Discussing Sansa XXV: Who let the dogs out...

[DMC]

Ha, great thread title.  I don't have the energy to endure all the complaints I'm sure have already been levied about the episode right now - 2 hours of Penny Dreadful awaits!  What I will say, here I guess, is Sansa not even bothering to tell Jon about the fucking army she has coming to help was...not the best.

[King Louis II (KLII)]

57 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

I loved Sansa's little smile as she turns away from the grisly scene.

Thats was one of the best things in the episode!!!!! Loved it

 

I have been been bitching so much about the last episodes... I am so happy to have watchd a good one!

[A Ghost of Someone]

40 minutes ago, Winter Is Overdue said:

As soon as I saw Sansa on the other side of the bars I was hoping Ramsay would get his helping of Karma. That was awesome. I also hope Sansa has been drinking Moon Tea like it's water. She said something along the lines that he and the Bolton name would fade from memory. I would think that means she's NOT pregnant.

unfortunately that is not "off" the table. These writers have twisted her character around into doing some pretty idiotic things as well as being idiotic for not doing certain things.

[Frejac]

7 minutes ago, Pandean said:

It's for discussing her. Not necessarily positive or negative.

 

I have to disagree though. Jon and Davos obviously underestimated Ramsay. When they were planning their battle plans it was very straightforward, them thinking they would trap him, etc. Sansa may not know specific battle formations, but she does know Ramsay and she warned them that he was smarter than that--that if they thought they'd be able to trick him, they were wrong.

 

So, the fact that she held back the Vale until the end was what saved their asses because if Jon and Davos knew about the Vale, they'd have used them in the initial attack instead of saving them for another charge and the battle may have still been lost.

 

It's not about the number of men--it's about how that number is used.

Example: Ramsay's archers were stupid not to be launching into the circle of trapped Stark/Wildling army when they were surrounded on all sides.

Jon shouldn't have charged into battle.

He wasn't being smart and he let Ramsay control him in the way that Ramsay does best.

Sansa knew that it would happen, she tried to warm them of how Ramsay works, but in the end they wouldn't listen. Her keeping the Vale army a secret pretty much saved their hides.

She knew that Ramsay was more devious than Jon was giving him credit for, and Jon did fall for the Rickon trap; however, there was no way she could possibly know how whatever trick Ramsay had planned would affect the battle, and there is not basis for thinking that Jon would have used the Vale in the initial attack.  They would not have even controlled the Vale; the Vale would have controlled the Vale.  They would plan the assault together, but Jon would lead the North, Littlefinger the Vale.

And just because the Vale being kept in reserve won the battle by causing Ramsay to commit to the field to fight Jon, does not mean that Jon knowing about the Vale would have changed this.

I keep saying this in different threads, but by consulting with the Vale, they could have planned a strategy that would use the Northern forces to bait Ramsay out and then use the Vale to crush him with their surprise arrival.  I think this would actually be the simplest way to use them.  And since Jon, by his dialogue in this episode, obviously knew that his smaller force would cause Ramsay to take to the field rather than prepare for a siege, I believe that this is exactly how Jon would have planned the attack.

If he had known that it was a possibility, of course.

[Into the Weirwood]

38 minutes ago, direwoofwoof said:

I was kind of hoping Sansa would chop his head off right there in the yard after Jon made mincemeat of his face... but the show has been so good building up Ramsey's evilness that this karmic ending was necessary. Sansa has turned into a badass.

I sooo hoped Sansa would have killed him herself right then and there too. I feel like it'd be more satisfying

[Darksky]

How easy it is to tell someone not to get provoked and goaded. It's harder to do. Humans are ruled by emotions. Anyone who'd see their family get gunned down right in front of them would snap.

Sansa was frustrated by being left out of the battle plans but she had nothing to offer to the table (like why would she?). Then again, she actually had one thing. Information, which would have changed a lot. She really couldn't be bothered with Jon and his men's lives.

[Frejac]

I will say that I loved the dog scene at the end.

It was just soured for me during a first watch of the episode because of how mad I was at Sansa for the lying.

[nothatso]

Sansa could have told Jon about Littlefinger and the Knights of the Vale well before they reached the battlefield. Jon charging in like an idiot does not excuse Sansa for putting them in that position to begin with. She wanted him to wait? Well she had the means to convince him to wait, and she chose not to use those means. She either knowingly endangered Jon and their army or she's more of an idiot than people think.

...or it was just poorly written.

[lakin1013]

Many of you are remarking that Sansa's plan worked.  It did.  But was it honorable?  Did it treat her brother and his allies, Lady Mormont, and others in a humane way?  No, they were means to an end, her end.  Did it respect the people who were fighting for her?  No.  The folks fighting and dying for her were, as they say, collateral damage. This is a great example of the ends justifying the means.  How would Jon feel if he were to find out?

And before we go all Girl Power let's remember that LF was instrumental in killing her father and talking her into marrying a sadistic rapist.  So actually we have Sansa relying on a horrible guy just, JUST in order to get her revenge.  Based on Martin's books, I do not think revenge works very well.

 

 

[King Onion Knight]

Has it entered anyones mind maybe Sansa wanted to see Jon dead? Perhaps the lords of the north dont care and would crown him king in the north instead of crowning sansa.

[IrisBest]

2 minutes ago, DarkerStar said:

She alienated her brother. 

Erm, Jon seems perfectly fine with her?

https://66.media.tumblr.com/3e92572c7b8b90af095c5f40cf17bcc0/tumblr_o91qotq8Wy1rszoo3o1_r1_540.gif

I'm betting he's gonna interrupt whatever moment LF is trying to pull with Sansa in the Godswood next ep in order to protect Sansa, too. Like these two are a more united front than ever (much to the annoyance of certain people in this fandom, no doubt ).

[Xarkar]

Should have been ghost..

 

 

[Pandean]

6 minutes ago, DarkerStar said:

Why should they have listened though? We know she had some good information but the people she is trying to convince to listen to her don't. John made a plan based on what he knew. If she had told him about the Valemen beforehand they could have made a new plan that didn't involve killing off most of the Northern forces. Really Sansa has set herself up to be right back under Littlefinger's thumb. She alienated her brother. Lost most of the Northern forces. And has thousands of soldiers loyal to someone else right on her doorstep.

Exactly. She knew they wouldn't listen--she tried--so she kept it a secret. Also, there was no way for her to know if the Vale forces would come and arrive on time--if they'd come at all.

 

Jon, bless his heart, is not the best battle commander and he easily allowed himself to fall into every one of Ramsay's traps. Having more men wouldn't have changed that. He lost the advantage when he solo charged at Ramsay's army. Ramsay made him angry and he paid the price for it via his men's lives. When Jon charged, his men followed, so it wouldn't matter if the Vale army had been there or they knew about them--if Sansa knew for sure they were coming or not--they would've been wasted as Jon had forgone any strategy when Rickon was killed.

 

Also, I feel as if Littlefinger is going to meet his end rather soon and I don't think that Sansa will be put back under his thumb. I think the teaser trailers are meant to misdirect watchers and I think Sansa is smart enough to do something with Littlefinger. 

 

As well as: the Vale soldiers are only loyal to LF by proxy. We still have Robin and the Lords of the Vale to deal with. Sure, LF probably has a number on his side, but Robin is the Lord of the Vale, despite being...well...Robin. 

 

Either way; Sansa revealing the Vale might come to their aid wouldn't change anything because the battle would still happen the next day and Jon and Davos weren't going to listen to her when she explained what Ramsay would do.

Ramsay did as Sansa predicted. Jon fell into his trap.

Throwing more horsed men into the mix would've only made it worse.

[Darksky]

It's an interesting turn for her character, she has stooped to some low levels. 

Hopefully Jon opens his eyes to what she has become. I don't want to see him get used as a means to an end.

[Stannistician]

8 minutes ago, greensleeves said:

Hey, I haven't watched the episode (or season); I'm just reading spoilers. I'm trying to speculate on how this might play out in the books. I'm thinking Sansa will come to Winterfell with an army from the Vale and it really will be a surprise for the Northern forces.

What do you guys think?

Probably not.

She has no motive to kill Ramsay in the books (not that this could be her only possible motive, but still it is one less that she would have). 

In the books winter has already arrived.  It has reached the Vale and even King's Landing by the end of Dance.  And there is a huge blizzard in the north with snow head high in some places.  It would be impossible to get a southron army up to WF in books.

Even though Moat Calin was apparently left unguarded in the show, it is guarded in the books and would be impossible for a southron army to pass, so they would have to use boats (WF not anywhere near coast and don't know how many boats the Vale would have available). 

Sansa isn't really the type to lead an army.

Its more likely that the Vale army would engage in the Riverlands or maybe even the Crownlands given what is about to take place there in the books.

There is also a pretty good theory on these forums (sorry I don't have link) regarding the foreshadowing of a possible avalanche taking place in the Vale.  I don't buy all of it, but it is interesting to read.

Lastly, the mad mouse may play a role in Sansa's story in the books. 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, Ludo Kressh said:

I don't think she's preggers, I think Ramsey was trying to get in her head one last time....and she wasn't having any of it, her smile at the end of that scene was so damn satisfying.

I thought so too. A few episodes ago when Sansa was telling Jon that, "she could still feel it (him?) inside me," and now what Ramsay said about "he'll always be a part of her."

[Bear Claw]

2 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Exactly. She knew they wouldn't listen--she tried--so she kept it a secret. Also, there was no way for her to know if the Vale forces would come and arrive on time--if they'd come at all.

 

Jon, bless his heart, is not the best battle commander and he easily allowed himself to fall into every one of Ramsay's traps. Having more men wouldn't have changed that. He lost the advantage when he solo charged at Ramsay's army. Ramsay made him angry and he paid the price for it via his men's lives. When Jon charged, his men followed, so it wouldn't matter if the Vale army had been there or they knew about them--if Sansa knew for sure they were coming or not--they would've been wasted as Jon had forgone any strategy when Rickon was killed.

 

Also, I feel as if Littlefinger is going to meet his end rather soon and I don't think that Sansa will be put back under his thumb. I think the teaser trailers are meant to misdirect watchers and I think Sansa is smart enough to do something with Littlefinger. 

 

As well as: the Vale soldiers are only loyal to LF by proxy. We still have Robin and the Lords of the Vale to deal with. Sure, LF probably has a number on his side, but Robin is the Lord of the Vale, despite being...well...Robin. 

 

Either way; Sansa revealing the Vale might come to their aid wouldn't change anything because the battle would still happen the next day and Jon and Davos weren't going to listen to her when she explained what Ramsay would do.

Ramsay did as Sansa predicted. Jon fell into his trap.

Throwing more horsed men into the mix would've only made it worse.

I agree with you. This makes it clear why she did not trust him earlier.  

[Stannistician]

4 minutes ago, King Onion Knight said:

Has it entered anyones mind maybe Sansa wanted to see Jon dead? Perhaps the lords of the north dont care and would crown him king in the north instead of crowning sansa.

I was thinking this same thing while I watched it.  I thought she looked disappointed to see Jon crawl out of the pile and chase Ramsay. 

[Pandean]

4 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

Many of you are remarking that Sansa's plan worked.  It did.  But was it honorable?  Did it treat her brother and his allies, Lady Mormont, and others in a humane way?  No, they were means to an end, her end.  Did it respect the people who were fighting for her?  No.  The folks fighting and dying for her were, as they say, collateral damage. This is a great example of the ends justifying the means.  How would Jon feel if he were to find out?

And before we go all Girl Power let's remember that LF was instrumental in killing her father and talking her into marrying a sadistic rapist.  So actually we have Sansa relying on a horrible guy just, JUST in order to get her revenge.  Based on Martin's books, I do not think revenge works very well.

 

 

Based on the books I'd say honor doesn't work very well either.

There is no honor in a battle. There is blood and chaos and violence. But not honor. 

I'd like to point out it doesn't specify if Sansa knew if/when the vale lords would come. But the minute Jon charged and fell into the trap Ramsay set, there was not much she could do but wait. Adding more horses and soldiers into that mess would've just made a bigger body wall. 

The battle was brutal and messy and deadly because battles are brutal and messy and deadly.

 

2 minutes ago, King Onion Knight said:

Has it entered anyones mind maybe Sansa wanted to see Jon dead? Perhaps the lords of the north dont care and would crown him king in the north instead of crowning sansa.

No. It hasn't crossed my mind at all. She's shown no hints (IMO) of resentment or jealousy of Jon or of desire to be QoTN. Even if she did want or feel either of those things, I think the development of her relationship with Jon in the season points directly away from her wanting him dead.

[Darksky]

5 minutes ago, King Onion Knight said:

Has it entered anyones mind maybe Sansa wanted to see Jon dead? Perhaps the lords of the north dont care and would crown him king in the north instead of crowning sansa.

I think she didn't mind gambling with Jon's life. She was so determined on that revenge of hers that even Rickon wasn't important. She used Jon, his loyalty to his family and his men to get what she wanted. Winterfell and Ramsay (dead)

It'll be a glorious moment when she gets cucked and the Northerners choose Jon (for his deeds) over her.