[Poll] How would you rate episode 609?

[Not a kneeler]

Gave it a 10. I expected to hate this episode from all I heard about it. Could care less about how medieval warfare is conducted. I like naval battles, not land battles. Wow, was I wrong. We had strategy, we had arm to arm conflict, we had one aspect I learned by studying battles in the Pacific during WWII called the fog of war where things turn on unexpected moments. In battle things are never as clear cut as historians describe. Things go wrong, plans get messed up because the other side will make an unanticipated move.  It was thrilling. It was epic. I have to watch it again to pick up on the details I missed, but that won't be a laborious task.

I also sort of enjoyed Jon beating Ramsey to a pulp, and Ramsey met a fitting end.

I did get a sort of laugh when Jon didn't listen to Sansa and she turned out to be right. Ramsey had Jon's number until the end. Then Jon figured him out.

Meereen? Yay, Tyrion. Dany is truly unsettling, though.

[Lord Freypie]

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

I've given it a 4. As usual, I wish we could vote for separate categories because I'd like to vote 2 for the writing and 9 for the execution. We've got excellent production values and amazing acting, but at the service of a weak plot that neglects logic and build-ups for the sake of momentary shocks. On the surface it's cool and shiny, but as soon as you scratch a little bit there's nothing underneath.

Exactly that. The battles were well filmed, and acting is decent or better out of a few exceptions, but just every point in the scenario is cringeworthy. And I can't even say it's for shocks for this episode, as what most people imagined in the "outcome of the battle" thread just happened, with Rickon being killed, Jon going berserk and being played, Petyr playing Gandalf and saving the day, Davos finding the unburnt wooden toy, etc...

Not even speaking about the other battle, where they just managed to make all things look so easy for Daenerys there wasn't one instant of doubt.

Gave it a 4 too.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Lord Freypie

[Cragen]

9 hours ago, Frejac said:

I don't know how to rate this yet.

On the one hand, as an episode by itself, I want to give it a 10 because of the excitement and tension that I felt while watching it.

On the other, as an episode in the context of the rest of the season, I want to give it a 1 because we once again had Sansa saying they needed a bigger army without mentioning she had the Vale and then showing up as the savior with Littlefinger after letting so many of what was supposed to be her army die.

This was my feeling also. I think mistake and missed opportunities for storytelling and development from season 5 lower quality of hole season 6. They need to go against character development and logic to make plot points.

[Kira]

10

best episode this season 

[Darkstream]

5 minutes ago, GilletteMace said:

its not a straw man, i really do not care about it. it doesnt matter to me. timetravelling in GoT is a non issue to me.

I apologize, I did not mean to accuse you specifically of using this as a straw man argument, as you were only stated your views on the matter. I was merely trying to point out that this often is used in this manner.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Darkstream

[Arky06]

11 hours ago, aRanycsapat said:

What'd you think?

This is my first post -- so my opinion probably caries little weight.

 

That said, I loved the aesthetic of the episode and how it moved the stories in Meereen and the North forward. But I'd give it an 8 due to the plot holes surrounding the Knights of the Vale and the arrival of the Iron born. I'm also not thrilled with the fact that Jon is being portrayed as a piss poor commander.

 

 

[Arky06]

9 hours ago, Señor de la Tormenta said:

Jon Snow is despicted as a shitty commander, he did literraly all wrong, and fall in one trap after the other. 

 

Daenerys victories are boreing and smooth and simple as always.

 

When every well built or unlist interesting situation as the battle of WF, and Mereen is solved by plot gifts (Dragons, and a Vale Army), then, we must just accept the writting is awful

 

A 6. The fighting scenes were the only thing good.

 

I cant believe how many people are giving 10s. They just buy flashy lights.

Although I liked it better than you, I appreciate your sentiment and am similarly shocked at all of the 10's.

[Darkstream]

7 minutes ago, Arky06 said:

This is my first post -- so my opinion probably caries little weight.

 

That said, I loved the aesthetic of the episode and how it moved the stories in Meereen and the North forward. But I'd give it an 8 due to the plot holes surrounding the Knights of the Vale and the arrival of the Iron born. I'm also not thrilled with the fact that Jon is being portrayed as a piss poor commander.

 

 

Although yours is contrary to my own, I would argue that your opinion caries an equal weight as everybody else's.

Welcome to the forum.  

Edited June 20, 2016 by Darkstream

[lancerman]

26 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

See, I don't understand this argument. It's not about actually showing the travel, but having distances traveled being consistent with the passage of time that has occurred. If the writers wanted to have someone travel from Westeros to Slavers bay, they should have planned their story better and had them leaving on this journey several episodes earlier, allowing for at least a relatively plausible amount of time to have passed. They would not have to be featured in the subsequent episodes from their departure until they arrived at their destination. Frankly, this defense is an all to common straw man argument used to dismiss a valid criticism of the show.

They were never consistent. And the biggest thing is that it's literally making the show beholden to whatever travel time you work. 

 

I mean what you want, but the approach you are advocating for mandates that several of the storylines in the show are delayed when they really didn't need to be for the sake of travel. Which I don't really see how pushing back the rest of the Mereen story for next season really makes the show any better. 

[Darkstream]

9 minutes ago, lancerman said:

They were never consistent. And the biggest thing is that it's literally making the show beholden to whatever travel time you work. 

 

I mean what you want, but the approach you are advocating for mandates that several of the storylines in the show are delayed when they really didn't need to be for the sake of travel. Which I don't really see how pushing back the rest of the Mereen story for next season really makes the show any better. 

Right, but that's the whole point. There is no regard or consistency in the details at all. Just one of the many factors that influence my decision to give a low rating.

And it's not about delaying a story to fit a timeline. It's about planning ahead and writing a good story that doesn't conflict with the time line just for the purpose of checking off plot points without telling the story of how these moments came to be. That's the difference between being a good writer and producing scenes just for spectacle.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Darkstream

[Kytheros]

4 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Right, but that's the whole point. There is no regard or consistency in the details at all. Just one of the many factors that influence my decision to give a low rating.

And it's not about delaying a story to fit a timeline. It's about planning ahead and writing a good story that doesn't conflict with the time line just for the purpose of checking off plot points without telling the story of how these moments came to be. That's the difference between being a good writer and producing scenes just for spectacle.

To be fair to the show, travel times aren't something that GRRM put a lot of effort into making consistent in the books, either. So that particular problem didn't start with the show, although it's significantly more noticeable this season.

Even odds Dany's approaching or landing somewhere in Westeros or on Dragonstone by the end of episode 10.

[Ser Graymax]

Now that is how it is done, they really pulled out the stops on this one.  9.4 from me.

Just a few comments:

Jon not the greatest military leader and cant even follow his own orders and plan.  Everything depends on the Boltons charging them and what does Jon do?  Maybe he was showing them how to do it.

Ricon just cant catch a break now, can he.  Not the brightest tactic running in a straight line.  First and perhaps only one of the Stark children to die although Bran hasnt faired so well IMHO either.

Ramsey erred in the end.  Putting the arrow in Wun Wuns eye instead of taking the clear shot he had at Jon was his classic cruelty and arrogance in action.  Came back to bite him in the ass (and elsewhere). 

Ramseys death, while cruel and poetic justice, was too quick and easy for him.  He deserved to suffer more.  BTW, who placed him in the dogs quarters and opened their pen doors without being attacked?  just a nitpick.

Guess we now know the end of the Red Lady.  Davos is going to kill her for the sacrifice of Shireen.

Littlefinger again proves himself the master of manipulation with his timing of the armys arrival.  Jon is decimated and would be dead if not for him so he is now in a position of real power.

Dany was just, well, Dany.  Just cant swallow the love people have for both the character and the "actress".  To each his own I guess.  Who is going to end up on the iron throne?.  Looking more and more like her these days with all the houses again as banner men except the Boltons of course.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2016 by Ser Graymax

[Ingelheim]

9/10.

It was a fantastic episode, and Meeren was excellent for the first time in ages, but I think the battle wasn't actually THAT good.

There's like 10 minutes of  actual fighting. Jon kills a few guys, and they are surrounded right after that. It could have been done better. Still, amazing cinematography, soundtrack, and production values in general.

Also, my congratulations to Sophie Turner and Kit Harington. They killed it this year.

[SuperMario]

2 out of 10 for me.

The fact that the entire Vale army can get to that perfect point in the battle without being spotted beforehand makes the whole battle ridiculous. And D&D bragged afterward that it was the best battle ever put on screen.

[paulusar]

What a fantastic episode. I pity the poor fools who gave it low scores. They wouldn't know good TV if it bit them on the ass. If they are not fans and don't like the show they should stop watching and troll somewhere else.

[Darkstream]

38 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

To be fair to the show, travel times aren't something that GRRM put a lot of effort into making consistent in the books, either. So that particular problem didn't start with the show, although it's significantly more noticeable this season.

Even odds Dany's approaching or landing somewhere in Westeros or on Dragonstone by the end of episode 10.

To be fair to GRRM.

Although, and George has admitted as such, the books don't pay meticulous detail to distances and travel times, they are fairly consistent, and are not blatantly ignored like in the show. ASOIAF may have some errors or minor discrepancies, but Got purposely ignores these details and entails extreme discrepancies in the time line. d$d show a willful disregard for the time line in order to force scenes that they think would be cool and bad ass, IMHO, to the detriment of the story being told. 

Edited June 20, 2016 by Darkstream

[Criston of House Shapper]

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

See, I don't understand this argument. It's not about actually showing the travel, but having distances traveled being consistent with the passage of time that has occurred. If the writers wanted to have someone travel from Westeros to Slavers bay, they should have planned their story better and had them leaving on this journey several episodes earlier, allowing for at least a relatively plausible amount of time to have passed. They would not have to be featured in the subsequent episodes from their departure until they arrived at their destination. Frankly, this defense is an all to common straw man argument used to dismiss a valid criticism of the show.

This show has many problems. All of them are much bigger than people travelling at implausible speeds, which is why I'm able to ignore it compared to the stupid Sand Snakes or the Melisandre/Grey Worm bullshit. Suspension of disbelief went out of the window long ago for me, the dialogue isn't that strong anymore and there are so many scenes that are just completely pointless. So, all in all, I couldn't care less about whether so-and-so travelled a little too fast, that's just nitpicking to me, especially with an episode as awesome as this one on the table.

[Kytheros]

2 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

To be fair to GRRM.

Although, and George has admitted as such, the books don't pay meticulous detail to distances and travel times, they are fairly consistent, and are not blatantly ignored like in the show. ASOIAF may have some errors or minor discrepancies, but Got purposely ignores these details and entails extreme discrepancies in the time line. d$d show a willful disregard for the time line in order to force scenes that they think would be cool and bad ass, IMHO, to the detriment of the story being told. 

Oh, it's absolutely way worse on the show, and has only gotten more pronounced as they diverged from the books.

The books at least had the same route take the same amount of time, more or less. And even when GRRM is fudging the travel times, it's not as blatant.

[Darkstream]

2 minutes ago, Criston of House Shapper said:

This show has many problems. All of them are much bigger than people travelling at implausible speeds, which is why I'm able to ignore it compared to the stupid Sand Snakes or the Melisandre/Grey Worm bullshit. Suspension of disbelief went out of the window long ago for me, the dialogue isn't that strong anymore and there are so many scenes that are just completely pointless. So, all in all, I couldn't care less about whether so-and-so travelled a little too fast, that's just nitpicking to me, especially with an episode as awesome as this one on the table.

Well I do agree that in the long list of major problems I find with the show, this is a relatively minor one in comparison.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, Darkstream said:

If you are genuinely interested in an answer to that question, you are welcome to read a post of mine, about the twelfth one down in my history that fully explains why I still watch the show. It's the one in the Criticize thread that starts with "Ughhh"; 

I am & will read it as soon as I get the chance. 

3 hours ago, Kytheros said:

Well, I think it's hard to argue that the camera work wasn't extremely good.

The problem, in my opinion, is that however good it looked, that doesn't make up for the bad writing and plot induced stupidity. Admittedly, that's not been exclusive to this episode - it has, after all, been going on all season - but prolonging bad writing and stupidity doesn't make it any better, it just makes things worse, and a lot of it, especially in the North, came to a head in this episode.

But why watch it if it's so horrible? That's my question.