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How would you rate episode 609?  

696 members have voted

  1. 1. What's your rating from 1-10, with 10 being the highest/best

    • 1
      37
    • 2
      11
    • 3
      16
    • 4
      12
    • 5
      27
    • 6
      22
    • 7
      48
    • 8
      73
    • 9
      159
    • 10
      288


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On 6/19/2016 at 9:19 PM, Señor de la Tormenta said:

. . . .A 6. The fighting scenes were the only thing good.

 

I cant believe how many people are giving 10s. They just buy flashy lights.

Full on Khalessi badassery. Triple dragon badassery. Dothraki charge badassery. Bolton badassery. Jun Jun badassery. Jon dumbassery then more dumbassery then finally badassery. Gangsta Sansa. Not to mention great little character moments like the Greyjoy, Lannister, Targaryn v2.0 alliance, Sansa giving Jon the very best advice anyone could (which beautifully set up the tension of the battle), and Davos Sherlocking what happened to Shereen. I almost gave the episode a 9/10, but after thinking about it I had to go 10/10 for all the reasons I listed above. 

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7 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

I understand the premise perfectly. What I dispute is what you'd submit as the conclusion of that data.

75% rating it 9-10 based on spectacle and the reveling in the death of a villain who was exaggerated so that people would revel in it, and purchase buy-in to the 'empowered' Sansa bullshit so cheaply? 

Excepting Jon and Ramsay's parley, the fiber of the dialogue in this episode was coarse to leathern at best. Character actions ranged from nonsensical [Sansa] to droll [Tyrion, Dany, Yara], and while the action was well filmed I won't ever buy that Ramsay suddenly acquired a drill disciplined group of armed and armored Sarissa-Men without hiring from across the Narrow Sea.  

The high-point of the Episode was Jon finally reawakening to life once more.

The rest, barring production value, was an unimaginative mummers farce parceled with wish fulfillment-- instead of quality characterization that would justify my rating it highly. 

Your rating is your rating and you are welcome to it, your opinion is like all opinions, it's not a fact and it's subjective.

Sansa bullshit? It's been six years she has been evolving on the show, 2 decades the books. I think her conversation with Jon was in character, she would probably feel more comfortable expressing herself to her half brother she has known since birth. She thought Ramsey would trick Jon and kill Rickon, it's not exactly a stretch. Many people came to the same conclusion. She wanted Ramsey dead, well a lot of people did. I did not mind the character personally, he was crazy but there have been worse people in Martins world. Worse in ours as well.

I would say the dialogue had been slipping, but not awful, and not coarse. Cliche maybe. Unfortunately I can point to a lot of cliche in TV and literature. 

You don't think the north has lock step legions? In the books it's the most common form of fighting in both Essos and Westeros. Unsullied are suppose to be the best, but the Lannisters have also used them, the north as well. Those are his fathers men, and Roose was the type to have his men well trained. Though the true test of a lockstep legion comes against either another lockstep legion or a cavalry charge. The Wildlings would hardly be a match.

I agree I thought Jon reawakening was the best scene.

http://oadara.tumblr.com/post/146202045786/ice-and-fire-jon-x-dany-i-mean-fire-is-love#notes

Sometimes D&D are not that great with Dialogue, and sometimes it's like following a patch work but I notice a lot of fans seem to miss some of the more subtle symbolism they do. I think they should get some credit for that, as it is common in Martins work.

Like that image or when Jon and Dany both beheaded someone, one for love and one for hate. Or Loras and Oliver and Jon and Olly. Loras a rose with his "birth"mark of Dorne and his squire Oliver who betrays him, and Jon a rose who may have been born in Dorne and his squire of a similar name who betrays him. It keeps line with some of the ways Martin drops clues, and runs symbolism and juxtaposes characters. Two well established literary devices.

You seem very angry, it's just a show, based off books that are just books. Anyway it's all good I think you have some valid criticisms and I think you missed some things as well, but you seem a little over critical of certain things, like Sansa. But that's just my opinion, and well you know what they say about those?

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7 hours ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

How did Jon not only survive but not even get hit by an arrow after falling for Ramsay's trap (pure dumb luck is not usually considered good storytelling)?

Benioff literally said in the ItE that Jon survived because "so much is just luck" :D

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5 hours ago, PetyrPunkinhead said:

Full on Khalessi badassery. Triple dragon badassery. Dothraki charge badassery. Bolton badassery. Jun Jun badassery. Jon dumbassery then more dumbassery then finally badassery. Gangsta Sansa. Not to mention great little character moments like the Greyjoy, Lannister, Targaryn v2.0 alliance, Sansa giving Jon the very best advice anyone could (which beautifully set up the tension of the battle), and Davos Sherlocking what happened to Shereen. I almost gave the episode a 9/10, but after thinking about it I had to go 10/10 for all the reasons I listed above. 

Yep. Thats kind of my point. Look at all the times you wrote "badass".

 

Thats is not what I consider good writting. All the drama, all the tension building, all the choices the characters made in battle, mistakes, new plans, and feats got nothing to do with the result. Writters chose the easy way out and use plot jockers to get themselves out of what could had been awsome.

I would had prefer to see a Jon Snow character that insted of being a "badass" would had been built as a leader of men. A tactician. With good and bad moves. Not a killing machine who did everything wrong and felt in every dumb ramsey trap. Because an educated viewer wont think high of Jon after last night. Where some see badassery many see a dumb kid who was only saved by the entire brand new army  who teleported from half the world away. We dont ask questions about how this happens because we are supposed to be dumb and throw 10s.

Also, someone who pays atention to the """story"""" wont see Sansa as a badass. Insted, as the """plot'''" was set, she got almost all his brothers army killed because of keeping information for herself. Wait for more troops! Which troops? Mmmm lol. 

 

The same goes for Mereen. Tyron had no plan. The cities defences didnt work. No men, no nothing. So they pulled it out with Daenerys burning it all. We dont even see a threat to dragons like spears, arrows, no thrill, just boreing "badassery".

 

I want characters who win and lose, enjoy and suffer because what they chose to do, how they overcame and react to shit.  sometimes at least. Not the freacking plot FF they always give us with a plot wild card.

 

But its flashy, and characters look badass.

 

 

 

Pd: RIP Ramsey Bolton. The best field commander in GOT. All his planning was brilliant. In line with his feat dispaching Stannis army with 20 good men.

 

Edited by Señor de la Tormenta

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1 hour ago, Señor de la Tormenta said:

Yep. Thats kind of my point. Look at all the times you wrote "badass".

 

Thats is not what I consider good writting. All the drama, all the tension building, all the choices the characters made in battle, mistakes, new plans, and feats got nothing to do with the result. Writters chose the easy way out and use plot jockers to get themselves out of what could had been awsome.

I would had prefer to see a Jon Snow character that insted of being a "badass" would had been built as a leader of men. A tactician. With good and bad moves. Not a killing machine who did everything wrong and felt in every dumb ramsey trap. Because an educated viewer wont think high of Jon after last night. Where some see badassery many see a dumb kid who was only saved by the entire brand new army  who teleported from half the world away. We dont ask questions about how this happens because we are supposed to be dumb and throw 10s.

Also, someone who pays atention to the """story"""" wont see Sansa as a badass. Insted, as the """plot'''" was set, she got almost all his brothers army killed because of keeping information for herself. Wait for more troops! Which troops? Mmmm lol. 

 

The same goes for Mereen. Tyron had no plan. The cities defences didnt work. No men, no nothing. So they pulled it out with Daenerys burning it all. We dont even see a threat to dragons like spears, arrows, no thrill, just boreing "badassery".

 

I want characters who win and lose, enjoy and suffer because what they chose to do, how they overcame and react to shit.  sometimes at least. Not the freacking plot FF they always give us with a plot wild card.

 

But its flashy, and characters look badass.

 

 

 

Pd: RIP Ramsey Bolton. The best field commander in GOT. All his planning was brilliant. In line with his feat dispaching Stannis army with 20 good men.

 

I don't even understand this post. Since when is people making mistakes causing them to be a badass? What is the problem with characters being flawed and screwing up? Isn't that better than the ludicrous idea that Saint Tyrion is something that exists or that Jon is Aragon or something. 

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17 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I don't even understand this post. Since when is people making mistakes causing them to be a badass? What is the problem with characters being flawed and screwing up? Isn't that better than the ludicrous idea that Saint Tyrion is something that exists or that Jon is Aragon or something. 

I'll help you out if you can't be bothered to check the conversation between SdlT and PP (but hey, it's easier to create straw men to attack I guess!).

SdlT is suggesting that people are falling for the misdirection of analogical shiny objects (as in "oooh, look at the shiny things. How awesome!") in judging this episode.

PP replied with a collection of "badass" elements as being the reason the episode was so good.

SdlT then pointed out that such analyses very much supports his point.

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10 for me. Was just fun to watch. Yes, predictable, but so what?

Aside from the great watching, I found some points interesting:

Dany would make a terrible leader, if she should ever sit on a throne. All about revenge and killing and burning cities. She is zero tactics and all emotions. Saved by the dragons. Would she be, where she is, without them? I doubt...

Jon is the same (runs in the family, hehe). All emotion, no strategy. Sansa did the planing, he just did the fighting. No leading of his army, no strategy, no thinking.

I guess both are still young and have not been educated to be a leader, but they make critical mistakes (also in the books). They did not grow into a leading role so far. Maybe Jon will learn from messing up at this battle... and at least Dany is listening to Tyrion. 

Tyrion on the other hand is the thinker, for me he is the only one currently able to actually rule a country. So for me, I hope A+J=T is true and he is sitting on the Iron Throne some day as his fathers son (More likely since Varys said multiple times, that he would never do). ideally he would be married to a clever and nice queen, who - oh wait - he was married to one!

Jon fighting himself back to life from this pile of death was great! He is basically still dead since his resurrection, no passion, no mission, no vision. His face always just waiting for the certain death in the fruitless war to come. But confronted with it, he somehow came back and fought himself back into life. Reborn? Interesting to see what he makes of it next episode.

I'm hoping for the Tower of Joy now for 610, but wonder how this will go on. So Bran knows, who Jon is. Does he then tell Jon? Will anybody believe this? Why should they? What would it change for Jon? And will we have to wait for season 7 to find out? (I' afraid, yes).

One more week.... and then please GRRM finish writing!

 

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4 hours ago, Señor de la Tormenta said:

I would had prefer to see a Jon Snow character that insted of being a "badass" would had been built as a leader of men. A tactician. With good and bad moves. Not a killing machine who did everything wrong and felt in every dumb ramsey trap. Because an educated viewer wont think high of Jon after last night. Where some see badassery many see a dumb kid who was only saved by the entire brand new army  who teleported from half the world away

I do not argue with your many good points but I think Jon is 'being built as a leader' as we watch.   He is still a teenager and at his sullen, self-pitying best, he was just a nobody, a bastard (I believe those are his own words). Sure he fought in battles, one in a huge walled castle, one against supernatural beings, and now directly against other human beings.  He will not make these same mistakes again.  I find this a rare view to a hero being made, instead of born or supernaturally gifted. This is a hero that doesn't even know he is a hero, at least not yet.  Yes, I give you the plot armor (armour?) but I like that we get to see his errors, like when even Tormund is saying exactly what I was - don't.  And I try to keep in mind that this is still a teenager, not a man grown.

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10 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

I do not argue with your many good points but I think Jon is 'being built as a leader' as we watch.   He is still a teenager and at his sullen, self-pitying best, he was just a nobody, a bastard (I believe those are his own words). Sure he fought in battles, one in a huge walled castle, one against supernatural beings, and now directly against other human beings.  He will not make these same mistakes again.  I find this a rare view to a hero being made, instead of born or supernaturally gifted. This is a hero that doesn't even know he is a hero, at least not yet.  Yes, I give you the plot armor (armour?) but I like that we get to see his errors, like when even Tormund is saying exactly what I was - don't.  And I try to keep in mind that this is still a teenager, not a man grown.

Totally agree with you.

at the wall, the defenses were already set, it was about being able to maintain discipline and lead an army; Jon was able to do that.

At hard home he was fighting dead men who had no tactic, all they did was try to overwhelm the defenses that were already in place. Again, Jon had to have discipline and be able to lead which he did.

Jon has never been the guy to actually have battle plans; he really had not been in that situation till now. He cleary knows what it takes to be a leader because he destroyed Ramsey by actually pointing it out.

Like you said, this is part of a learning curve because he was not born with a gift to lead. He was a squire of sorts, a bastard, low born, and he learned a lot,

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On 20/06/2016 at 3:11 AM, Baelor_the_Blessed said:

 It also might've been nicer if we had any idea the identity of those six people on the crosses. 

Could it be Mance and the spear wives. Even though the show didn't use them, the image was too good to waste for D&D, they don't have to explain many of their other odd decisions.

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On 20/06/2016 at 3:37 AM, Into the Weirwood said:

 

As a story, it was better than most of the other episodes this season, but somehow I was expecting more. I think some small changes would have made it better. For example, I'd have absolutely loved it if as Jon's punching Ramsay and he sees Sansa, she comes and finishes the job by killing him herself. To me it'd have a bigger impact than having the dogs kill him. It could have ended right there.

This

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3 hours ago, Lord Spark of House Spark said:

Could it be Mance and the spear wives. Even though the show didn't use them, the image was too good to waste for D&D, they don't have to explain many of their other odd decisions.

Very good guess. That makes a lot of sense.

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7.5-ish, because of certain issues with the North storyline (bear with me; I'll get to what I liked shortly):

1. As the thread title put it: "Forgetful North". I suppose the showrunners may have wanted to create suspense and thought giving the Starks too much Northern support would make their victory too easy; but they bent over much too far in the other direction. This has been a problem over the last two seasons. "Raving psychopath? Big deal."
2. Jon seemed a tad ineffectual as a leader, although I daresay he indirectly made the victory possible by befriending the Wildings before he died.
3. The Vale. I have no inherent problem with that (if not for point #1), and don't even mind that it was predictable; and at least it looked cool (not as cool as "STANNIS!!!", but still cool). My concern is with the implication that Sansa was wrong when she chewed out LF earlier, and may even end up begging for forgiveness, when in fact she was quite right: handing her over to Ramsay really was either stupid or hostile.
4.The direwolves are kind of off and on, no?

Now what I liked: Davos and Tormond (Davos in particular is good in pretty much every scene he's in); the direwolf flag being raised; Sansa's revenge was horribly satisfying; Wun Wun rules; poor Rickon. I also liked that the triumph was muuted; a realistic touch, that.

Now in Meereen, on the other hand, I liked almost everything. Especially perhaps the way the cocksure slavers were put in their place, and the Daenerys-Yara meeting. Even Tyrion's dialogue was decent.

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The battles were obviously a 10. But the episode as a whole. I don't know... a 7?

Things I didn't like.

Sansa earlier in the season said something like we have to help both our brother and retake Winterfell. That was what motivated Jon to do this in the first place. Now in this episode it suddenly became clear to her that he couldn't be saved? That is yet again bad writing unless she only played on Jon's emotions. And she did a lot of smiling in this episode which is weird considering her brother died. They didn't even discuss or try to get him released under the negotiations when they met Ramsay.

What about Ramsay killing his own men? I feel they just did it to remind us that he's evil while the Onion wouldn't fire upon his own men. Which is stupid considering how smart Ramsay is. And I also hated that Jon started the battle early and not giving a shit about the strategies he discussed with his own men, it felt out of character.

I also hated that Sansa didn't tell Jon about the Vale. Yeah, people like to defend this with that Ramsay would've retreated into Winterfell. But she took a gamble on his brothers life. And Jon wouldn't have started the battle prematurely.

I also didn't like how predictable it was with the Vale saving the day like in LOTR. I read something on the internet and I would've preferred if Smalljon Umber pretended the entire time and he started killing off Bolton soldiers from behind.

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Fuck yeah!  I give this episode an 11 out of 10.  They kicked it up a notch Spinal Tap-style. This was by far the most metal episode in the entire series.

I felt bad for Rickon, but come on, his character was unfortunately neither compelling nor fleshed out enough to really make me miss him. He did serve as the catalyst to turn Jon into First Blood Rambo Fucking Snow, who gave Ramsay Bolton exactly what everyone was hoping he'd receive from the get-go.

You can definitely see an homage to the Lord of the Rings here. Just when things looked lost, and they're completely surrounded in a ring of death, the eagles (i.e. the Arryn's) arrived to save the day. I can see them and the soon-to-be-arriving Tully force joining up and hopefully heading north to the real battle.

The battle at Mereen was also freakin' sweet. I mean, if they had stopped the episode after just that, it would have been a pretty good Game of Thrones show, but adding an even better battle scene in the North on top? Awesome.

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On 6/20/2016 at 4:19 AM, Señor de la Tormenta said:

Jon Snow is despicted as a shitty commander, he did litealy all wrong, and fall in one trap after the other. 

 

Daenerys victories are boreing and simple as always.

 

When every well built, interesting situation as the battle of WF, and Mereen is solved by plot gifts (Dragons, and a Vale Army), then, we must just accept the writting is awful

 

A 6. The fighting scenes were the only thing good.

 

I cant believe how many people are giving 10s. They just buy flashy lights.

Dude, it's a fantasy show about dragons, ice zombies, and medieval battles with a dash of political intrigue. It's one flashy light after another, which is why you watch Game of Thrones to escape from the real world instead of reading Foreign Policy to get mired in it. If you're looking for something else out of GOT, you're in the wrong place.

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16 minutes ago, Talking Hodor said:

Dude, it's a fantasy show about dragons, ice zombies, and medieval battles with a dash of political intrigue. It's one flashy light after another, which is why you watch Game of Thrones to escape from the real world instead of reading Foreign Policy to get mired in it. If you're looking for something else out of GOT, you're in the wrong place.

I thought it's supposed to be a drama show focused on political intrigue with a dash of dragons, ice zombies and battles.

After all it is called "Game of Thrones" not "Dragons, Zombies and Swordfights".

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1 hour ago, Talking Hodor said:

Dude, it's a fantasy show about dragons, ice zombies, and medieval battles with a dash of political intrigue. It's one flashy light after another, which is why you watch Game of Thrones to escape from the real world instead of reading Foreign Policy to get mired in it. If you're looking for something else out of GOT, you're in the wrong place.

At least you have the honesty to admit what you love about Got. I can respect that, and is why I would consider your rating to be fair and valid. Unlike many who have rated this episode a ten (or eleven in your case) you are not claiming it to be some flawlessly written masterpiece.

What I do take issue with is your statement that "If you're looking for something else out of GOT, you're in the wrong place". Although now true, that is the problem with this show. Got used to be, and is supposed to be an adaption of ASOIAF, which is any thing but "one flashy light after another". Don't get me wrong, the books have their share of flashy lights, it's just that those lights shine because of the meticulous and intricate circuitry laid out by GRRM to power them. This is sorely missing in the show of late. The reason I loved Got in the early seasons is because back then, this show wasn't the "wrong place if you're looking for something else." d$d have lost the desire to adapt this amazing story, or to even tell a coherent and meaningful story at all anymore. It's all flashy lights with no means to make them shine. Once the surge of energy created by the buzz and shock factor that Got currently benefits from, these flashy lights will fade into a cold and silent dark.

Edited by Darkstream

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1 hour ago, Talking Hodor said:

Dude, it's a fantasy show about dragons, ice zombies, and medieval battles with a dash of political intrigue. It's one flashy light after another, which is why you watch Game of Thrones to escape from the real world instead of reading Foreign Policy to get mired in it. If you're looking for something else out of GOT, you're in the wrong place.

I'm looking for a show that's both gripping and makes sense, like GoT in the early series. If GoT had started like it is now, it would have been cancelled long ago.

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2 hours ago, Rhollo said:

I thought it's supposed to be a drama show focused on political intrigue with a dash of dragons, ice zombies and battles.

After all it is called "Game of Thrones" not "Dragons, Zombies and Swordfights".

I prefer: Badass Dragons, Badass zombies, and Badass swordfights!

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