always struck me as a decent sort who wants to do right. Please learn from this. Please hold yourself and your department up to a mirror, unafraid and confront this stuff. Even stuff you didn't know you had. Get the devastating data. Look at promotion trends. Never ask about someones sex life in an interview again. And always follow the golden rule. Cheers. 

I'm quoting this because it's everything I want to say, but said calmly and with a minimum of swear words. And I really, really, really think everything in here is important for ALL hiring managers to acknowledge. Good luck Isk.

[Balefont]

As far as a defamation suit, I was thinking more against those people spreading the rumors.  There seems to be a case for lost employment opportunities.

[Wrl6199]

Just now, Balefont said:

As far as a defamation suit, I was thinking more against those people spreading the rumors.  There seems to be a case for lost employment opportunities.

Yeah.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

@HelenaExMachina - I wouldn't take notes during the interview, but I would immediately thereafter.  A pause before you answer is just fine.  Remember, you are confident and amazing every time you walk into the room (even if you feel like 2-day old toast).  You'll do great.  Best of luck!

[Inigima]

Isk -- I agree that the line of questioning was a problem, but you're also saying she denied the "bad behavior at client event" report. Did that come from people you trust? If so, the other thing notwithstanding, I'd be worried about hiring someone who lied to you about it. Unfortunately the other thing has probably poisoned the well on that.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

Ini - totally disagree. Sounds to me that the colleagues didn't want her hired and/or in original context were looking for reasons to put her in a bad light. Sounds like the client wasn't concerned (and if "reported" to client probably backfired).  She should have been interviewed on her own merits based on her performance in interview. 

[karaddin]

I'd add that given the environment I'm picturing from what's been described so far she may have been tipsy, probably less than any of the men there, but due to the double standards going on it was seen as a problem by others and not even seen as being drunk by her. That's another of the many ways sexist double standards play out.

[Mexal]

13 hours ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

Ini - totally disagree. Sounds to me that the colleagues didn't want her hired and/or in original context were looking for reasons to put her in a bad light. Sounds like the client wasn't concerned (and if "reported" to client probably backfired).  She should have been interviewed on her own merits based on her performance in interview. 

 

10 hours ago, karaddin said:

I'd add that given the environment I'm picturing from what's been described so far she may have been tipsy, probably less than any of the men there, but due to the double standards going on it was seen as a problem by others and not even seen as being drunk by her. That's another of the many ways sexist double standards play out.

Think you're both making assumptions here based on how you'd expect a woman to be treated, not necessarily based on what happened. While I understand this happens, that men put women down because they're jealous of their awesomeness and don't want her hired, I do think it's entirely possible she was inappropriate after having a few drinks. I've seen it happen myself a number of times and it's definitely not out of the realm of possibility. 

Now I still think it's a loaded question to even bring it up so it's not a topic I'd broach but the automatic assumption that she's entirely innocent and that everyone else is so jealous of her that multiple people would lie about her seems a bit much to me.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

4 hours ago, Mexal said:

 

Think you're both making assumptions here based on how you'd expect a woman to be treated, not necessarily based on what happened. While I understand this happens, that men put women down because they're jealous of their awesomeness and don't want her hired, I do think it's entirely possible she was inappropriate after having a few drinks. I've seen it happen myself a number of times and it's definitely not out of the realm of possibility. 

Now I still think it's a loaded question to even bring it up so it's not a topic I'd broach but the automatic assumption that she's entirely innocent and that everyone else is so jealous of her that multiple people would lie about her seems a bit much to me.

Didn't say that I thought she was "innocent".  I have no idea what happened.  Hell, maybe she stood on the table and sang the Marseillaise.  But given the context in which it was reported, I stand by my comment, particularly as it was specifically noted that it wasn't a client relationship problem.

[Datepalm]

Some places I've worked that would make her more hireable, not less.

[karaddin]

6 hours ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

Didn't say that I thought she was "innocent".  I have no idea what happened.  Hell, maybe she stood on the table and sang the Marseillaise.  But given the context in which it was reported, I stand by my comment, particularly as it was specifically noted that it wasn't a client relationship problem.

I'll just add to this that the context of this being reported is most definitely why I'm making those same assumptions. This is a woman who has had rumours spread about her undermining her professional appearance, damn straight I'm going to view "other rumours about inappropriate behaviour are still growing in this sexist ground" as the default.

[sperry]

 

On 11/19/2016 at 4:03 PM, baxus said:

I'm trying to imagine someone asking me about my sex life during interview and I just can't. It's just so weird to think about THAT topic ever coming up in a job interview. You've definitely overstepped the boundaries of professional behavior. Hell man, even if you had a valid professional reason for asking it, it was plain rude. Questioning someone's sex life is off limits in a professional environment. I wouldn't ask my closest friends a question like that over beers, let alone someone I've only just met and/or might work with soon.

Sorry for being so blunt Isk. You seem like a good guy from what I've seen on this board, but this was just wrong. Hopefully, this gets sorted out quickly and with the least amount of fuss possible.

 

I think it's a grey area if your sex life has bled over into your professional life. In my opinion, the appropriate thing to do here was to report your concerns to HR and recuse yourself from interviewing that person.

[HexMachina]

On 19/11/2016 at 10:04 PM, Liffguard said:

What I've always done with some success is tell them genuine weaknesses, but then immediately follow up with how I'm actively improving upon those weaknesses.

 

Obvious answer is obvious in hindsight! Thank you  

On 19/11/2016 at 11:58 PM, Mlle. Zabzie said:

@HelenaExMachina - I wouldn't take notes during the interview, but I would immediately thereafter.  A pause before you answer is just fine.  Remember, you are confident and amazing every time you walk into the room (even if you feel like 2-day old toast).  You'll do great.  Best of luck!

Thank you!

I got the email today confirming I had made it through to the next stage of the application. My interview is in two weeks!

In preparation I've arranged with my careers service at uni to do a practice interview, where they can give me pointers on technique and where to improve and so on.

[Kalbear]

Being self-critical and self-aware is something I look for in interviews. I value the honesty and expect everyone to be able to articulate what is a flaw. 

Also, I take copious notes when I'm doing an interview, and encourage others to do the same. It makes a good way to indicate that you're paying attention, it lets you ask different questions of different interviewers during the loop, and it makes it easy to thank interviewers afterwards (something you should always do regardless of how it went) and give specific details on what you liked. It also helps prepare you for future interviews. 

[baxus]

12 hours ago, sperry said:

I think it's a grey area if your sex life has bled over into your professional life. In my opinion, the appropriate thing to do here was to report your concerns to HR and recuse yourself from interviewing that person.

I don't think it's a grey area at all. If I were to have a sexual relationship with my coworker, it would be none of others' business, for as long as we handled it in a responsible and adult fashion. If we started throwing tantrums and getting into some high-school drama, making everyone uncomfortable in the process, that wouldn't be a grey area either. It would be inappropriate behavior and we should be reprimanded.

Any way, I agree that checking with HR would've been wise.

[Iskaral Pust]

5 hours ago, baxus said:

 If we started throwing tantrums and getting into some high-school drama, making everyone uncomfortable in the process, that wouldn't be a grey area either. It would be inappropriate behavior and we should be reprimanded.

This is basically (almost but not quite) what was reported to me by 100% (sample size of 4) of the other people I had interviewed from that competitor over the past 3 years.  I never asked about it, it was volunteered each time as a reason for them wanting out. 

These rumors are unknown inside my firm.  I did not allow them to spread. The people who reported the drunkenness at the client dinner have no idea about the other stuff. 

 

[Iskaral Pust]

I reported it to HR and my boss, starting with a big mea culpa. They weren't upset at all.  One HR thinks there are too many red flags and I should not have interviewed, the other HR thinks we should give her the benefit of the doubt and proceed as normal from here (but probably would have declined to interview originally), my boss says we can proceed now but would not have with only my pre-interview information.  They all would have liked to have known before I interviewed.  They all agreed that ugly rumors can happen, and moreso to women, but the situation will not be objectively knowable either way and the observation by our senior colleagues at the client dinner is troubling.

The candidate herself sent me a follow-up note to thank me for telling her what no-one else would and asking if we can proceed.  I know that doesn't exonerate me in the slightest and she might just be in a situation where she needs to proceed with this despite me not because of me.  

We'll proceed now like any other candidate and this won't be shared any further.

Posting here was basically my self-flagellation when I knew I had misjudged.  The real world tends to be a bit less SJW than the board.  Thanks  all for being my conscience.