Discussing Sansa XXV: Who let the dogs out...

[The Fattest Leech]

3 minutes ago, Risto said:

And did Jon listen to her? Because this episode showed that she was rather smart to keep information for herself as Jon "listened" and then did the opposite. This entire episode showed that he should have listened to Sansa more carefully. She did nothing to him that he didn't do to her. Unfortunately for him, she proved to be much smarter in entire situation.

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/52fc05c9e4b08fc45bd99090/t/575f24f2b09f95492580e91d/1465853176949/?format=1000w

HBO released it.

Show forum. She didn't go to Cersei, remember. Choose the canon and stick to it

 

Sorry, but that is some bullsh*t if I have to go outside the show to fill in the gaps inside the show. Lazy, really lazy.

And Sansa has been lying to Jon since the minute of their reunion. This was not a "sudden change" in heart for Sansa to do.

[Darksky]

2 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

You are actually arguing that seeing your younger brother or your youngest child killed before your eyes would not sway you from following the course.  You would leave him or her, dead on the ground, and return back to the line because you might fall into Ramsay's trap.  It is possible that almost no human in that situation would not fall into Ramsay's trap.  

Seems like Sansa wouldn't....and she'd be the only Stark who's left who wouldn't. She had given up on Rickon even before the battle. Ned and Catelyn are rolling in their graves

[DarkerStar]

Just now, Risto said:

Didn't she mentioned Cerwyns? Wasn't it established that they were waiting for Manderlys?

 The Cerwyns are a solid point for your argument. I don't know if it was ever establised how many more men they would have brought though. I don't know why i would say let's go get the Cerwyns when I know there are 10000 Valemen out there.

 

Weren't the Boltons expecting the Manderlys too?

[Future Null Infinity]

I was waiting for this moment since season 4, I love Sansa, I love this bitch 

[Frejac]

1 minute ago, Risto said:

Didn't she mention Cerwyns? Wasn't it established that they were waiting for Manderlys?

She mentioned they could ask the Cerwyns in episode seven, but I don't remember what was said about the Manderlys.

The reason Jon doesn't listen to her here is because he doesn't feel the time cost and weather risk is worth the amount of men he could get, especially weighed against the possibility of being refused.

The part about her saying nothing about where to get more men came from this episode.

In both cases, the possibility of getting help from the Vale is a lot more appealing than from one or two more Northern houses that might refuse.  It's a case of delaying the attack to get zero to a few hundred men, as opposed to delaying to get several thousand.

[The Fattest Leech]

6 minutes ago, tormund's beard said:

Jon explicitly asks Sansa "Where do you suggest we get more men?" And she says nothing.

if you can't see no wrong with this the you're as blind as the haters.

im 100% willing to accept all this crap with the vale as shitty writing and not sansa's evil agenda.

This is so true.

[TheKitttenGuard]

7 minutes ago, Frejac said:

To the people saying Jon is an idiot.

There's a difference between being an idiot and being emotional.

Being emotional can cause you to do idiotic things, but it does not make you an idiot.

When you are goading someone you want to get an emotional response.

You also have to watch your emotions. Rickon was used to get an emotional response to get Jon to attack. 

 

I do not think Jon would of been more cautious if he knew of the Vale forces. For what he did in charging after Rickon is an emotional response.

[Lothar]

9 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

You are actually arguing that seeing your younger brother or your youngest child killed before your eyes would not sway you from following the course.  You would leave him or her, dead on the ground, and return back to the line because you might fall into Ramsay's trap.  It is possible that almost no human in that situation would not fall into Ramsay's trap.  

I'm not blaming or faulting him.  But she did warn him not to fall into it.  She thought he would fall into Ramsay's trap and he did.  Maybe she's right in thinking she needed to do something on her own and she needed a wild card that he didn't know about.  

[DarkerStar]

1 minute ago, Risto said:

And he never listened to her. In this relationship, Jon thought of her as naive, innocent, stupid girl and Sansa didn't think he could match LF. The thing is, she was right, he wasn't. At least, based on this episode.

Jon listened to her about the Blackfish. He listened when she made her passionate plea at Castle Black about retaking what's theirs after the Pink Letter (What a great moment by the way that was a Sansa I could love). I bet he would have listened about the Valemen too. Seems like when Sansa says things of consequence, people listen

[UnViserion]

Boss. Ass. Bitch. 

[The Fattest Leech]

Just now, TheKitttenGuard said:

When you are goading someone you want to get an emotional response.

You also have to watch your emotions. Rickon was used to get an emotional response to get Jon to attack. 

 

I do not think Jon would of been more cautious if he knew of the Vale forces. For what he did in charging after Rickon is an emotional response.

I think you are correct here. The whole strategy and timing would have been different. With that many more forces, it wouldn't have been just an head-on combat.

A delay could have saved Rickon's life as Jon was riding out to save his little brother.

[Frejac]

1 minute ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

When you are goading someone you want to get an emotional response.

You also have to watch your emotions. Rickon was used to get an emotional response to get Jon to attack. 

 

I do not think Jon would of been more cautious if he knew of the Vale forces. For what he did in charging after Rickon is an emotional response.

I agree, but that still doesn't make Jon stupid.  It makes Jon an emotional man who did a stupid thing that got people killed.  There is a difference.  That's all I'm saying.

[Mladen]

1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Sorry, but that is some bullsh*t if I have to go outside the show to fill in the gaps inside the show. Lazy, really lazy.

And Sansa has been lying to Jon since the minute of their reunion. This was not a "sudden change" in heart for Sansa to do.

And that is the canon of the show. You can take it with HBO, not me

Since the minute? Really? What did she lie him about at that second? The pea pies of Old Nan or that she regrets being snobbish? 

2 minutes ago, DarkerStar said:

 The Cerwyns are a solid point for your argument. I don't know if it was ever establised how many more men they would have brought though. I don't know why i would say let's go get the Cerwyns when I know there are 10000 Valemen out there.

 

Weren't the Boltons expecting the Manderlys too?

The thing is Sansa didn't want LF over them. She knew what LF wants and she was trying to neutralize his influence. Should she have told Jon? Probably. But Jon should have also listened to her more attentively. Even in this episode.

Not that I remember.

1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This is so true.

Not true. Sansa mentioned Cerwyns and they spoke about Manderlys when they have visited Glover.

2 minutes ago, Frejac said:

She mentioned they could ask the Cerwyns in episode seven, but I don't remember what was said about the Manderlys.

The reason Jon doesn't listen to her here is because he doesn't feel the time cost and weather risk is worth the amount of men he could get, especially weighed against the possibility of being refused.

The part about her saying nothing about where to get more men came from this episode.

In both cases, the possibility of getting help from the Vale is a lot more appealing than from one or two more Northern houses that might refuse.  It's a case of delaying the attack to get zero to a few hundred men, as opposed to delaying to get several thousand.

The Manderlys were mentioned during visit to Glovers.

Jon made the decision not to listen to her. Jon paid for that decision. Plain and simple.

Do people really believe that LF would have helped Starks for free? That he wants nothing? That the prize Sansa mentioned in her letter wasn't something that we now has to think about?

[The Fattest Leech]

2 minutes ago, Lothar said:

I'm not blaming or faulting him.  But she did warn him not to fall into it.  She thought he would fall into Ramsay's trap and he did.  Maybe she's right in thinking she needed to do something on her own and she needed a wild card that he didn't know about.  

How about telling Jon and Davos at the little council that she has a literal army just around the corner? Ya know, when Jon asked.

[Mladen]

2 minutes ago, DarkerStar said:

Jon listened to her about the Blackfish. He listened when she made her passionate plea at Castle Black about retaking what's theirs after the Pink Letter (What a great moment by the way that was a Sansa I could love). I bet he would have listened about the Valemen too. Seems like when Sansa says things of consequence, people listen

OK, and what happened in this episode. He ignored her. He laughed at her. He basically said "yeah, yeah, sis, I know better". He didn't understand the value of her advice. And we all saw what happened.

1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

How about telling Jon and Davos at the little council that she has a literal army just around the corner? Ya know, when Jon asked.

Because Vale army is not her army. And it didn't come without her promising something to LF. And we all know what LF wants.

[nothatso]

If Sansa told Jon about the Knights of the Vale before they arrive at Winterfell, then he'd agree to wait at least until Sansa or someone else investigated to see if they were actually coming. Clearly they weren't very far off. Jon was an idiot to charge in alone, but that in no way excuses the fact that Sansa put them in the position to be massacred by a much larger army. If she tells him well ahead of time then they don't field the army that early, Jon doesn't see Rickon get killed too early and do his stupid charge, and far fewer people die. They could have coordinated the surprise attack with fewer casualties. They didn't - because of Sansa's decisions.

 

This "he never listened" stuff is utter nonsense. He did listen. She gave him no reason to agree, and by choice.

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, Risto said:

And that is the canon of the show. You can take it with HBO, not me

 

I agree

I'm just aghast at how many inconsistencies and holes keep popping up within the show. Come on, four grown, college educated men wrote this... after it was already written for them. I just don't get it.

[Darksky]

Yes, Jon should have just let Ramsay gun Rickon down and not even try to do anything about it, then led his men into battle and trampled Rickons's dead body while they're at it. Ned would have been so proud.

[Frejac]

1 minute ago, Risto said:

Do people really believe that LF would have helped Starks for free? That he wants nothing? That the prize Sansa mentioned in her letter wasn't something that we now has to think about?

I don't think anyone thinks that Littlefinger would have helped for free.  What I think is that had they worked with him from the beginning (or even had Sansa told Jon when she wrote the letter), they could have planned a better strategy, come away with more men, and ultimately been in a stronger position to deal with Littlefinger when the time came to pay up.

[tormund's beard]

Just now, nothatso said:

If Sansa told Jon about the Knights of the Vale before they arrive at Winterfell, then he'd agree to wait at least until Sansa or someone else investigated to see if they were actually coming. Clearly they weren't very far off. Jon was an idiot to charge in alone, but that in no way excuses the fact that Sansa put them in the position to be massacred by a much larger army. If she tells him well ahead of time then they don't field the army that early, Jon never sees Rickon get killed and does his stupid charge, and far fewer people die. They could have coordinated the surprise attack with fewer casualties. They didn't - because of Sansa's decisions.

 

This "he never listened" stuff is utter nonsense. He did listen. She gave him no reason to agree, and by choice.

agree 10/10 would agree again