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[Poll] How would you rate episode 609?


How would you rate episode 609?  

698 members have voted

  1. 1. What's your rating from 1-10, with 10 being the highest/best

    • 1
      37
    • 2
      11
    • 3
      16
    • 4
      12
    • 5
      27
    • 6
      22
    • 7
      48
    • 8
      74
    • 9
      159
    • 10
      289


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17 minutes ago, Gannicus said:

I think that's all fair. 

D&D adjustments were mostly fantastic in the first couple seasons too. They now have a tougher job and unfortunately they've missed the mark a bit in the last two seasons. It feels like they are trying to appease the masses and have struggled to recreate the magic for some of the more seasoned watchers/readers.

And hey, at least they're meeting their deadlines. 600 hours of TV isn't easy to create.

I agree. But I think some of that loss of magic might be partly due to the growth in size and scale of the show, it does seem to lack the inter-personal moments of past seasons, such as the dialogue between Arya and Tywin when she was his cupbearer in Harrenhal. 

D&D still have their moments every now and then, such as choosing to show us Hardhome instead of us hearing of it by letter via Cotter Pyke.

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Just now, Tastes like Frey said:

I agree. But I think some of that loss of magic might be partly due to the growth in size and scale of the show, it does seem to lack the inter-personal moments of past seasons, such as the dialogue between Arya and Tywin when she was his cupbearer in Harrenhal. 

D&D still have their moments every now and then, such as choosing to show us Hardhome instead of us hearing of it by letter via Cotter Pyke.

Yep, and I'm not saying D&D are all bad.  But to me the best part about Hardhome was not the battle. It was what they did with the characters. The breathed life into Karsi and her death was tragic despite being in one episode. We hated Loboda the Thenn, then loved him when he told Jon to "Get the glass" as he took on the Other. That is the GOT I remember and love.

For some people the zombie battle is what made it, but not for me.

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5 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

Reasonable.

Here's how I see it:

For sure there’s some who frequent here that simply hate the show. I think it’s a mistake to confuse those few with those that have legitimate criticisms. I also think it’s unwise to label the later as solely book purists as well.

 

I love the books [excepting Feast and Dance, tepid there] and one only needs to read some of Tyrion’s bitter chapters from Dance to see where half of the dick jokes originated that many revile on the show revile. Myself, yes of course there are liberties taken in the adaption. Needs must, all that, and while some make sense many do not. Even so, a choice was made. Time to commit, do the work. Make it work.

 

The show has its moments but in the main, I don’t think it does. Work. Not anymore. So to go from generally loving the first 3 or 4 seasons and witness what it’s devolved to, it’s hard for some, I’d imagine, if only because I know it's hard for me.

 

Do I hate it? Sometimes. I’m not even going to bother excepting this mention, how much I detest what the showrunners have done with Sansa’s arc over the last two seasons, but if they were going to do anything to make the show easier [as everyone pretty much acknowledges they have to, medium to medium] why’d they choose to get bunged up over the same fucking Meereenese Knot that Martin did? Dany’s arc over two seasons spinning its wheels, why, because maybe Martin would meet a deadline and they’d have more original material to draw from or whatever else it might have been? Pfft.

This will sound dismissive, hell, maybe it is, but telling me that if I turn my mind off and just excuse all the inconsistencies in character will allow me to overlook the serious flaws of the same and give it top grades… that just doesn’t work for me. And in my opinion, it shouldn’t work for you [general you] 

Look, if not in word then at least the first four seasons more or less put paid to the spirit of the books. Ned’s tragic nobility, Cat’s fierce devotion to her children and the general pathos of the Starks’ plight, Tyrion, a man could om yet wonders, where did all that go? Thing is, I used to love the show. And that’s why I keep watching. Hoping for some return on that promise.

And maybe why I’ve become more vocal about its flaws. Because they’re not lessening.

 

They’re getting worse.

 

 

 

Those with genuine criticisms do unfortunately tend to be over-shadowed by those who blindly hate the show, at least in my experience. 

I'm right there with you in some regards, even thinking of the show's general treatment of the Direwolves gets me riled up. I truly wish they had omitted them from the show, instead of a lazy, half-assed attempt that results in both the literal and metaphorical butchering of them.

But I think the reason why the show is generally more favoured by the Unsullied, and why we book readers have such a bad reputation as elitists amongst them, is that we tend to get bogged down by the books in regards to the show. I know personally seeing the show as more of an interpretation than an adaptation has helped my enjoyment immensely, and as you said some things simply don't translate from medium to medium. 

Although yes, I have absolutely no idea why Dany's Mereen arc was one they chose to faithfully adapt. The Gods know they could have made some welcome changes there...

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3 minutes ago, Gannicus said:

Yep, and I'm not saying D&D are all bad.  But to me the best part about Hardhome was not the battle. It was what they did with the characters. The breathed life into Karsi and her death was tragic despite being in one episode. We hated Loboda the Thenn, then loved him when he told Jon to "Get the glass" as he took on the Other. That is the GOT I remember and love.

For some people the zombie battle is what made it, but not for me.

Honestly I just remember watching the moment where Jon looks up and sees the four Others on their horses and thinking that this episode would go down as one of my favourites regardless of what happened after. 

But you're absolutely right, our attatcment to its chatacters and the emotions their able to evoke through the treatment of these characters, whether it's over the course of seasons or a single episode is the crux of the show's strengths. 

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It seems like any epsiode with a big battle always gets very good ratings.

I gave this a 7. It was ok, but not great.

What bothered me:

- Wun Wun the giant was not used effectively. Come on. The Boltons have NEVER seen a giant, why not try to surprise and confuse them with him?

- Where is Ghost?

- The part of the battle where Jon Snow is buried under his men was a confusing mess.

- Daenerys surprising cocky idiots with her dragons for the 15th time in the serie.

-Theon and Yara teleported in Daenerys' throne room.

-The Knights of the Vale charge was a very pale imitation of the Rohirrim charge in Retun of the Kings. Too predictable.

- Lyanna Mormont had no lines before and after the battle.

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8 minutes ago, Tastes like Frey said:

But you're absolutely right, our attatcment to its chatacters and the emotions their able to evoke through the treatment of these characters, whether it's over the course of seasons or a single episode is the crux of the show's strengths. 

And precisely why someone like myself can get so angsty. Tyrion, the height of wit and arguably compassion, reduced to what. Bad jokes. Simpering before the stiff neck of the Mother of Dragons. Jon, resurrected with half of his intelligence and even less of his experience, standing slack jawed as Davos makes his cases for him. It's just... ugh. 

Come on guys. This shit ain't hard.

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46 minutes ago, Leto Atreides said:

It seems like any epsiode with a big battle always gets very good ratings.

I gave this a 7. It was ok, but not great.

What bothered me:

- Wun Wun the giant was not used effectively. Come on. The Boltons have NEVER seen a giant, why not try to surprise and confuse them with him?

- Where is Ghost?

- The part of the battle where Jon Snow is buried under his men was a confusing mess.

- Daenerys surprising cocky idiots with her dragons for the 15th time in the serie.

-Theon and Yara teleported in Daenerys' throne room.

-The Knights of the Vale charge was a very pale imitation of the Rohirrim charge in Retun of the Kings. Too predictable.

- Lyanna Mormont had no lines before and after the battle.

How do you surprise someone with a giant?  Being a giant doesn't really scream surprise.  Also, Jon Snow was never trained in use of giants on the battle field. 

 

I too wanted to see Ghost tear Ramsey from his horse.  The biggest disappointment on the show for me is the lack of and worthlessness of the direwolves.  Shaggy Dog went down off screen?!  They could have at least said something like he killed a dozen men capturing Rickon.

I believe it was an intentional confusing mess when Jon was almost crushed in the pile.

 

C'mon, rules of travel and logistics don't exist on this show.

 

What do you mean by too predictable?  If the shield wall is facing away from you it is a pretty good idea to charge their unprotected rear.

 

 

 

My biggest problem was Jon being an idiot yet again.  His sister begged him not to do what Ramsey wants him to do, and he is enticed to do just that.  Are they trying to make the case that Sansa will be a much better ruler?  At the very least it would be nice if Jon could at least be a good commander.  I kept hoping he had something up his sleeve, but no, he just charged in a mad rage.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Leto Atreides said:

It seems like any epsiode with a big battle always gets very good ratings.

I gave this a 7. It was ok, but not great.

What bothered me:

- Wun Wun the giant was not used effectively. Come on. The Boltons have NEVER seen a giant, why not try to surprise and confuse them with him?

- Where is Ghost?

- The part of the battle where Jon Snow is buried under his men was a confusing mess.

- Daenerys surprising cocky idiots with her dragons for the 15th time in the serie.

-Theon and Yara teleported in Daenerys' throne room.

-The Knights of the Vale charge was a very pale imitation of the Rohirrim charge in Retun of the Kings. Too predictable.

- Lyanna Mormont had no lines before and after the battle.

I agree with every one of these criticisms.  

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5 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

but the writing was flawless

You're kidding, right? The writing was horrible! The entire episode was extremely predictable, from the dragons burning ships, to Grey Worm killing those two guys, to the knights of the Vale coming to the rescue, and even to Rickon's death. It was poor writing at its best.

God damn it, I can't believe you guys. What the show did was completely against everything the story stands for. The show is giving the audience what it wants. But that's not what Martin's doing in the books. That's why Ned's dead. That's why Robb's dead. That's why many other characters are dead. 

Of course we all want the good guy to succeed, I wanted that too, but not with the help of things that just don't make sense. 

Explain this to me.

1. Why would Ramsay abandon the strategic advantage offered by a huge castle?

2. Why would the Umbers and the other Northern lords join Ramsay? He's a bastard. They all hate bastards. If they like bastards now, why not join Jon Snow?

3. How the heck did the Vale knights travel all the way to Winterfell without Ramsay knowing? And I'm letting out the part where characters are teleporting themselves all over the place, cause I'm a nice guy.

4. I get that Jon Snow is the Lord of Light's favorite, but that still does not explain why he would just start running all alone towards the enemy. 

5. 3,000 is not that big a number. Why would Ramsay bother?

6. Why is Sansa smiling at the end of the episode? She just lost her little brother. 

 

That's poor writing right there.

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2 hours ago, TheRiderThatMounts said:

You're kidding, right? The writing was horrible! The entire episode was extremely predictable, from the dragons burning ships, to Grey Worm killing those two guys, to the knights of the Vale coming to the rescue, and even to Rickon's death. It was poor writing at its best.

God damn it, I can't believe you guys. What the show did was completely against everything the story stands for. The show is giving the audience what it wants. But that's not what Martin's doing in the books. That's why Ned's dead. That's why Robb's dead. That's why many other characters are dead. 

Of course we all want the good guy to succeed, I wanted that too, but not with the help of things that just don't make sense. 

Explain this to me.

1. Why would Ramsay abandon the strategic advantage offered by a huge castle?

2. Why would the Umbers and the other Northern lords join Ramsay? He's a bastard. They all hate bastards. If they like bastards now, why not join Jon Snow?

3. How the heck did the Vale knights travel all the way to Winterfell without Ramsay knowing? And I'm letting out the part where characters are teleporting themselves all over the place, cause I'm a nice guy.

4. I get that Jon Snow is the Lord of Light's favorite, but that still does not explain why he would just start running all alone towards the enemy. 

5. 3,000 is not that big a number. Why would Ramsay bother?

6. Why is Sansa smiling at the end of the episode? She just lost her little brother. 

 

That's poor writing right there.

Firstly....separate book from show....2 different universes now, so it's much easier to enjoy them by accepting they are 2 separate entities rather than trying to use one to make sense of the other.

1. Because....as the show has already shown, Ramsey is an impulsive idiot with not much tactical know how.   He doesn't think long term.

2. It was explained through the series....Robb killed Karstark's dad and Smalljon was pissed at Jon for letting the Wildlings through the wall.  Plus Jon hadn't put himself up as a leader, he was still in the Nights Watch when they joined Ramsey so not a potential leader. 

3. No idea, he probably wasn't expecting an attack from them but this is a fair point

4. He was angry, grief stricken, desperate and enraged....did you not watch the moment that Rickon was shot down right in front of him!! It's not logical or sensible but it's human and emotional, just like Jon Snow.

5. Bother with what? The fight? Maybe to show off, to beat down anyone opposing him, because he's a narcissistic idiot, because he thinks he can etc....all character traits the show has established for him.

6. She's happy Ramsey just got eaten....maybe she's been crying up until that scene and she'll cry after....we don't know but for that one moment she was happy to watch Ramsey get eaten.....that's all (plus it means she won't have to kill herself which she threatened to do earlier in the show)

It was a 10 from me....I loved the raw emotion, the suffocating way the battle was shot and the horror of it all.  Nice to see if not glamourised.  The little character moments were great too, Sansa and Jon arguing, Dany and Yara connecting, Davos and Tormand chatting...enjoyable moments in quite an intense episode.

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9/10 

Battle of the Bastards was great, although Jon's tactics were horrible and the Winterfell part was not perfect, but I just wished they showed more Meereen, with Daenerys and her dragons destroying more ships and also the Dothraki smashing the Son's of the Harpy. 

Best of the season so far closely followed by Hold the Door. 

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4 hours ago, wolverine said:

How do you surprise someone with a giant?  Being a giant doesn't really scream surprise.  Also, Jon Snow was never trained in use of giants on the battle field. 

 

Well, for a start. You don't leave him in plain view with your foot soldiers as if he was just one of them. 

- You can hide him in the forest and have him charge the rear or flanks of the Bolton army in the middle of the fight

- You can build him a shield made of trees so he can move toward the enemy army fullly protected and not become a pincushion.

- You can make him carry en even bigger, wider shield so he can move close to the enemy with lots of men behind him.

- You can make him hurl rocks at the enemy from behind that shield, like a living catapult.

 

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9 / 10. Only a few minor niggles loses it a point.

Great to see the demise of Ramsey. Fitting end to him too.
Finally some real progress in Mereen, though it was a little rushed at the end.
The Battle was Epic, not quite as Epic as Blackwater though.
I did like the scene between Yara and Dany, some good back-and-forth.
The Rickon run was edge-of-the-seat stuff, so tense.

My minor woes this week were:
The Vale knights swooping in at the last minute was poor.
Wun Wun dying :(
I had hoped The Umbers would have betrayed Ramsey or the Manderley would turn up.

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Just now, Leto Atreides said:

Well, for a start. You don't leave him in plain view with your foot soldiers as if he was just one of them. 

- You can hide him in the forest and have him charge the rear or flanks of the Bolton army in the middle of the fight

- You can build him a shield made of trees so he can move toward the enemy army fullly protected and not become a pincushion.

- You can make him carry en even bigger, wider shield so he can move close to the enemy with lots of men behind him.

- You can make him hurl rocks at the enemy from behind that shield, like a living catapult.

I agree. they made really, really poor use of Wun Wun. At the very least patch some wooden armour together and put a log in his hand as a weapon.

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So yeah in full I'm giving it a 9.5 out of 10. It was near perfect, probably the most engrossing and beautiful bit of tv I've seen. The Hardhome director is just such a step up from everyone who's ever been involved in the show, and I especially mean Neil Marshall who I regard as a bit of a hack. There were so many beautiful and iconic images throughout this episode, everything about it simply looked better than normal, every shot was better, the way he set out the landscapes ( just look at Winterfell in the background, there is something so painterly about it all).

I'll start with the bad because i'm going to struggle to find anything I disliked:

- The weakest scene for me was the one with Yara, which was a little too smug and 'ooh aren't girls fantastic' for me, but I did like the way they drew out the parallels between Yara and Dany and set out that Dany has an idea of her idea of Westeros in the future. I also enjoyed Tyrions callback to the mad king earlier, because I think its clear that Dany is getting more an more Dragon like in her mentality. I don't think its been the best transition into that, but I'm glad she's there.

- Vale Knights turning up last minute was a bit too Helms Deep, but actually I'm not really bothered by it because the way they set up the tension and feeling of despair before this point was perfect.

The Good

- Firstly, the visuals, I am a sucker for something that looks beautiful, and this was by far the most magnificent looking episode of tv I've ever seen. I said the same about Hardhome which I think was like a medieval Saving Private Ryan x 10. The way the director captured the sense of being in the middle of a medieval battle is simply something I've not seen done that well before.  That sense of chaos, of the dirt, the blood, the sounds and the inability to really know whats going on was just brilliant. The guy can direct battles better than almost anyone. Even the Meereen stuff was well done as well. The shots of Drogon were a vast improvement to the crapshow last year when day rode off on her. 

- The sense of tension throughout was epic, it had the full gambit of emotions, brought me up and down and made me care about the outcome and want to cheer by the end. Yes some of it was a little predictable, but then I hunt for spoliers all the time, and had a good idea what was going to happen before I saw it, but that didn't change how much I enjoyed it. 

- I expected the episode to simply be one big battle and nothing else, but it had so many small moments that made a difference too. Seeing Davos finding the stag, the way he looked at Mel after that, Mel's conversation with Jon and her look at the end when her visions were proved right. The conversations between Jon and Sansa were full of emotion, I thought Kit has been fantastic since he came back, he really does have a more haunted feel to him, the acting has been a subtle change but its there.

- Even the bits I thought were predictable were good, having Rickon run towards Jon was just a heart wrenching moment because of how close they were to each other. That Jon KNEW what not to do against Ramsey but did it anyway because thats who he is, I loved that.

Just fantastic in total. 
 

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