Discussing Sansa XXV: Who let the dogs out...

[lakin1013]

How can you possibly argue that Sansa sharing the truth wouldn't have changed anything.  There is ZERO basis to make that claim, and no evidence at all - except basic common sense that when planning a battle, allies should share battle arrangements.  Sansa shared nothing.  She simply relied on another guy, a bad dude.

[greensleeves]

21 minutes ago, Stannistician said:

Probably not.

She has no motive to kill Ramsay in the books (not that this could be her only possible motive, but still it is one less that she would have). 

 

She's been focused on retaking Winterfell in the books; that's my thinking of her motivation.

21 minutes ago, Stannistician said:

In the books winter has already arrived.  It has reached the Vale and even King's Landing by the end of Dance.  And there is a huge blizzard in the north with snow head high in some places.  It would be impossible to get a southron army up to WF in books.

Even though Moat Calin was apparently left unguarded in the show, it is guarded in the books and would be impossible for a southron army to pass, so they would have to use boats (WF not anywhere near coast and don't know how many boats the Vale would have available). 

All good points.

21 minutes ago, Stannistician said:

Sansa isn't really the type to lead an army.

I was thinking she'd travel with them... not lead them into battle.

 

Edit: To me it seems clear that her arc is headed towards Winterfell and this seems like a logical point for her to get there.

 

[Pandean]

Just now, Darksky said:

I think she didn't mind gambling with Jon's life. She was so determined on that revenge of hers that even Rickon wasn't important. She used Jon, his loyalty to his family and his men to get what she wanted. Winterfell and Ramsay (dead)

It'll be a glorious moment when she gets cucked and the Northerners choose Jon (for his deeds) over her.

Why doesn't she care about Rickon? Rickon is obviously very important. That's the clinch in why she marched. 

But she was right. Ramsay would never let Rickon go alive. Harsh reality but it's true. As long as Ramsay was alive, Rickon wouldn't be, and it wasn't too hard to guess Ramsay would use Rickon to goad Jon into charging. Which Sansa warned would happen.

I honestly am so confused about where everyone sees this power-hungry vamp and if they're watching the same show as I am.

[lakin1013]

9 minutes ago, IrisBest said:

Erm, Jon seems perfectly fine with her?

https://66.media.tumblr.com/3e92572c7b8b90af095c5f40cf17bcc0/tumblr_o91qotq8Wy1rszoo3o1_r1_540.gif

UNLESS he still doesn't know. The forehead kiss is from next episode.  He may still be ignorant of her duplicity. 

[Darksky]

I hope it's not glossed over and Jon confronts her about it. Also doesn't buy her excuse if she even has one.

[Bear Claw]

3 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

UNLESS he still doesn't know. The forehead kiss is from next episode.  He may still be ignorant of her duplicity.

I think he does know. He says they need to trust one another. 

[Pandean]

2 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

How can you possibly argue that Sansa sharing the truth wouldn't have changed anything.  There is ZERO basis to make that claim, and no evidence at all - except basic common sense that when planning a battle, allies should share battle arrangements.  Sansa shared nothing.  She simply relied on another guy, a bad dude.

Because, logistically, it wouldn't.

They had plans, yes. But Davos and Jon's plans fundamentally underestimated Ramsay and Sansa tried to get that across and failed.

Jon tried to make Ramsay angry. Sansa said that Ramsay is the one who "sets traps", not them. Ramsay sent Rickon out solely to set the trap that would make Jon charge alone, thus all of their battle plans right there were screwed.

Literally didn't Davos or Tormund say "Jon, don't" or something like that right before that happened?
 

We're never given confirmation if Sansa knows the Vale lords will show up with certainty. Even so, her revealing them to Jon in the beginning would have most likely ended the same way because all the plans they had fell apart the moment Jon charged.

 

It's one thing to plan a battle--it's another to actually follow the plan. Jon was too sure of himself and was fooled into charging. By that time, even the knowledge of the Vale's Army, they would've just been more fodder for the wall of the dead.

[Darksky]

Jon would be a fool to trust her on anything from this point on. 

[Florina Laufeyson]

5 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Why doesn't she care about Rickon? Rickon is obviously very important. That's the clinch in why she marched. 

But she was right. Ramsay would never let Rickon go alive. Harsh reality but it's true. As long as Ramsay was alive, Rickon wouldn't be, and it wasn't too hard to guess Ramsay would use Rickon to goad Jon into charging. Which Sansa warned would happen.

I honestly am so confused about where everyone sees this power-hungry vamp and if they're watching the same show as I am.

 

Its people really dead set on hating Sansa or finding some reason to not root for her. The Sansa hate is really deep seated in this fandom, holy shit. Theres still book fans who are unwilling to forgive what she did in the first book. 

[Stannistician]

4 minutes ago, Darksky said:

I hope it's not glossed over and Jon confronts her about it. Also doesn't buy her excuse if she even has one.

Tormund should confront her about all the Free Folk that she condemned to death.

[lakin1013]

2 minutes ago, Bear Claw said:

I think he does know. He says they need to trust one another. 

I appreciate the fact that you think that, but now I think that Sansa is perfectly willing to USE Jon again to her own ends.  She could be playing him big time.  Jon is an odd character in the story in that he is a believer in goodness, oddly enough.  When Sansa was a young girl all about handsome knights and lemon cakes, well she has left that all far behind, understandably so.  Somehow, Jon has retained a certain trust in people, not all people, but he respects and loves the people he trusts.  Sansa, if she ever had the quality, has lost it. Or she has lost how to know how to trust.  

[tormund's beard]

4 minutes ago, Darksky said:

Jon would be a fool to trust her on anything from this point on. 

i agree she let thousands of men die

[lakin1013]

3 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

 

dbl post -- sorry

[Pandean]

1 minute ago, Florina Laufeyson said:

Its people really dead set on hating Sansa or finding some reason to not root for her. The Sansa hate is really deep seated in this fandom, holy shit. Theres still book fans who are unwilling to forgive what she did in the first book. 

Whenever I run into people who use "She killed Lady!" or "She's the reason Mycah died!" or "She killed Ned!" as an excuse to hate her even now I just want to either roll my eyes, punch something, or both.

I feel like Sansa could've been a perfect character after that point and people would still forgive her.

And let's not even get into Arya is a fucking sociopath and a slight brat with mental issues who is still viewed as some cute little tomboy

[greensleeves]

4 minutes ago, Florina Laufeyson said:

Its people really dead set on hating Sansa or finding some reason to not root for her. The Sansa hate is really deep seated in this fandom, holy shit. Theres still book fans who are unwilling to forgive what she did in the first book. 

 

2 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

Sansa, if she ever had the quality, has lost it. Or she has lost how to know how to trust.  

 

Yup, seems legit.

 

[IrisBest]

4 minutes ago, Pandean said:

Why doesn't she care about Rickon? Rickon is obviously very important. That's the clinch in why she marched. 

But she was right. Ramsay would never let Rickon go alive. Harsh reality but it's true. As long as Ramsay was alive, Rickon wouldn't be, and it wasn't too hard to guess Ramsay would use Rickon to goad Jon into charging. Which Sansa warned would happen.

I honestly am so confused about where everyone sees this power-hungry vamp and if they're watching the same show as I am.

Lol same. It takes a special kind of maliciousness to read Sansa this way. The fact that people are calling her smile over Ramsay's death an "evil smile", when she has more than earned the right to show satisfaction over his death, of ALL PEOPLE, tells you all you need to know. 

Just now, Darksky said:

Jon would be a fool to trust her on anything from this point on. 

Well, he does. The """lie""" about the Vale was overblown by fandom from the start. Jon understands why she did it and is showing more tenderness towards her than he ever has. And from a writing standpoint this plot line was clearly never about setting up a wedge between those two it was just about creating artificial suspense about the outcome of the battle. Some people may not like that but there you go. 

I'm also not convinced yet Jon didn't know the Vale was coming because the spoiler dude who literally described the battle with perfect accuracy weeks ago, including the scene in the WF courtyard with Jon, Sansa and Ramsay, also said there would be a follow up scene where Jon sees LF arrive and says "you're late". A scene which appears to have been cut for time. We'll probably get confirmation that he knew about them in episode 10. 

[Bear Claw]

Just now, Florina Laufeyson said:

Its people really dead set on hating Sansa or finding some reason to not root for her. The Sansa hate is really deep seated in this fandom, holy shit. Theres still book fans who are unwilling to forgive what she did in the first book. 

Yes. I see that people are sticking to that first impression they had of Sansa when she was a child. I see that Sansa has really evolved. She is more sophisticated, bold, and astute.  This season really highlighted her ability to read people and "play the game" accordingly. I think she does have a darker edge, but it will not be aimed at Jon. 

[hallam]

1 hour ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

The thing is, did Jon order that or was that all Sansa?

I can see Jon being a little mad

No, Jon stopped trying to kill Ramsay precisely because Sansa had a higher right to the kill. And Sansa killed Ramsay in the way that was fitting.

Dying at Jon's hands would be dying an honorable death in combat. Sansa executed Ramsay. And did so in the same way he murdered his brother and mother in law.

Also the whiners should eat crow now for complaining earlier when Ramsay fed Miranda and his brother to the dogs. It was foreshadowing his own fate - as his father warned before he killed him - behave like a dog, you will be treated like one.

Just now, Darksky said:

Jon would be a fool to trust her on anything from this point on. 

Who says he is the person in charge?

I think he is going to be discovering that he isn't a Stark very soon. And the show is leading up to a point where all the principle power brokers are women - Danny, Cersei, Yara, why not Sansa as Warden of the North?

I suspect Arya will be running Riverrun fairly soon as well. One Frey (Walder) needs offing.

[Pandean]

So, how do you think the battle would have gone down if Sansa had let in the knowledge of the Vale's forces. What exactly would have changed? How would it have changed things once the charge happened? How exactly would you have used that knowledge and what plan would you have made considering?

 

Seriously wondering. 

[Future Null Infinity]

My girl did it