Does Jon learn about his parentage due to the death of Rickon Stark? (spoilers potentially)

[Melisandre's Rubies]

6 hours ago, Nymeria Pao said:

Um, why would Jon bury Rickon in the crypts?  Aren't the crypts only for the old Kings of the North and after the Targs only the Wardens of the North?  Isn't the whole thing about Lyanna being down there the whole hint that she was the Queen of Westeros and that's why Ned put her there?  Maybe there is something in her tomb but I don't think Rickon's death would show it.  Maybe if they get Ned's bones? 

But this is the show so maybe it doesn't matter.

My interpretation has always been that all the Starks are buried in the crypts but that only the Kings/Lords of Winterfell had actual statues marking their tombs. They would have to bury other family member somewhere and no other place is mentioned at all. When Ned took Robert down to the crypts he thought this
"Ned stopped at last and lifted the oil lantern. The crypt continued on into darkness ahead of them, but beyond this point the tombs were empty and unsealed; black holes waiting for their dead, waiting for him and his children."

Bran explains that Ned broke tradition by placing statues of Brandon and Lyanna at their tombs, since they were not Lords of Winterfell. 
"His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father’s brother. They’re not supposed to have statues, that’s only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done.”

A Game of Thrones – Bran VII

[RhaenysBee]

6 hours ago, IrisBest said:

I've been wondering if this might be how it goes, since it could end up being impossible to prove and maybe ultimately only a few characters will know about it. It'll be highly relevant to Jon and a few others personally and would certainly have a big impact on his dynamic with Dany when/if they meet, which may be the most important thing, plot-wise. 

Idk why but I really like the idea of Rhaegar or Lyanna (or both) having left a letter to Jon which Ned perhaps hid in the tomb. Mostly because it'd be more interesting if Jon actually got a real message from one or both of his bio parents which answers questions (for Jon and the readers) instead of just finding some symbolic item.

Fans (including myself) really enjoy discussing and theorizing how something will/can be proved in the story. Sometimes I get the feeling that we seriously over think these evidence issues. I feel like we are stuck in a modern day mind set and think that proving something takes scientific evidence, ten eye witnesses and video footage. In Game of Thrones world proof is knowing about a Dorne shaped birthmark, any one person's word, and having the right shade of hair. If they want to prove it they will. Even today, it's very very very difficult to prove something so it can't be attacked.

and I agree that it's more likely to affect his character rather than the storyline. Also agree that finding (only) Rhaegar's harp would be stupid, I'm all for a letter or a document (that maybe even tells us he was legitimate because mama and papa got married). I mean it wouldn't be the first time that someone dictated a letter on their death bed to Ned Stark and made him promise to help their son. Or maybe Rhaegar wrote something before he left for the Trident... Or maybe not and Jon will just have to trust Howland/Bran's visions. 

[Nymeria Pao]

7 hours ago, Melisandre's Rubies said:

My interpretation has always been that all the Starks are buried in the crypts but that only the Kings/Lords of Winterfell had actual statues marking their tombs. They would have to bury other family member somewhere and no other place is mentioned at all. When Ned took Robert down to the crypts he thought this
"Ned stopped at last and lifted the oil lantern. The crypt continued on into darkness ahead of them, but beyond this point the tombs were empty and unsealed; black holes waiting for their dead, waiting for him and his children."
...

You are right.  I apologize, it has been a few years since my last re-read and things seem to get jumbled between show and books in my memory.  But I still don't think anything will come of the crypts any time soon.  Hopefully I am wrong!

[illinifan]

23 hours ago, joma said:

but seriously why would Jon accept Rickons death when Jon knows Mel could bring him back, plus hes the only true born 'walking' heir of winterfell.

Based on the trailer. 

Spoiler

Jon orders Melisandre not to bring him back so we know he isn't a fan on it.

 

[illinifan]

I am going to go with Littlefinger figuring out Jon's lineage (which isn't too difficult) and it either being confirmed by Melisandre's fires or the crypts.  Jon seeing the same vision that Dany did (the Iron Throne covered in snow) and perhaps a vision of the ToJ would be pretty cool.  

I'm not sure how Jon's lineage is confirmed but I suspect that it has something to do with the dragons.  I also suspect that Westros sees Jon is an acceptable alternative to Dany for both bad reasons (sexism) and good reasons (Dany's invasion ends up harming even more people than have already been harmed.)

[Melisandre's Rubies]

1 hour ago, Nymeria Pao said:

You are right.  I apologize, it has been a few years since my last re-read and things seem to get jumbled between show and books in my memory.  But I still don't think anything will come of the crypts any time soon.  Hopefully I am wrong!

Oh don't be sorry, I struggle sometimes as well to keep the two separate and had to search it out to be sure that I was remembering it correctly. I don't really know whether the crypts will factor in at some point, there is Jon's recurring dream but that may just be a metaphorical hint at what he will learn. I don't see burying Rickon as what would lead to that revelation though. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 17/6/2016 at 5:05 PM, joma said:

 hes the only true born 'walking' heir of winterfell.

Not true. Sansa is also an heir.

[CrypticWeirwood]

43 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Not true. Sansa is also an heir.

In a sense she is, and in a sense she is not.

You could say that she’s the distaff side heir, but she is certainly not the spear side heir.  As reckoned in the Middle Kingdoms that lie between Westeros’s twin poles of Winterfell and Starfell, being a woman she cannot inherit directly.  Anything she inherits becomes her husband’s property, as does she and anything that is hers.  Her son could then reign as the head of their house but she never could.

Of course, the North no more respects all that nonsense than Dorne does.  “Baelish” theft of Winterfell's daughter and eventual inheritance of the house mantle through her occurred long ago with Bael the Bard, and as a fine example of nominative determinism at work it will recur here with Petyr “Pinkie” Baelish as well — be it with a twist or otherwise.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

9 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

In a sense she is, and in a sense she is not.

Not true.

9 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Her son could then reign as the head of their house but she never could.

Not true either. We have examples of women being the Head of a House not only in the books but also in ther series, like Lyanna Mormont. Except from one House there is not a proof that a woman cannot be the Head of the House and rule in her own right.

 

[CrypticWeirwood]

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Not true.

Not true either. We have examples of women being the Head of a House not only in the books but also in ther series, like Lyanna Mormont. Except from one House there is not a proof that a woman cannot be the Head of the House and rule in her own right.

I'm afraid you've completely misread me.  What part of "Of course, the North no more respects all that nonsense than Dorne does” confused you so badly?

I was laying out the Andals’ rules in their middle kingdoms at the center of Westeros, rules which I immediately cast aside as applying to neither the First Men of Winterfell nor the Rhoynish of Starfell. The kingdoms at the periphery have their own traditions — and keep them.

I guess you missed that part.  

[Jon's Queen Consort]

34 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

I'm afraid you've completely misread me.  What part of "Of course, the North no more respects all that nonsense than Dorne does” confused you so badly?

I was laying out the Andals’ rules in their middle kingdoms at the center of Westeros, rules which I immediately cast aside as applying to neither the First Men of Winterfell nor the Rhoynish of Starfell. The kingdoms at the periphery have their own traditions — and keep them.

I guess you missed that part.  

I am  sorry but I don't understand what you mean. You mean that according to the Andal law, which is both wrong and have nothing to do with the North, a woman cannot be the heir or rule by her own right?

[Red Tiger]

Traditions dont matter in the face of power. Lady Hornwood was ruling her husbands house after he died and Lady Dustin is ruling hers after HER husband died. Its more about the person than about tradition.

[TickTak7]

23 hours ago, RhaeBee said:

While I kinda agree, let's keep in mind that Jon, as of now, is a bastard and Robb was a legitimate Stark and the Lord of Winterfell. 

At the end of the day though, Jon will be whatever Martin wants him to be in whatever way Martin decides. 

Agreed. 

Martin has handled Jon differently than his other characters though. While it seems he's ruthless with them, he seems a lot more cautious with Jon (obviously). 

I'm thinking that he somehow becomes King in the North and leads them against the Long Night, but let's see

[UnViserion]

On 6/17/2016 at 0:47 PM, Jayc said:

Even if he tells Jon who else would believe them?

"Oh by the way, my brother traveled in time and found out my daddy is Rheagar Targ."

The only way those in story believe who Jon is has to be something similar to Dany hatching the dragons. Telling aint gonna work.

Agreed. 

Notice how Jon hasn't been going from holdfast to holdfast talking about how the White Walkers are marching on the wall? Or how he died and was resurrected? There's a reason. 

People don't believe shit just because someone says it in the complete absence of evidence. 

[Ser Gareth]

On 17 June 2016 at 5:50 PM, El Guapo said:

There is no "Targs = fire proof" thing.  Viserys was burned and so was Jon.

There is however a "Daenerys = Fireproof"  thing on the show.

 

Dany seems to be the special case.  She was also fireproof in the pit when she rode Drogon.  As you said other Targs don't seem to share this trait with her.

[Kytheros]

On 6/17/2016 at 0:08 PM, RhaeBee said:

Really? I mean is that a fact and how does this work? 

I mean Jon knows that Bran is on a quest north of the wall. And as someone who has been on a quest north of the wall he shouldn't automatically assume that Bran is dead. He's been expecting Benjen back since season 1, so why wouldn't he expect Bran back? 

And that just goes like that, someone is off on a quest and he is automatically swept aside? Isn't it kinda their duty to at least try and look for him before they presume he is gone for good? Will the honorable Starks ditch the possibility of Bran being alive because it's convenient? I mean it's possible, but certainly pretty weird to me. 

I'm saying that it is very difficult to inherit, even if you are the first in line, if nobody knows you're still alive or where to look for you. And that a legitimate heir who is present is a lot easier to support than somebody who is missing and everyone has previously been told is dead, even if the source is later proven to have lied about that.

If they knew both that Bran was still alive and where he was, then they would send word, summoning him to take up his inheritance. However, they don't know that Bran is still alive, and have no idea where he is or even, really, where one might start to look for him or his body - "north of the Wall" is a pretty big place, after all.

For that matter, Jon knows how dangerous it is north of the Wall - Bran is crippled and his only help is his direwolf Summer, Hodor and two crannogmen not much older than Bran. Meera's the same age as Jon, roughly, and Jojen about a year or two older than Bran, I think; both of them, however, have lived their entire lives in the bogs of the Neck. Hodor is mentally challenged. Summer has no opposable thumbs.
And that's not even considering the threat of the White Walkers and the wights roaming north of the Wall.
Objectively speaking, Bran's chances of long term survival north of the Wall are pretty bad.

Benjen is a trained and experienced Ranger of the Watch, with over a decade of experience in the Watch and North of the Wall (with the age advances, probably more like two decades). And even then, Jon hopes Benjen is still alive, but recognizes that Benjen probably isn't coming back, and his fate will most likely never be known.
 

 

As for inheritance rights in the North, females have plenty of inheritance rights, at least, in the book-North. Sister before Uncle/daughter before brother. Normally, Sansa would be in the succession behind Bran and Rickon, and before Arya. If Jon as an acknowledged bastard son of Eddard Stark were legitimized, he would be behind Bran and Rickon, and his place relative to Sansa and Arya would be a situational determination, per GRRM's comments on the order of succession.

[RhaenysBee]

26 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

I'm saying that it is very difficult to inherit, even if you are the first in line, if nobody knows you're still alive or where to look for you. And that a legitimate heir who is present is a lot easier to support than somebody who is missing and everyone has previously been told is dead, even if the source is later proven to have lied about that.

If they knew both that Bran was still alive and where he was, then they would send word, summoning him to take up his inheritance. However, they don't know that Bran is still alive, and have no idea where he is or even, really, where one might start to look for him or his body - "north of the Wall" is a pretty big place, after all.

For that matter, Jon knows how dangerous it is north of the Wall - Bran is crippled and his only help is his direwolf Summer, Hodor and two crannogmen not much older than Bran. Meera's the same age as Jon, roughly, and Jojen about a year or two older than Bran, I think; both of them, however, have lived their entire lives in the bogs of the Neck. Hodor is mentally challenged. Summer has no opposable thumbs.
And that's not even considering the threat of the White Walkers and the wights roaming north of the Wall.
Objectively speaking, Bran's chances of long term survival north of the Wall are pretty bad.

Benjen is a trained and experienced Ranger of the Watch, with over a decade of experience in the Watch and North of the Wall (with the age advances, probably more like two decades). And even then, Jon hopes Benjen is still alive, but recognizes that Benjen probably isn't coming back, and his fate will most likely never be known.
 

 

As for inheritance rights in the North, females have plenty of inheritance rights, at least, in the book-North. Sister before Uncle/daughter before brother. Normally, Sansa would be in the succession behind Bran and Rickon, and before Arya. If Jon as an acknowledged bastard son of Eddard Stark were legitimized, he would be behind Bran and Rickon, and his place relative to Sansa and Arya would be a situational determination, per GRRM's comments on the order of succession.

Yeah, you're right, that actually makes pretty much perfect sense and explains why Rickon's return is (could have been if Jon and Sansa bothered to mention him when negotiating) a big deal. 

As far as Bran is concerned, thanks for line all those issues up. It's really funny how we bitch about the show not being realistic or making sense and yet 8 year old cripple with a half wit giant, two other kids and a wolf in the frozen wilderness is totes okay. 

[schweiny91]

On 6/17/2016 at 0:50 PM, El Guapo said:

There is no "Targs = fire proof" thing.  Viserys was burned and so was Jon.

There is however a "Daenerys = Fireproof"  thing on the show.

 

Remember jon did burn his hand badly when he burned the wight that attacked lord commander mormont

[Count Winter]

20 hours ago, illinifan said:

Based on the trailer. 

  Hide contents

Jon orders Melisandre not to bring him back so we know he isn't a fan on it.

 

Can anyone be brought back at anytime?

[Lord Friendzone]

29 minutes ago, Count Winter said:

Can anyone be brought back at anytime?

The longer the person stays the better the chance this person could end up like LSH. If R'hllor wants it, they prform it shortly after their death  then anyone can be brought back.