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44 minutes ago, FacelessManOf TheShire said:

Same with S5 E1-7 - alot of people found it slow going. I on the other hand thourougly enjoyed the intrigue and development. So clearly there are issues with pacing, but I quite enjoy those points when it slows down. I also adored the scene way back (S3?) with the small council moving chairs around -  a scene that still gets slated - becuase I loved the symbolism behind it all.

I also prefer a slower approach to the story and the characters, if it pays off in the end. Although, I found myself pretty disappointed with many S5 arcs. Same problem with the Kings Landing story. Nothing really happened - okay, you could argue that. Well, very little happened. The characters are mostly in the same place as they were in the first episode. What happened? Trial by combat is banned, Margery and Loras are still imprisoned. High Sparrow gained more influence on the Throne aaaand ... Robert Strong killed some people while Cersei smirked.

That is nothing that requires 8 episodes to tell. I expect a good finale especially in KL. D&D are capable of that, but the build up to that is still to weak, too drawn out, the pay off too...late? Still, I will enjoy the good stuff of which there will be plenty - just like in BoB. I am really looking forward to a good season ending.

What I'm trying to say, It's hard to take a middle ground - especially here, online. Either you're a hate-watcher and purist or you are an show apologist, who will willingly eat everything up that GoT offers with a sidedish of blood and spectacle. I enjoy the good things, but I'm struggling with some of the (sometimes major) issues, the show has, in my opinion.

Nonetheless I'm very thankful for users, like yourself, who can just accept differing opionions on the same subject matter. Cheers!

Edited by Jay Merlan

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1 hour ago, Jay Merlan said:

But, why the hell did Jon charge at the whole Bolton force all by himself? Especially with the previous warning by Sansa? Why even write that scene, when the military leader will just ignore any warning and seem like a fool on the battlefield? In know, his brother just got killed, but why did he trie to join Rickon so quickly by senselessly dying moments after this?

I am using your quote but so many others have said this, consider it a generic use. Imagine - You have been told that bad guy is a player, good with tricks and bait.  You know this.  Bad guy has your little brother, thus the reason for the fight.  Bad guy, hundreds of feet from you, unties your little brother and tells him to run to you, kind of raising your hopes. Then, bad guy begins playing at shooting arrows at your little brother's back. Remember, you were told that BG was evil, sick, and good at games.  But finally BG  sends an arrow through your little brother's heart.  YOU

--calmly ride back to your place, leave your brother's dead body in the field, call for Charge and you and all your men all ride right over his body, mangling him beyond all recognition

OR

--you go insane with anger and charge the BG

I am going to argue that Jon is human and he did the human thing.  Sansa has lived with a monster and can imagine monstrous things far easier than Jon.  I cannot fault Jon for a perfectly human reaction to grief and disbelief and cruelty.  Jon is not yet the commander some of us want him to be, and I for one am not even sure that is what I hope for. 

PLUS we got that insane visual of all the horses charging Jon, while he stands there with his sword drawn.  Gorgeous image. 

Edited by lakin1013

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2 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

I am going to argue that Jon is human and he did the human thing.  Sansa has lived with a monster and can imagine monstrous things far easier than Jon.  I cannot fault Jon for a perfectly human reaction to grief and disbelief and cruelty.  Jon is not yet the commander some of us want him to be, and I for one am not even sure that is what I hope for. 

I get your drift and your argument is a valid one.

Insane anger is understandable, but even the most delusional Jon should know, that he can't plow trough all Bolton forces to reach and slay said Bad Guy. Also he could've picked up the body, rode back and then started a furious attack with actual winning chances. But those are details, and I'm certainly not a writer.

Jon has seen so much shit (e.g. Hardhome, Battle for Castle Black) and has proven a certain sensibilty for the right calls at the right time, even when his friends and allies died around him, in the most gruesome ways imaginable. I am totally okay with him being a lacking military commander, but this still stood out for me as incredibly stupid and mostly done for the cool visual of him facing the army alone.

 

12 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

I am using your quote but so many others have said this, consider it a generic use.

Fair enough.

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Why didn't Brienne and Pod make it back in time for episode 9? Didn't Sansa send her to the Blackfish while they marched on to Winterfell?

Was Ghost left behind at Castle Black?

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^Ghost went with them but due to time/budget constraints they couldn't include him

Quote

"[Ghost] was in there in spades originally, but it's also an incredibly time consuming and expensive character to bring to life," the episode's director Miguel Sapochnik told Business Insider on Monday. "Ultimately we had to choose between Wun-Wun and the direwolf, so the dog bit the dust."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/game-of-thrones-director-why-ghost-wasnt-in-battle-of-the-bastards-2016-6#

People often forget about the limited time and budget they have when they whine about these or those characters being killed off/merged/not incuded. It costs nothing to write them on paper, it costs a lot to bring them to life  on screen. Hence the showrunners have to compromise, have to cut things out.

Edited by Darksky

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14 hours ago, lakin1013 said:

PLUS we got that insane visual of all the horses charging Jon, while he stands there with his sword drawn.  Gorgeous image. 

Regardless of all other arguments, yes - this was a stunning visual, as was the two cavalries charging into each other around him.

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On 6/19/2016 at 10:36 PM, nara said:

Don't take this as nitpicky criticism but I have a few questions.

  • Why didn't Jon have Rickon carried back to Melisandre to attempt a revival?
  • Did I miss Ghost in the action?
  • Why did they camp in the same location where Ramsay was able to sneak up on Stannis's army and steal their horses?
  • How did the wood from the pyre that burned Shireen survive in a pile?
  • If Sansa had just been honest with Jon about Petyr and the Arryn forces, would Rickon be dead?  He would have definitely waited for them, and Ramsay would have seen the strong forces and "maybe" behaved differently.

 

jon wasnt exactly thrilled that Mel brought him back from the dead. while many fans (myself included) were singing HALLELUJAH!!!, jon was very confused and unhappy about it.  i think his confidence is still a bit shaken, so it makes sense that he wouldnt go around asking Mel/rhollor to revive all his fallen comrades

 

also... if sansa had told jon about the Vale, rickon mightve been in worse shoes, cuz ramsey would have to abuse him even more to have influence over that larger army

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On June 21, 2016 at 1:22 PM, lakin1013 said:

I am using your quote but so many others have said this, consider it a generic use. Imagine - You have been told that bad guy is a player, good with tricks and bait.  You know this.  Bad guy has your little brother, thus the reason for the fight.  Bad guy, hundreds of feet from you, unties your little brother and tells him to run to you, kind of raising your hopes. Then, bad guy begins playing at shooting arrows at your little brother's back. Remember, you were told that BG was evil, sick, and good at games.  But finally BG  sends an arrow through your little brother's heart.  YOU

--calmly ride back to your place, leave your brother's dead body in the field, call for Charge and you and all your men all ride right over his body, mangling him beyond all recognition

OR

--you go insane with anger and charge the BG

I am going to argue that Jon is human and he did the human thing.  Sansa has lived with a monster and can imagine monstrous things far easier than Jon.  I cannot fault Jon for a perfectly human reaction to grief and disbelief and cruelty.  Jon is not yet the commander some of us want him to be, and I for one am not even sure that is what I hope for. 

PLUS we got that insane visual of all the horses charging Jon, while he stands there with his sword drawn.  Gorgeous image. 

This was the entire point. It was a trap by Ramsay to draw Jon into range of his archers. His plan was to take out Jon off the bat. Jon charging towards the army is what saved his life. He ran in front of the barrage of arrows. If he stayed or turned and ran he would have been killed.

Then Ramsay had him anyway with the cavalry now that he was close enough and Jon was saved at the last possible second by his army catching up to him. Any hesitation and he was dead.

That's how close Ramsay was to winning the battle in the first five minutes. And that's how close Jon was to death.

It forwards my argument about how disappointing Jon was in this battle. He was out maneuvered. It took his sister to save him. 

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2 hours ago, Stannis Lives said:

It forwards my argument about how disappointing Jon was in this battle. He was out maneuvered. It took his sister to save him. 

This. I think we all knew the Vale was coming. But it would have been great to see Jon, Tormund and Davos working together and developing a brilliant strategy that actually shows the protagonist to be an intelligent commander for once. They still would have faced overwhelming odds, but it would have been so brilliant to see, and make the arrival of the Vale (and survival of all major characters) more of a reprieve and final blow at the end of the battle to break a close stalemate, and less of a complete deus ex machina.

That Jon faced overwhelming numerical odds, a large terrain advantage, and superior tactics, it's shocking they survived as long as they did. One of the major reasons is because the infantry took their time annihilating what was left.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm so sick of the good guys winning just because they are the good guys, and not because of any tangible advantage.

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On 20/06/2016 at 3:40 AM, Nymeria Pao said:

I can't wait till next week to see the Stark's banner on top of Winterfell during the opening credits!!!

So agree.  It's been bugging me so much seeing the flayed man there!

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On 20/06/2016 at 8:02 PM, Red Tiger said:

Because one fits the inner rules of the work of fiction, whereas the other doesnt

We know giants and dragons exist in GOT, that is consistent

We also know that wood burns in GOT, which makes the Shireen thing inconsistent within the work

It's quite possible Shireen dropped it just outside the main pyre, or even threw it out in an effort to save something she loved. Some bits of burning wood  could have fallen around it but it might not catch fire - there was a lot of snow about that day. 

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4 hours ago, Nymeria's pack said:

It's quite possible Shireen dropped it just outside the main pyre, or even threw it out in an effort to save something she loved. Some bits of burning wood  could have fallen around it but it might not catch fire - there was a lot of snow about that day. 

I remember her clutching it while she burned.  :(

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Also agree about the Stark emblem returning to Winterfell in the opening.   Think there'll be broken Stark, and Boltons emblems on the ground next to it?

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12 hours ago, Nymeria Pao said:

I remember her clutching it while she burned.  :(

That's interesting, because I remember her dropping it while she was still walking toward the pyre. When she realized that was where they were taking her, she stopped walking with them willingly and they had to grab her and force her along. As she began to struggle, she dropped the stag. That's why it wasn't burned, it was close to the pyre but not on the pyre. Too close for Davos to miss the reason that it was there though -- he knew that Shireen should never be that close to a pyre.

Now I feel like I need to watch again to make sure that's really what I saw.

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4 minutes ago, Sansa's Hairnet said:

...

Now I feel like I need to watch again to make sure that's really what I saw.

Let me know!  I don't really want to see it again.  :(

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2 hours ago, Nymeria Pao said:

Let me know!  I don't really want to see it again.  :(

Oh, I know... awful!! But I have the DVD's at home, so I'll try to look tonight and let you know.

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On 6/20/2016 at 0:38 AM, Arya Gendry said:

If any remaining Karstarks and Umbers bend the knee to their new liege lord/lady, they'll be pardoned. 

I'd definitely pardon the next Lord or Lady of House Umber; the Umbers were always loyal to the Starks, but they just had the misfortune of being ruled by the Smalljon, who hated his Stark-loyalist father.

As for the Karstarks, I wouldn't pardon Harald Karstark, but I wouldn't execute him so as not to violate the whole kinslaying taboo. I'd probably force him to take the black.

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Fresh made, these guys know how to make it;

 

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