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Danny has to get the slave masters to surrender because she needs their ships. She can't show Drogon till the morning or they will just run.

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While I enjoyed the episode (mostly) some things annoyed:

another viewing of dead Shaggydog head....goddammit enough already!!!

i thought for sure smalljon would turn on Ramsey.....nope

no Ghost, grrrrrrrrr

Rickon was kind of a waste, its been like 3 episodes since anyone even mentioned him......even his death was like "eh" let's get to the battle 

jon's skills leading the battle.....non existent.

 

i did like the dragons though!

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1 hour ago, of man and wolf said:

Was kind of wondering....but how long does it take for a Wolfs head to start to rot?? Shaggy still looked the same as the day Rickon was brought to Ramsay.

Well, it is winter. Nature's  freezer.

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1 hour ago, Lady White Wolf said:

 

jon's skills leading the battle.....non existent.

 

i did like the dragons though!

Yeah. I agree. This was supposed to be Jons big awakening and he was a totally feckless battlefield commander. He basically told Sansa the night before he had no idea what to do. His "big plan" was to dig ditches. He got completely out maneuvered and saved by his sister. Lame. 

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7 hours ago, elbucho3 said:

I'll never understand how folks are able to be cool with a scene containing flying dragons or a giant but will get caught up on why a wooden stag wouldn't have burned completely. 

Word!

I think everyone has their own definition of verisimilitude or suspension of disbelief. For some, since dragons are not real in our world they have their own rules of how they should interact with "reality," but since wooden stags ARE real in our world we should be able to predict how they would interact with reality. 

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10 minutes ago, madprofessah said:

Word!

I think everyone has their own definition of verisimilitude or suspension of disbelief. For some, since dragons are not real in our world they have their own rules of how they should interact with "reality," but since wooden stags ARE real in our world we should be able to predict how they would interact with reality. 
 

And it was very clearly found outside the area of the fire. Shireen dropped it when she saw the stake.

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First impressions, random thoughts, it’s relatively early here, the warblers are singing merrily, the sun shines through the birches. Season 6 is all about wish fulfillment, who said that? It’s true. We’ve been wishing it and now we get it, we see it. Ramsay eaten alive by his dogs while Sansa is watching? Done. Three fire-breathing dragons over enemy fleet? You have it. Davos confronts Mel with the wooden stag? Well, it’s the beginning of this inevitable confrontation. (And yes, Shireen was carrying the toy to her burningplace, a heartbreaking scene. Maybe she dropped it before the fire started.) Epic battle? Even two. Wun Wun smashing the gates? Yes, he does it. And many, many more wishes do come true.

Well, they tried to show us two battles so both came somewhat less significant, less impactful. Daenerys and Tyrion, two children of harsh fathers, meet alone, what a scene it could have been (but it wasn’t). And then Daenerys and Yara / Asha, two children of violent kings. Yara’s (no, I think she’s not Asha, after all) words “I’m up to anything” are very GoTish. Anyway, the Masters are defeated (temporarily), what about Euron’s fleet? Maybe there's even no need for Meereen in ep10.

But there must be KL. They’ve been postponing and postponing Cersei’s trial and now it really can’t be postponed much more. Dany and Tyrion talk about Aerys’ wildfire caches under KL so it’s another not-so-subtle hint for Cersei’s madness. (Were they shooting KL in Girona (not only in Dubrovnik) for this season? I think somebody said the filming crew have no plans to return there.) Well, no need to kill off Kevan, Pycelle etc. separately from the rest of the capital then. But this Varys scene from Dance epilogue could be inserted, why not. And I don’t know about Tommen, he obviously has to die but they have no time for this (I remember s5ep10 with its death-sprint, though).

And there must be ToJ, Bran, Sam (?), who else? Arya? You remember this lying game with Maisie and Sophie: now, after these three episodes, we know that Maisie’s #1 (probably) and #2 are true (then #3 is a lie and she yet has to kill someone from her list because she didn’t know the Waif’s name), Sophie’s answer #1 (very satisfying scene) is true and #2 is probably not (no LSH) then #3 must be true and Arya has to kill not one but three persons from her list but this would be virtually impossible during only one ep, however long. But maybe the answers were not just about Season 6? Which is near its end, can’t imagine this.

The main battle was not so perfectly done, too many fast, almost stroboscopic movings for my liking, but Jon is alive (and even not wounded, it seems) and Tormund is alive and I think Lyanna Mormont is alive and even Melisandre is alive though now she sees the Stark banner over the Winterfell walls so now she what? must go? What about her second meeting with Arya predicted by Mel herself during their first encounter?

Overall, ep9 is a redemption for some previous eps. What Jon and Sansa will do now? To whom Winterfell belongs now? And what about the North, will Sansa be its queen? And what about Littlefinger, by the way?

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Thoroughly enjoyed the episode and would probably say it was the best one there has been. There can't really be any complaints; Dany is finally doing something meaningful and unleashed the dragons. 

The battle was epic and very well done by the creators so for once Bravo! If i was going to be picky about this i would say the slaughter went on a little long and although we Arryn army were great saving the day i would have preferred seeing them annihilate the Boltons and traitors from the North.

It was a perfect ending for Ramsey though and possibly the worst death of the entire 6 seasons (IMO) he should have listened to Roose haha.

Great episode tho! 

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19 hours ago, Lord Freypie said:

If she had no control / knowledge about the timing of Vale arrival, what she did is just plainly stupid. She puts Jon whole army at risk of being killed before Vale forces arrival hiding him that those reinforcements could be expected.

It's only if she was sure about the timing that hiding this information was defendable : sure that Vale forces were going to save the day but unsure Jon's would have accepted to play the bait, she may have had good reasons to hide the information.

I only partly agree. If she had told Jon to expect forces that she wasn't sure was coming then it could have changed the entire strategy for Jon and his army in his favor if the Vale forces did arrive. But it also could have changed the entire strategy for Jon and his army against his favor if Littlefinger did not arrive. Also, how do we know yet that this is what Sansa planned? Sansa was seen at night and I guess we are to believe that she spent the morning either with Littlefinger and the Vale forces or trying to meet up with Littlefinger and the Vale forces. Maybe we will learn that Sansa spent the morning trying to get the Vale to show up sooner than they did? Maybe we will learn that Sansa spent the morning looking for and hoping that the Vale forces would indeed show up. The show established that she didn't have a place in the War Room of her own brother, what are the chances that she is making decisions on military maneuvers for the Vale of Arryn? Almost none. We also know that Littlefinger has an interest in House Bolton being defeated but also taking as much leverage away from Jon and Sansa as possible so he does have an interest in letting as many Stark/Wildling forces die as possible so maybe she was at the Mercy of Littlefinger and his timing decisions? It has always been his plan to strike at either the Boltons or Stannis at their weakest moment on the battlefield during the Battle of Ice. Maybe that's what they talk about next episode? Deep down, I think it's a show mistake. Maybe even it's a planned motivation and Sansa had some of those similar motivations that Littlefinger did? Like maybe some part of her wanted Jon and his army to be at their weakest too in an attempt at an easier power grab somewhere down the road. Maybe Sansa IS truly becoming a bit** or even a villain on the show. Also, did Sansa create that risk? As far as she last heard, the plan was to hope Ramsay would attack head on so that the Stark forces would envelope the Bolton forces. About as good as a plan as a smaller force could hope for in traditional warfare. As far as she knew, that plan was still on. She had no idea that the Starks were going to be fooled into charging the center of Ramsay's line so I'm not sure if Sansa is really "risking" anything. As far as the plan goes, if it were to work then the arrival of the Vale forces would have been just a huge bonus and insurance.

Yes of course, any normal person would have told Jon about the getting the support of the Vale. I'm not trying to excuse it. I'm trying to say that we don't know yet if this is a character motivation thing of hers or of Littlefinger or if it just reflects on the quality of writing. We have to give it to next episode, at least, to make that judgement because there are still, at the very least, semi-logical reasons to explain what happened last episode and until those are written off then it's hard to make any final determination on that. 

Edited by RedViperHD

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Fantastic episode, I couldn't take my eyes off it.  Not a huge fan of battle scenes in general but that was gripping. It was dirty and noisy and horrifying and hard to know who was on which side at times, like a real battle rather than some romantic notion of one.  The charging horses were beautiful and ominous. The piled up bodies made me think of the army of the dead pouring over the walls at Hardhome - I really hope they burn them all before the cold winds come.  The slow creeping crush of Jon's men as the flayed men shields moved in closer and closer until they could barely breathe. Even the usually fearless Tormond looked panicked.  Brilliant.  I am worried that there are a lot fewer people left at the Wall and in the North in general to face the incoming army of the dead.

Sansa's smile as Ramsay got his comeuppance was great.  I don't think Sansa is evil and scheming as some have said, she is just trying to survive while also dealing with the rape and torture she suffered at Ramsay's hands; and this is after having lost her wolf, seeing her father executed, being mistreated by the Lannisters, used and betrayed by LF and hearing of her mother and siblings being murdered. That would definitely have a huge impact on her mentally and emotionally, but if she was truly cold and heartless she wouldn't have forgiven Theon, she'd have had Brienne kill him.

I was convinced that the Umbers, at least, would change sides at the last minute, but alas, no. I was really really disappointed in the Smalljon and glad when Tormond killed him.  I hope it goes down differently in the book.  As a few others said, I didn't see Harald Karstark meet his end, so I assume he's still alive.

If I remember rightly, Littlefinger was offered Warden Of The North by Cersei on the condition that he got rid of the Boltons.  For one terrible moment, when the new banners unfurled at Winterfell I thought they might be Littlefinger or Vale banners. Phew! Be interesting to see what his next play is - I'm assuming he will try to turn Sansa against Jon by convincing her he is a threat to her succession.  He may try to marry her or get her to marry Robin to secure more power in the Vale. Whatever he does, I really really hope she tells him to fuck off.

Meereen was satisfying progress at last - Dany ended the seige and now has her ships and her vast army for the voyage to Westeros.  The dragons were amazing as always ne we got a 'Dracarys!'.  Dany & Yara's whole "sisters are doin it for themselves" thing made me smile.  Not sure how the Iron Islanders will survive if they can't reave anymore - but I'm assuming that's something to worry about another time.  Maybe they'll all become ship builders and sell those :):) ,

Up til now I've not been a fan of the 'Cersei unleashes wildfire on KL' theory, but even I have to admit that there have been a LOT of mentions of wildfire caches all over the place.  Could be ice and fire next week with the parallel tales of KL and the approaching army of WW in the North.

Like a lot of people, I am wondering where Ghost is.  Ghost has always been more elusive than the other direwolves and, even in the books, he goes missing for considerable periods of time but has a knack of turning up when he's needed.  He would have certainly died if he'd been in that battle, so I'm glad he wasn't.  Maybe he didn't come to Winterfell with Jon as he is going to help Bran next week back at the wall.  Maybe he and Jon are not as connected as they were following his death & resurrection.  Who knows? 

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While I'm still mad at Sansa for holding back the info she did, I have to agree with RedViperHD.  Showing up as late to the battle as they did stinks of LF to me.  With the Bolton forces eliminated, and the Stark loyalists/wildlings decimated LF now controls a very large army, in an area where men of fighting age are very few and far between.  Hopefully Sansa offs him soon, cause I'm sick of the guy.  Of course that means SR would be nominally in charge of the vale forces, which presumably are still required, but maybe Sansa and Jon can come to an agreement of some kind.

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How anyone could not have loved that battle is beyond me. Actually, haters gonna hate.. I'm not surprised to find a few on here. Whatever. It was so well done in its direction, cinematography, suspense.. horses coming in and taking out the guy who's about to slice off a head.. suffocation, the madness.. tormund ripping out umbers throat. Even the ever-so-obvious Vale forces riding in to save the day was great. Dany and Yara - loved it. Dragons kicking off, Dothraki horde riding in.. all of it fantastic.

Best episode ever.

On another note - I can't be the only one bored of hearing 'it's bad / sloppy writing' crap that seems to be mentioned every other post in every single thread? Get a new buzzword people. Lazy arguments getting lazier.

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1 hour ago, FacelessManOf TheShire said:

How anyone could not have loved that battle is beyond me. Actually, haters gonna hate.. I'm not surprised to find a few on here. Whatever. It was so well done in its direction, cinematography, suspense.. horses coming in and taking out the guy who's about to slice off a head.. suffocation, the madness.. tormund ripping out umbers throat. Even the ever-so-obvious Vale forces riding in to save the day was great. Dany and Yara - loved it. Dragons kicking off, Dothraki horde riding in.. all of it fantastic.

Best episode ever.

On another note - I can't be the only one bored of hearing 'it's bad / sloppy writing' crap that seems to be mentioned every other post in every single thread? Get a new buzzword people. Lazy arguments getting lazier.


Sorry to bore you again! :) I think you can have it both ways. I rated this episode a 6 out of ten, and I'm not one of the users from the always very active R&R thread.

The battle itself was very well done, I won't argue with that - however, how some characters got there and acted there was just that: 'bad writing'

Is there a good reason why Sansa did not tell Jon about the Vale forces? Any compelling reason? I really can't think of one, because by just waiting a day they maybe could have saved Rickon's life and the lives of countless loyal soldiers (?) It was just written that way, so we could have that Helms Deep/Blackwater/Castle Black rescue at the last second. In fact, it is the third time the show did this. That's sloppy, isn't it? Well, but maybe GRRM will write it the same way - so, pass for that.

But, why the hell did Jon charge at the whole Bolton force all by himself? Especially with the previous warning by Sansa? Why even write that scene, when the military leader will just ignore any warning and seem like a fool on the battlefield? In know, his brother just got killed, but why did he trie to join Rickon so quickly by senselessly dying moments after this? Why did Ramsay choose to kill already dying Wun-Wun, when he had a clear shot at the (in this moment) un-shielded Jon? Those are just a few minor things, that bother me. If people see past that, that is perfectly fine. Everybody should enjoy, what they enjoy.

I cannot completely. Those things bother me. And seasons 5 & 6 have been full with those little things.

The visuals and the choreography oft this battle were outstanding and I'm still celebrating that beautiful one-take of Jon fighting in the mayhem, but many of those cool things get (imo!) diminished by weird and somewhat unlogical writing choices.
 

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7 minutes ago, Jay Merlan said:

Sorry to bore you again! :) I think you can have it both ways. I rated this episode a 6 out of ten, and I'm not one of the users from the always very active R&R thread.

To be fair, you have just backed up your reasons with further arguments. My point wasn't really aimed at people such as yourself. I just see 'because lazy writing' and that's all that's said.. meh.

I do take your points, but I'm all for allowing them to pass for dramatic purposes. Hell, if I didn't, I would never watch a James Bond film and enjoy it. Or countless others for that matter. I think GoT comes under far more scrutiny than is fair considering both the genre and medium. If it was written by those camped out in the R&R thread it would be d-u-l-l, with whole seasons dedicated to people travelling from one location to another. It is fantastic TV, backed up critically and popularly. It is adored by millions, most of whom would never consider watching a show of its type.

I'll let Sansa off because she couldn't know for sure when / if the Vale forces would arrive. Yes it was very much Helms Deep, but that's fine with me. There's only so many ways you can show an army riding in to the rescue. However it was done, it would likely have been done before.

Also Jon charging - he knows he shouldn't have done it. Davos saw it coming. Even Sansa called it. Which is another reason I think she was within her rights to hold back on the information. She knew Jon and the rest would fall into Ramseys trap. Keeping the Vale forces as her own surprise would only be good for Jon, and always bad for Ramsey. If Jon et al knew about it, well they would probably find a way to fuck that up too.

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3 minutes ago, FacelessManOf TheShire said:

I do take your points, but I'm all for allowing them to pass for dramatic purposes.

Fair enough!
 

3 minutes ago, FacelessManOf TheShire said:

I think GoT comes under far more scrutiny than is fair considering both the genre and medium.

On the one hand, I think you're right. I am not aware of any other show or pop culture thing, that is watched more and picked apart more - maybe Star Wars. But on the other hand I do think that some criticism on the show and D&D is fair and valid. Personally I have the feeling, that the writing and pacing of the seasons/episodes has become progressively weaker while the general production value has become better and better. I still like the show, but I used to like it more.
 

9 minutes ago, FacelessManOf TheShire said:

My point wasn't really aimed at people such as yourself. I just see 'because lazy writing' and that's all that's said.. meh.

Gotcha. I was just trying to justify myself, because I often criticise the show with those word (mostly in personal conversations and not on the forums), albeit I try to give some arguments for these accusations.

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16 minutes ago, Jay Merlan said:

On the one hand, I think you're right. I am not aware of any other show or pop culture thing, that is watched more and picked apart more - maybe Star Wars. But on the other hand I do think that some criticism on the show and D&D is fair and valid. Personally I have the feeling, that the writing and pacing of the seasons/episodes has become progressively weaker while the general production value has become better and better. I still like the show, but I used to like it more.
 

Gotcha. I was just trying to justify myself, because I often criticise the show with those word (mostly in personal conversations and not on the forums), albeit I try to give some arguments for these accusations.

Cheers for your comments.

I'm actually enjoying this season more than the others. My other half (unsullied) commented after last week that she felt the prior two were a bit slow. Same with S5 E1-7 - alot of people found it slow going. I on the other hand thourougly enjoyed the intrigue and development. So clearly there are issues with pacing, but I quite enjoy those points when it slows down. I also adored the scene way back (S3?) with the small council moving chairs around -  a scene that still gets slated - becuase I loved the symbolism behind it all.

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After a re-watch, here's my take on the battle:

  • Sansa warns Jon not to do what Ramsay wants him to do, and also warns him that Rickon is a lost cause. I'm not sure what else she could have done at that point. 
  • With the benefit of hindsight, I also felt like "No one can protect anyone" had the obvious meaning of the response to Jon's promise, but also as a warning of "we can't protect Rickon" and "I can't protect you". 
  • Sansa's goal was to kill Ramsay and take Winterfell. If she loses Jon, the giant, whoever in the process, she's cool with that. The price of doing business. I don't think she wanted to sacrifice Jon and his men, but if it happened, it had to happen. 
  • Let's be honest, if she tells Jon "hey I have this huge army" then there's just a bigger wall of bodies to be trapped against 

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