(SPOILERS) Criticise Without Reprecussion

[Follmann]

I suppose I should be glad Manderly didn't show up. Instead of a "North Remembers" speech, he'd probably be like "lol you think I'm fat? y'all should see my cock then".

[Morgain]

13 hours ago, Forlong the Fat said:

"and with their shields closely locked in front of them, they formed an impenetrable phalanx." 

Trokelowe, describing the battle of Bannockburn

The lairds of Scotland had an education in the classics, Greek and roman literature, especially focused on military texts.

 

14 hours ago, Trinket2 said:

If you think this is feminism you're delusional. This is just utter crap and poor writing, the writers have no idea what feminism is.

With you.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

6 minutes ago, Follmann said:

I suppose I should be glad Manderly didn't show up. Instead of a "North Remembers" speech, he'd probably be like "lol you think I'm fat? y'all should see my cock then".

 

Oh yeah, you're a hundred percent right. Tormund would be bragging about his member to Davos, and Manderly would wander in and proclaim, "you know what they say, the fatter the hock, the meatier the...." well, something like that. Davos and Tormund might throw up their hands and look at the screen and say, "Lord Manderly!" So we knew who he was.

[Steelegrave]

18 hours ago, King Louis II (KLII) said:

FREAKING FKING AWESOME. other than the vale knights saving the day, AWESOME. Ramsey death was perfect. First time I feel the justice was done.

I am a very strong critic when they do things badly, but this episode was freaking awesome. Congrats D&D

 

Way wrong forum.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

One of the saddest things for me? I'm beginning to wonder if these bad episodes ARE revealing a lot about the books. Such as: Stannis loses the battle for the North and comes back to Winterfell with his broken forces. He has Shireen burned for help. Davos is pissed. Jon is ressurected. Somehow Jon is allowed to kill Stannis for the burning, Rickon has a new ragtag army rallied around him and Jon joins his wildings to it. Their inferior, outmatched force assault Winterfell, and they are saved by the Knights of Vale led by Sansa and Littlefinger.

I mean it's all kind of there.

Edit: At least Sansa's not a monster in that scenario, and maybe the Blackfish comes with her.

[Steelegrave]

18 hours ago, Forlong the Fat said:

Ok. The show portrays a battle consistent with historic reports of a a similar battle. Not good enough for you because you think there weren't enough people in your estimation.

 

Any reasonable person knows where your head is. 

Apparently the meaning of "without repercussion" eludes you. 

[Xcorpyo001]

I’m starting to believe that most of the GoT reviewers I’m watching are being paid by HBO to say only positive things about the show. No one can be this blind.

I will not say much about Slaver’s Bay, it’s not even worth my time. They made only Bran a warg in the show, although most(if not all) Stark kids have this power, but made Dany one? Or they gave her some sort of psychic powers to control her dragons, although no other Targ before her could do such a thing?!? I think the director thought he was filming an X-Men scene. And she doesn’t even need a saddle to mount her dragon and not fall off from his back. Are we to assume that Drogon, whose head and neck are an amalgamation of spikes and ridges, has a built in leather saddle that Dany can occupy during her flight? No more unruly dragons, no saddles and or harness, no dragon training, no riders needed for the other dragons(what were those idiots during the Dance of Dragons war thinking when looking for riders for their extra dragons, they could just bring them alongside their own dragons). WTF?

Also, when Dany and notAsha clasped hands, I was half expecting one to shank the other or at least one should try to insert their fingers in the other’s ass, then smell it and…well, you know the rest. No continuity whatsoever.

And the North. Sansa is bitching about everything, and of course Jon has to become a suicidal moron so Sansa can have a “told you so” moment later. Who cares about his character development? Kill the child and let the man be born. Lol, better charge by yourself against a 6000 strong army to save a kid that has no chance of surviving. Of course, he could have sent Ghost to attack Ramsay and keep him busy while he was trying  to save Rickon, Or command Wun Wun to join him and act as a wall against enemy arrows, or tel Mel to do some hocus pocus to momentarily blind Ramsay, or maybe Rickon could just realise he’s dead anyway, be a headstrong Stark and die like a man, without running, or maybe strafe left or right during his run, or maybe try to fight Ramsay after he was released, or any other 1000 things. It would have been better if Ramsay would have made a mistake and look like a fool in front of his men, but nooo, a villain’s plan never fails, except when faced with a superior villain, aka LF.

I still don’t understand how Sansa is able to know so much about Ramsay’s battle tactics from his sexual habits? After all, it’s not like she was invited to the Bolton battle strategy sessions. And her complaining doesn’t make any sense. ‘You don’t listen to me?’ line is silly. She is pissed by the fact Jon doesn’t trust her enough to ask her opinion, when she’s holding back information as well, precisely because she doesn’t trust him, even if he never once show her any cause for concern. Well, she could have spoken, if she wanted to. I don’t think Jon told her to keep quiet during their battle panning talks. And when Jon says that he is listening to her, she tells him that she has nothing to say. Just that Ramsay is a trickster. Some examples could help, Sansa. As the information about the Vale troops could help as well. Even she wasn’t sure about it’s arrival, they could at least try to see what’s what.

If we had a subtitle with Ramsay’s thoughts when he saw the Vale troops, it would have been something like “So this is how the Starks felt like for the last six seasons. This really sucks. I almost pity them. Almost.”

But back on track. Sansa promised Jon the Blackfish and the Tully army. You know the Blackfish, her mother’s brother, as stated in her letter send to him. Honestly, adding the small direwolf head, it’s like the prop department joined D&D in having no more fucks to give about the show continuity. The show mentions the Manderlys several times. Missing. GNC. Missing. The Vale army camped at MC(Reed’s territory) for weeks/months. Howland Reed still missing. Brienne missing from the fight. Remember when Mel told Stannis that if she was in the battle at BWB, he would have won? Well, Jon didn’t said she couldn’t participate. And yet she does nothing. Dany can use a CGI Drogon as a pedestal to give a speech to the dothraki, but Jon can’t count on Ghost’s help in a life and death battle?

And in the parts after the show, when they said Jon acted like a Stark when he fell for such a obvious trap, one that even Sansa could have seen coming a mile away. WRONG. Ned never lost a battle, neither during the rebellion against the Targs, nor later during the Greyjoy rebellion.  Robb not only matched him, but obliterated any enemy in every military encounter. And he had Grey Wind at his side in every battle. He crushed Jaime’s siege at RR, or as Bronn would put it, fucked him up his ass so hard he couldn’t sit for months after. He then proceeded to outsmart Tywin fraking Lannister, by sacrificing some of his forces to win a decisive battle later. Only Edmure’s attack saved Tywin for a certain ultimate defeat. Later, he destroys a second Lannister army on their own turf, conquers some castles and mines in the Westerlands, and was ready to march on Lannisport itself, but was called back for the wedding. And Jon learned from the same guys Robb learned from. Granted, Robb could simply be a genius strategist, but Jon should not be a slouch either.

I might skip over Ghost’s absence, hell, I might even thank them for it, at least he’s still alive. But why nerf Wun Wun so much if they decided to use him in battle. Giants could use weapons several seasons ago. Remember that giant that could fire a bow and kill a guy on top of the Wall(with the angle, the distance should be around 800-1000 feet?) Neither does Wun Wun. So the king of the fraking giants has no weapon or a mammoth he can ride? But I guess that would mean he can stand a chance of winning or at least break the lines if he had a weapon, and it has to be a certain defeat in order for LF to save the day. And remember Jon teaching everybody to fight, and putting so much importance on the shields and how they are used in battle? Neither does he, nor the rest of his troops. No matter, his plot armour will protect him anyway. Grrr.

And the shield wall. O look, a slow moving enemy phalanx trying to surround us. I guess we have to stay around doing nothing until they do that, it’s only sporting to do so. And some idiots thinking they could stop Wun Wun with 3 spears pointed at him. If at least they didn’t give him a weapon, why not have him use all those bodies in that pile next to him as projectiles against the shield wall, making openings the wildlings or himself  could then exploit.

Ramsay has such a good aim that he can kill a running Rickon with a arrow through the heart. But he chooses not to kill Jon, a stationary target 1 meter away from Rickon’s dead body because…reasons.

And Wun Wun’s death. They enter the castle, Wun Wun is riddled with arrows and is about to die. Jon is on one of his side, Thormund on the other. Ramsay can kill any of them, but chooses to kill an already dying giant and not Jon because reasons. And no The last of the Giants song in the end credits. Remember when you still cared about that sort of stuff, D&D? That would have been an epic ending for this episode.

Ramsay then start shooting arrows at Jon, but not one of Jon’s archers decided that it should be a good idea to shoot back, because Ramsay decided he would fight Jon one on one. With a bow. Because reasons. At least Jon remembered that shields exist in this universe, so that’s that.

It takes Wun Wun a minute to destroy the gate, another minute to die, then a minute for Jon to kick Ramsay’s ass. But he stops because he sees Sansa looking at him. Since when is she part of the party charging the walls of Winterfell? No one in their right minds will let her enter WF until the castle would be secured and any all enemies accounted for.

Davos finds a wooden horse inside the remains of a huge pyre. So that off screen chat he and Mel had about Shireen’s fate the show apologists try to force feed us every time something doesn’t make sense didn’t happened huh? What a surprise! Not.The next morning they are ready to fight outside the walls of WF. So Stannis burned Shireen just so his troops could advance the last 300 meters?!? Hell, if he would have built a trebuchet in the middle of his camp, the projectiles fired by it could have reached the damn walls. WTF?

Jon’s actor said in the part after the episode that he stopped from killing Ramsay, defenceless at the time, because he didn’t want Sansa(who shouldn’t even be there at that point in time) to see him turn into a monster. Later, Sansa kills a defenceless man and leaves with a smirk because empowerment and BAB. Hmmm. I understand that she couldn’t hold hope that Rickon might survive, but she could at least show some pain for his loss and morn his passing. But she’s too damn busy getting her revenge. Sansa smirks while she watches Ramsay being devoured by his own men, but doesn’t kill LF and get control(or at least help from) of the Vale troops because reasons.  

And the scene with Ramsay entering WF and ordering his soldiers to close the gate. Everything behind him, trees, buildings, ground, are covered in snow. But 500 meters further, where the battle happened, we have green grass as long as the eye can see. These seasons in Westeros are really weird. Remember how the land looked like when Sansa escaped? With snow all around? Why is Jon afraid of snow storms, it seems all the snow is melting at a rapid pace. Is as if the winter not only came(during Stannis’ march), but is already over, and spring is on it’s way.

I think that it could be a way to make Sansa seem more empowered, get her revenge, and make Jon seem more capable and maintain his character development at the same time. But D&D could not be bothered to try and find a way to do it. So they fucked every single character in the north, all this starting from decision to have Sansa in the North, and get rid of Stannis so show Jon and show Fandra could be seen doing something. Gah, this is not a butterfly flapping his wings, this is a dinosaur stampede destroying everything in its path.

Thank god that we still have the book version. Even if the book series is never completed, I would rather write my own fanfic than have this show as a canon ending to this epic saga.

[Xcorpyo001]

6 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

One of the saddest things for me? I'm beginning to wonder if these bad episodes ARE revealing a lot about the books. Such as: Stannis loses the battle for the North and comes back to Winterfell with his broken forces. He has Shireen burned for help. Davos is pissed. Jon is ressurected. Somehow Jon is allowed to kill Stannis for the burning, Rickon has a new ragtag army rallied around him and Jon joins his wildings to it. Their inferior, outmatched force assault Winterfell, and they are saved by the Knights of Vale led by Sansa and Littlefinger.

I mean it's all kind of there.

Edit: At least Sansa's not a monster in that scenario, and maybe the Blackfish comes with her.

 

Shireen, her mother, Mel and some of Stannis' troops are back at the Wall. He can't burn her even if he wants to. But from what I remember, he is more like "There will be no more burnings in this camp. Pray harder!". She will probably burn, but he won't be around to see or stop it.

[Stag_legion]

53 minutes ago, WingedShadow said:

Real swords aren't stiff.

 

I think she's considering it, or at least allowing them to be pseudo-independent.

The Iron Islands are not one of the Seven Kingdoms. They are part of the remnants of one of them though. Their kingdom was destroyed when Aegon razed Harrenhal.

Allowing the Iron Islands to cede would be the stupidest thing any would be king/queen of westeros would do. for starters an independent Iron islands is much more likely to continue to raid than one who is a part of the seven kingdoms. As a part of the seven kingdoms Iron Islands can at least trade with the rest of the kingdom with fishing  and trading pearls etc, and the mainland would ship over what else the islands lack as part of the King/queens responsibility of seeing to the needs of its subjects. As an independent kingdom though there is not much the Iron islands can offer the rest of the realm to encourage trade and the Islands will be poorer as a result making raids more necessary.

 

 

This is definitely not where the books are going with the Iron Islands. In the books there is a clear sense that the Iron Islands will eventually be better integrated into the rest of the realm and might actually end up adopting mainland customs/religion, TWOW latest Ironborn chapter further supports the possibility that the Droned God religion might be losing its influence in the near future. Much like how vikings adopted more mainland european customs/religion after a period of viking raiding, once mainland Europe became more organized military and the economic incentive for raiding was no longer there.

[Stag_legion]

35 minutes ago, Follmann said:

I suppose I should be glad Manderly didn't show up. Instead of a "North Remembers" speech, he'd probably be like "lol you think I'm fat? y'all should see my cock then".

You might have just predicted the next episode

[Steelegrave]

17 hours ago, storm.131 said:

I loved the episode.  My only complaint was Davos finding the singed stag.  Come on, after all that time, the strong winds of the north, the snows, etc, the remains of the pyre were still there as if it happened a week ago???

What snows?

[Stag_legion]

25 minutes ago, Xcorpyo001 said:

 

Shireen, her mother, Mel and some of Stannis' troops are back at the Wall. He can't burn her even if he wants to. But from what I remember, he is more like "There will be no more burnings in this camp. Pray harder!". She will probably burn, but he won't be around to see or stop it.

Agreed. It would not be very believable for stannis to make such drastic shift on shireen, hence why I trust that GRRM won't go that way. In fact I believe GRRM put in "pray harder" and "place my daughter on the throne" to emphasize the point that Stannis would not consent to Shireen's sacrifice if he were at the wall and it is a decision Melisandre will make without stannis' approval. The theme here will be that Stannis putting in  with melisandre will have a terrible unforeseen consequence for him, rather than stannis being a religious fanatic that is willing to kill his own Heir.

[Low Sparrow]

I must have seen the Battle of Blackwater episode 3 times now. The Battle at Hardhome had some silliness in it but it was rewatchable. This battle was just plain old stupid. Hard to get through once.

It was OK for a bit. The fog of war feature was on point and somewhat realistic. Then it was reduced to Moulin Rouge with about one cut every half a second. The cartoonish pile of bodies ala Zach's 300 forming for no reason was too much. At this point they should have just had Sansa standing on top of the mound with her tits out, Stannis's dayglo sword in one hand and a pair of sewing needles in the other, woooing it up.

What a waste of Wun Wun, bye bye last giant, sorry about the stupidity of all those around you, especially the show runners. You took up from the CGI budget, so you had to go pointlessly.

 

[joaozinm]

Remember when our strongest concerns about the show were if LF had to say: "only cat" or "your sister".   :| we're lost.

[Tyche]

1 hour ago, adamr said:

Behold: Jon's floppy sword.

http://imgur.com/w54N0Se

What the actual... Darn, you can bet on those Valyrian swords to be flexible

[Low Sparrow]

17 hours ago, Mikeygigs said:

Decent point, but it fails to answer how the hell Ramsay missed the foreign Vale army at Moat Cailin? Considering he's fighting Sansa, shouldn't he have been suspicious of it? Wouldn't that be a huge problem if Moat Cailin was held by foreign armies? Wasn't Moat Cailin garrisoned by Bolton men in season 5? Scouts/Ravens/routed men from Moat Cailin didn't arrive at Winterfell to tell Ramsay that there was an army 20,000 strong there? How did Littlefinger pass all that terrain from Moat Cailin to outside Winterfell and have his movements be concealed?

None of those questions can be answered. Instead, the show expects that the audience just accept the scene as is and forgive the logical inconsistencies. That is the major flaw here and why I do not accept any outside explanations of the scene.

There are no explanations. Well, there is one. It would seem that intelligence is a disability that prevents one from enjoying the show.

They screwed up with the fake Arya and Sandra switcharoo, thus requiring that Roose/Ramsay would arm Moat Calin to the teeth to prevent a southern incursion. The Knights of the Vale should have encountered this and become moot at best, and gatorbait at worst.

In a prior season, the decided to show a way around Moat Cailin for Gangsta Brienne, so put a mountain in front of it. Thus, even a semi-intelligent viewer might wonder, what's the point of building a fort/outpost at the foot of a mountain, when a hidden army could be amassed on the other side of it.

Bashing you head against the wall until you pass out might be a short term solution to enjoying the past episode. Another, less painful but surely effective means might be to become an opiate pillhead.

[LazyBazooka]

The episode was well-directed, but as expected, viewers and critics alike are falling into the trap of well-directed = well-written. It's being hailed as the best hour in television history, and by extension everyone is predictably lauding GoT as a TV masterpiece based on the spectacle of the episode alone, forgetting about all the poor writing that this season has brought. As anticipated, the spectacle was all people needed to be satisfied, and were so blinded by it that they were unable to see the continuing plot holes and bad writing, such as:

-Dany telling Yara "no more pillaging and raping" and yet she has a massive army of savage reavers and rapers (the Dothraki) that she'll be taking to Westeros; this creates a problem for the narrative - either the Dothraki will go a mass-raping spree throughout the Seven Kingdoms, destroying cities and raping/killing thousands of innocents because that's fundamental to their culture (which most likely won't happen, as it would make Dany look bad and she's essentially Jesus with teats on the show) or once the Dothraki screamers land in Westeros they won't rape at all and will be perfectly well-behaved, suddenly abandoning their culture just because Dany told them to (and probably because D&D won't want to risk being criticised by #notallmuslims), making her even more infallible. Also, Yara gives up the Ironborn culture of reaving because Dany told her to just like that. The Ironborn won't be happy about that, but I'm betting this civil unrest will be overlooked by D&D.

-The very poor, hamfisted telegraphing of wildfire. It's like D&D don't believe their audience is smart enough to remember Jaime's bathtub confession. Thanks for undermining Jaime's arc even further by having him tell Tyrion about why he killed Aerys too, by the way.

-Every single Dany scene is the exact same thing.

-Sansa not telling Jon about her letter to Littlefinger, that the Vale army will be coming to help and that they should wait until the massive reinforcements arrive before marching - it would've changed the entire battle and saved thousands of lives, and they might've even saved Rickon (who, by the way, was the rightful King in the North, but nobody besides Jon seemed to care at all about him - you call say 'The North Remembers' all you like, but its just not true in the show: none of the Northern houses seem to care about the Red Wedding, none of them joined Stannis when he marched on Winterfell to get revenge on the Boltons who betrayed Robb and orchestrated the RW, none of them seem to want to mobilise against the Boltons when Rickon is being held captive - heck, no one cared when Sansa married Ramsay, which was supposed to be the whole point of the marriage)

-Rickon (who is supposed to be 11 years old at this point but is as tall as Ramsay, making his "do you like games, little man?" line hilarious) running in a straight line. This was just really stupid. And Jon going straight for the emotional warrior cliche after his death. 

-The battle itself was cool, until I saw the massive pile of bodies that just appeared out of nowhere so that Boltons could corner them. There would be plenty of bodies, but not piled up like that, they were on a massive open field so they would likely be spread out. And then I saw that Wun Wun didn't have a weapon. Guys, you have a massive ****ing giant with you, why not use him as artillery by having him hurl huge rocks at the enemy from a distance? Or how about giving him a tree? He could've easily crushed the Bolton shield wall if he was armed...but no, the heroes have to act stupid so that the villains can slaughter them, so that the audience is forced into a "oh-no-all-hope-is-lost" corner just before the insanely Vale ex machina swoops in. 

-Sansa running back to the man who betrayed Ned and sold her to her rapist in order to win (and looking proud of herself for it too). 

-Ramsay choosing to shoot Wun Wun (who was already dying) when Jon was standing right next to him. Jon has plot armour (in a show which thrives off claiming that "anyone can die" - the narrative has lost all of the tension that was present in earlier seasons, the very tension that hooked viewers and made people tune in in the first place) and Ramsay has to remind the audience that he's evil just before his death - again, D&D thinking that their audience isn't smart enough to know that Ramsay is the bad guy. 

-Sansa somehow knowing that Ramsay said his dogs hadn't been fed for like a week, even though she left before he said that, and Jon isn't likely to have told her this because its not really the sort of thing you remember (and he isn't very bright).

-We can't get even ONE shot of Ghost tearing up some Boltons during the battle (where the hell is he? D&D really don't understand that the direwolves are supposed to be important instead of just oversized pets), but we CAN get hundreds of shots of CGI dragons (which are much harder to render and which Dany can suddenly fully control - lol remember when that was a big plot point a season or two ago? Dany is just sooo perfect you guys!) and CGI dogs to eat Ramsay! 

-Sansa 'deadpaningly' watching Ramsay get torn apart by his hounds and then walking with a smirk, acting exactly Ramsay, her abuser and rapist. BRAVO D&D.

Overall, the show doesn't really get A Song of Ice and Fire at all. The episode relished in the thought that violence and revenge is cool, empowering and justified. Instead of Ramsay being executed in the Stark way, he is fed to his hounds for 'poetic justice' (a wish fulfilment that the audience interprets as good writing, as well as D&D). As an audience, we are never called upon to question the use of violence, to question if revenge is really worth it like the source material does. The characters don't either - when the Hound's mentor who was opposed to violence is killed, he goes off on a revenge-fuelled killing spree and the audience loved it (the Hound is still filled with hate and loves violence, so much for character development). 

[Unlady B]

2 hours ago, adamr said:

Behold: Jon's floppy sword.

http://imgur.com/w54N0Se

Lol, Edmure can't be the only one!

 

My nitpicking: possibly mentioned before in this thread, Sansa leaves before Ramsay mentions he's been starving his bitches. The comment is not that important as to have anyone still present render it to Sansa.

[Epyon]

Changes that would have made this episode better:

1. Instead of Arrows, Ramsey releases the hounds on Rickon, and Rickon is mauled to death.

2. Jon and Ghost don't save Rickon, but do get some action (particularly ghost) murdering Ramsey's dogs.

3. Jon + Davos+ Tormond at least pretend to not be among the worst commanders in history.

4. Anyone using a shield or armor.

5. Davos repositioning his archers to actually use them as archers vs Ramsey

6. Any kind of seige weapons on the Stark side... How exactly where they planning on breaching Winterfell with no seige weapons?

7. Jon's sword actually cutting a peasant steal sword in half.... Why is Brienne the only person who's Valaryian steel sword is given any credit?

8. Sansa keeping Ramsey alive.... and slowly torturing him, much as he did to Theon.... AND ENJOYING IT. (Hinting that Ramsey had in fact been soo evil, that he even somewhat corrupted her into at least partially becoming a monster herself... and maybe even Ramsey, while being tortured, enjoying that realization)

9 Melissandre either not being useless, or at least flashing her tits...

10. Jon taking at least one pity arrow out in field, or better yet Ramsey actually landing the arrow that killed Wun Wun on Jon (with Jon dodging it enough for it to not be fatal wound).... Felt too much like Jon was wearing plot armor the entire time.

[A Dance with Davos]

This whole season has been a drag. However I had hopes for this episode. I thought Hardhome and The Watchers on the Wall were great episodes. Story light, but certainly impressive action for a TV show. This? This was bad.

The Watchers on the Wall had the long awaited face off with the wildlings. Emotions ran high with Ygritte's death. The battle seemed close and not too predictable.

Hardhome had the desperate struggle against the White Walkers. It was all about escape. They'd lost.

Sure those two episodes had dumb moments, but they were interesting. The stupidity in this fight went beyond moronic. 

The worst part of this fight for me? The plot armour that protected Jon from the arrow volley. It was too much. Of course he has plot armour. I understand that, but it works better when it is being saved by an ally when a character is about to die. 

A good comparison would be Faramir in RotK. Faramir somehow is the only survivor, but is seriously wounded, cause realistically you are bound to be hit. I know not everyone would die from the volley in this episode, but there was no sense of danger. He gets trampled. We know he won't die. They are on the verge of defeat. They aren't gonna lose.