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(SPOILERS) Criticise Without Reprecussion


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9 hours ago, Ash Enshugar said:

The problem I guess is that you can't root for characters that are unlikeable and stupid. I can't really think of a single living character that doesn't meet those criteria. They've made Brienne into a emotionless T-1000, they've made Sansa into a vindictive girl who acts dumb and complains a lot. Jon is a sulking shell of a man who looks as if he's about to cry in every scene. Arya's arc is completely pointless, Daenerys is Genghis Khan with just about as much conscience, and Tyrion is a comic relief character.

Who exactly am I to root for in this story anymore?

I now root for the most egregious characters to die.  There's nothing else.

Oh, maybe Lyanna Mormont and Ghost. :wub:  But, shush, don't saying anything out loud or D$D will ruin them.

7 hours ago, Morgain said:

I don't know if this is any comfort re Sansa but her current failings do fit her long term character. In S1 she betrayed Arya re an attack on Joffrey. (Possibly Sansa's loss of her direwolf then was a foreshadowing that she was not going to have the strength of the Starks, their honour code.) She then betrayed her father's plans to Cersei. Both her betrayals were for individual ambition, short term advantage to gain status, and acted against her kindred. Status was always what Sansa loved.

After that she merely did what she felt she had to in order to survive humiliation and abuse in a series of situations. She's now a female Theon, a broken woman, but she never amounted to much anyway. She did almost nothing to overcome her humiliation and abuse, except a timid plot with a weak fool in KL - compare Arya for major contrast. So it's fairly logical she failed to aid Jon by sharing info on LF's army. She has no sense of teamwork (kindred loyalty) she's maybe an autistic solitary ambition.

It's been suggested she didn't know for sure LF would come. But an army commander (Jon) should be given ALL info, in order to make their decisions. It's their job to make decisions, not their officers to hold back stuff to 'protect' them. Sansa is from a warrior house, military class nobles, so she would have learned that growing up. Her mentor was her mother, very much a warrior house female.

However I seriously doubt if D&D have anything like this degree of mature analysis. To them she is just an excuse to put in dollops of violence. That includes the violence against her (Joffrey, Ramsey), and her own violence now in having Ramsay torn apart by (illogically) his own dogs. New tag maybe, violence peg, for characters like Theon, Sansa, and yes, Ramsay.

A note on the nature of mediaeval battles. They mostly didn't win by strategy. The dominant issues were i) loyalty of lords and mercenaries; ii) total muddle once it started, and iii) dysentery.

Battles were drawn up and sat for days doing nothing while parleys dragged on. Leaders and armies didn't want to fight - it was a threat/ threat game and they hoped to win or negotiate as much as possible without the losses of fighting. Lords held back - famously Henry VII only won because the big northern family decided to make a move after ages, and chose Henry. Mercenaries and secondary lords regularly slipped away unless they felt they were on the big numbers, better ground side. Then once battle was joined mostly strategy went into a muddle of mud/ dust and very often sheer accidents decided who won, such as Richard III losing his horse. Then some here have mentioned Agincourt which is a famous example of winning via dysentery. The longbows were a factor, but by the time action started the French camp was so sick from sewage the numbers who could stand up were not enough.

On violence and power D&D seem not to know the difference. A powerful person/ leader, is impressive when they DON'T resort to violence. Weak or stupid people do that. A strong leader does make use of violence as a tool, but sparingly. William the Conqueror for example, massacred the people of (modern) Yorkshire - completely. Replaced them with his own. Atrocity. But a strategic lesson. The result was he had very little trouble from a cowed English population for the rest of his reign. Contrary to D&D's puny fantasies, the medieaeval world was not a chaos of violence.

D&D's women are pathetic, though Martin is not that great either. Mediaeval women were extremely powerful. they organised political marriage alliances, bred networks of influence through foster children, held territories as regents, and established trading enterprises and empires of religious foundations. Cersei had glimpses of it earlier on, and cat Stark was quite good, but precious few others. Again D&D define 'power' as 'violence' so they have no idea how to construct a strong, strategic, compassionate and aware woman. Goddess save us from their pathetic trash idea of lesbians but then their obsession with prostitution gives away what their idea of sex is.

 

Does anyone else think we need to appeal to Martin to make a very strong public statement that the future books are going to be VERY DIFFERENT to the show? I'm sure he signed a bond not to criticise the show, but if he said that it would pass the terms of contractual bond, and we;d know what he meant!

 

 

Interesting post.  Thanks.

 

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It just pisses me off, that we got all this feminist mess now, because D&D just HAD to portray female "power"/"empowerment" in a way that just fazes EVERYONE. 

You know, a good show would balance all that stuff in a way that is natural, thus not even suggesting any stupid feministic-antifeministic discussions/rants. 

WHY do we have a foocking BITCHFEST right now???? (Sandra, Dandy, FailSnakes, Yarlesb)

AAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh!!!

Where is Game of Thrones in all of this???

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11 minutes ago, rayarts said:

It just pisses me off, that we got all this feminist mess now, because D&D just HAD to portray female "power"/"empowerment" in a way that just fazes EVERYONE. 

You know, a good show would balance all that stuff in a way that is natural, thus not even suggesting any stupid feministic-antifeministic discussions/rants. 

WHY do we have a foocking BITCHFEST right now???? (Sandra, Dandy, FailSnakes, Yarlesb)

AAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh!!!

Where is Game of Thrones in all of this???

It's almost out of spite. 

Too many tits and no dicks? a dick joke or an actual dick per episode. 

too many abuse against women and women being portrayed as victims? now every girl is either a psychopathic bitch or immortal. 

no more cringe dialogue? tons of cringe dialogue! 

it's their not subtle way of flipping it at the criticism. 

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I said it last week and I will repeat it again. For me, the most disgusting part of the episode and of the direction the show has been taking the last couple of seasons is that they are completely reversing what IMHO is one of the key themes of ASOIAF: Revenge is pointless, people unnecessarily die for it and leaves a bitter taste in your mouth.

A lot of good posts here have pointed out how the writers, once again, went out of their way, defying the laws of logic and archery, to show us how EVIL Ramsey is, so we are supposed to enjoy him being killed by his own dogs. It does not matter that her dear brother Rickon just died, Sansa has every reason to be happy because she took revenge on Ramsey raping her.... puke... 

On the other hand, we have Jon making a heap of stupid mistakes, but plot armor and LF save the day and it is all good and dandy. Well, that is not how things work in real world or Martinverse. Rememeber Rhaergar: 

“Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.”

The books gritty realism is there for a reason. If you fight honorably, you will lose and and your family, friends and allies will pay for it. Therefore, if you go to war, there are only two outcomes: you either die or you end up the winner but a worse person. 

By giving Jon such an easy victory despite he behaving as an utter useless commander just for the shock value of Sansa getting revenge on Ramsey is just the opposite of what I love about ASOIF. It is not the same story anymore, just garbage.

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I have no idea whether bookJon or showJon is smarter. bookJon has done so many mistakes that that asking him to be stabbed to death, a long list of hard-to-forgive mistakes over his noble heart, while showJon did just one huge mistake of charging against the entire Bolton army ignoring all the preparations he did in his emotional state. I thought the show whitewashed Jon...

I missed bookSansa not wanting to play in LF's game. showSansa disappointed me and whatever excuses she could find for not informning Jon about the Vale army would be stupid. Cersei was all about playing the game but she was very incompetent. I guess showSansa is the same.

Overall, the entire episode couldn't have been smarter than the writer, or was this out of spite?

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On 21 June 2016 at 0:42 PM, Steelegrave said:

The fact that you don't understand irony isn't on me.  Why the fuck should I explain I'm being ironic for you simpletons that can't grasp irony.  Huh?  Tell me.

When all you leave is a two word comment, you honestly think a reader will know whether you're being sarcastic?  I don't know you.  I've never taken notice of your posts until you replied to one of mine.  How should I know your aim is an attempt at humour?

The real irony is that I don't even disagree with your comments about the writers' stuff up over the snow but you are intent arguing.

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3 hours ago, teemo said:

Episode 9 is now the highest rated GoT episode on IMDB with a 10/10...

Aren't you supposed to be criticising in this thread - how dare you talk about a positive aspect of this show !

Don't worry, I'm only being facetious and taking the piss because apparently you started this thread type - I wasn't there at the beginning, so have no idea who started what.

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29 minutes ago, ummester said:

Aren't you supposed to be criticising in this thread - how dare you talk about a positive aspect of this show !

Don't worry, I'm only being facetious and taking the piss because apparently you started this thread type - I wasn't there at the beginning, so have no idea who started what.

Yeah, no one remembers the poor little person who started this awesomely negative thread :(

Nah, I've changed my name like 4 times since season 2, so I don't expect anyone, except for a couple people I know really well on here, to know that :P  

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Nobody seems to have mentioned the biggest stupidity in the Rickon scene. It is not the zigzagging etc, it is the fact that he shoots his liege lord in front of his own army. I seem to recall there was a reason for the Sansa's marriage. You'd guess murdering your own liege in front of witnesses might might be a bad thing but apparently it is tactical genius because only the other side cares about little stuff like that. 

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4 hours ago, rayarts said:

It just pisses me off, that we got all this feminist mess now, because D&D just HAD to portray female "power"/"empowerment" in a way that just fazes EVERYONE. 

You know, a good show would balance all that stuff in a way that is natural, thus not even suggesting any stupid feministic-antifeministic discussions/rants. 

WHY do we have a foocking BITCHFEST right now???? (Sandra, Dandy, FailSnakes, Yarlesb)

AAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh!!!

Where is Game of Thrones in all of this???

And they can't even do feminism right. Their whole idea of empowerment is sooo, sooo wrong.

Their female characters always need the approval of men (look at Dany and Yara before making the alliance, if this was one isolated case you could argue they are simply listening to their advisors but this happens all the time). Sansa can only be a "strong female" by getting revenge. Brienne is only empowered through violence. D&D think the only way for a female to be empowered is either through violence/revenge or sex. That's it.

It hasn't entered their minds that women can also be strong because of their empathy, intelligence, social/diplomatic skills, cunning, honor, sense of justice etc.

Sansa in the books is a very empathetic person, Brienne is quite insecure and more like the opposite of a cold-blooded killer, et cetera

D&D's whole idea that rape+revenge = empowerment is so downright insulting and yet people still seem to think this show is actually good for feminism.

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5 minutes ago, Survivor92 said:

D&D's whole idea that rape+revenge = empowerment is so downright insulting and yet people still seem to think this show is actually good for feminism.

You're right, they're doing it wrong, but my point was - GoT should have never even TOUCHED the subject of feminism. It should be about the story of ASoIaF. However, because we got these talented (not) writers, everyone's focusing on stuff like that instead. That is a major sign that things fall apart - if audiences are discussing everything BUT the story.

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1 hour ago, Johannes Rimpiläinen said:

Nobody seems to have mentioned the biggest stupidity in the Rickon scene. It is not the zigzagging etc, it is the fact that he shoots his liege lord in front of his own army. I seem to recall there was a reason for the Sansa's marriage. You'd guess murdering your own liege in front of witnesses might might be a bad thing but apparently it is tactical genius because only the other side cares about little stuff like that. 

In this context Rickon is no ones liege lord. If Ramsay were to acknowledge Rickon as this, why would anyone follow him?

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21 hours ago, Red Tiger said:

She.Was.Not.Certain.Littlefinger.Would.Help

She does not fully trust Littlefinger. Sure she could have told Jon about potential soldiers, but it was a gamble. Suppose she tells him about the Knights of the Vale, Jon changes the plans to accomodate them and then Littlefinger decides not to help. I mean it aint the first time Littlefinger screwed Sansa over.

Well, she was certain enough to tell him "wait until we have a bigger army"

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1 hour ago, Survivor92 said:

D&D's whole idea that rape+revenge = empowerment is so downright insulting and yet people still seem to think this show is actually good for feminism.

That's because most people nowadays have no idea what feminism stands for
even the ones that call themselves feminists, as you can see most of them fall for this bait

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58 minutes ago, Nami said:

That's because most people nowadays have no idea what feminism stands for
even the ones that call themselves feminists, as you can see most of them fall for this bait

Yeah. I have some friends who are self-proclaimed feminists, frequently post about it (on Facebook) yet they also make FB posts about Yara/Daenerys being so cool together, for example.

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