[Spoilers?] What was the point of Rickon?

[House Mosse]

12 hours ago, Nerevanin said:

That interesting with the "shaggy dog story" term, I've never heard it before (but as I'm not a native english speaker, it's understandable, I guess). I suppose that GRRM know the expression as well. Now the question is whether Rickon will really be a shaggy dog story as the name of his direwolf hints, or if it will be the other way round - that it looks like it will be a shaggy dog story, while in fact it won't be it, if you get what I mean. This seems exactly like the play with words that GRRM might like.

Hmmm, yeah, interesting thought...

[Little Scribe of Naath]

Could be wishful thinking, but it could be that the "Shaggydog" part of Rickon's story refers to the fact that we all expect him to return in the next book with Davos, but that doesn't happen. Considering Rickon was only 5 when he left Winterfell, it is quite possible that now he loves Skagos and has adjusted well there and refuses to return. Or it could be that Davos get's derailed on the way.

There was an interesting quote in ADWD from Roose Bolton:

Only heart trees ever see half of what they do on Skagos.

Rickon's direwolf, Shaggydog is shown again and again to be subservient only to Summer, and follows his lead. It could be that Bran has to intervene to get Rickon to come back to Winterfell.

We also have the chapter in AGOT, where Tyrion comes to give the saddle design to Bran:

First Robb is seated on the throne of Winterfell, with a sword across his lap. Similar to the dead kings of Winter in the crypts.

He leaves the seat, and Bran is placed there. Then Rickon enters with the wolves, who try to attack Tyrion...and of course, Rickon calls Shaggy off only when Bran tells him to.

Could be foreshadowing for Bran being the Lord of Winterfell and Rickon returning as his heir and right-hand man only then?

 

[Xarkar]

18 hours ago, House Mosse said:

 

It won't make Jon King in the North. He is bastard born (or a legitimate Targaryan, but no one knows that at this stage), but either way he is not the Stark heir. It makes Sansa the Lady of Winterfell, and if one was to argue that the concept of The North as an independent kingdom is still valid, as Rob's heir that would make her Queen in the North. This was an episode about women becoming ruling queens. Jon SNOW may be her right hand man, but he is heir to nothing (apart from maybe the Iron Throne).

 

If we follow Westerosei monarchy, is Sansa even able to be Queen?  Daughters have always been bypassed for their brothers in the line of succession.

 

As for KitN, does it even matter if Jon is true born or not?  They are rising up in Rebellion against the ruling house. His last name means Nothing if he has the army to follow him.    

 

Spoiler

The leaks all suggest he will be pronounced KitN, so it will be interesting to see what exactly the reasoning is.  The only thing i can think of is they either find out his real last name, or know he is the only one who can lead them against the WW

 

 

[Kytheros]

6 hours ago, Xarkar said:

 

If we follow Westerosei monarchy, is Sansa even able to be Queen?  Daughters have always been bypassed for their brothers in the line of succession.

 

As for KitN, does it even matter if Jon is true born or not?  They are rising up in Rebellion against the ruling house. His last name means Nothing if he has the army to follow him.    

 

  Hide contents

The leaks all suggest he will be pronounced KitN, so it will be interesting to see what exactly the reasoning is.  The only thing i can think of is they either find out his real last name, or know he is the only one who can lead them against the WW

 

 

That's untrue. At least, per the books. In the books, the Northern view on succession is Sons before Daughters, Daughters before Brothers/Uncles. That is, a trueborn male come before a trueborn female, but trueborn children (of any gender) are before trueborn siblings. Legitimized bastards are situational.

A similar view appears to be held in the Westerlands, at least, as Cersei ends up Lady of Casterly Rock, and it doesn't pass to her uncle Kevan.

Dorne is the only place where the order of succession is by order of birth, ignoring gender.

The only time that males from collateral lines come before daughters, per the books, is the Iron Throne. And that precedent was imposed by a Great Council.

[Nerevanin]

8 hours ago, Kytheros said:

The only time that males from collateral lines come before daughters, per the books, is the Iron Throne. And that precedent was imposed by a Great Council.

You mean the council that decided that Egg would be the king?

[House Mosse]

On 22/06/2016 at 0:02 AM, Xarkar said:

 

If we follow Westerosei monarchy, is Sansa even able to be Queen?  Daughters have always been bypassed for their brothers in the line of succession.

 

As for KitN, does it even matter if Jon is true born or not?  They are rising up in Rebellion against the ruling house. His last name means Nothing if he has the army to follow him.    

 

  Hide contents

The leaks all suggest he will be pronounced KitN, so it will be interesting to see what exactly the reasoning is.  The only thing i can think of is they either find out his real last name, or know he is the only one who can lead them against the WW

 

 

"If we follow Westerosei monarchy, is Sansa even able to be Queen?"

It's nobility rather than monarchy, but in the North and across Westeros women can certainly inherit the position of great lord if they have no true born brothers. Maege Mormont, Lyanna Mormont, Lady Whent, what's her name in the Vale, etc. And as Kytheros says above, Cersie becoming The Lady of the Rock. So Sansa certainly can become the Lady of Winterfell - indeed, that is the current situation. Now that Rickon is dead, Sansa is the head of the North by Right (unless people realise Bran is still alive), and all the Northern lords owe her fealty. Jon is merely bastard brother to the Lady of Winterfell, though he still carries a certain moral weight as Ned's son.

Regarding Monarchy, I guess the Dance of Dragons was fought largely over that point, but I can't remember how it panned out. However, in A Storm of Swords, when Davos is brought from the cells under Dragonstone to see Stannis he asks Stannis why he wants the Iron Throne. Stannis says there is no want about it, as Robert's younger brother it is his by right, and it must pass to his daughter Shireen, unless Selyse bears him a son. Stannis is a stickler for the rules, so it seems certain that if the only descendent of the King is a daughter, she will be ruling Queen.

"Daughters have always been bypassed for their brothers in the line of succession."

Only trueborn brothers. Bastards are not in the line of succession at all. For instance, with the Freys, the succession is discussed a lot and the bastards are never in it. This is also why Stannis offers to legitimise Jon and make him Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North. If he is not legitimate, he cannot be these things.

"As for KitN, does it even matter if Jon is true born or not?  They are rising up in Rebellion against the ruling house. His last name means Nothing if he has the army to follow him."

I guess that's technically true, in that the guy with the biggest army will get the crown in the end. Aegon the Conqueror had no right other than might. The Blackfyre rebellions were predicated on a line of bastards and a story about the handing down of the family sword. Renly had a pop, despite being younger brother (though certainly not bastard). Having said that, legitimacy is hugely important, and in these world people believe in the sanctity of the line of succession. Jon would not be viewed as legitimate by his people. Sansa, on the other hand, is. She is the trueborn Stark heir.

Spoiler

"The leaks all suggest he will be pronounced KitN..." - do they? Which leaks? I would be interested to hear. I know that the Grand Northern Conspiracy theory predicts this, on the basis that Robb wrote a letter legitimising Jon, as was his right as King, and making him his heir. The theory is that the Northern lords have this letter, so know Jon is legitimate and their King, but are waiting to play others off against each other before springing their plan into action. However, at least by the way things are going on the show, it kind of looks like the Grand Norther Conspiracy isn't really panning out, what with Rickon's death, the Umber's betrayal, etc.

 

[xjlxking]

What's the point of Rickon? Umm..Really? Sure he has no story but you should understand that he is Jon's brother.

 

[WolfOfWinter]

Rickon's death in the show is not indicative of him dying in the books. It could go either way. Personally, I think Sansa learning to handle an unruly child in the Vale will prepare her for wild little Rickon.

[Farwynds Oceanseer]

Rickon is the one Stark who beamed down to Westeros in a red shirt.  The other dead Starks faked us out by wearing continuing character uniforms.

[NutBurz]

Why do characters need a specific point? i.i Can´t people just happen to live while big things happen around them? What´s the point of Stable Boy #24? Why every single named character needs a profound meaning? Rickon is a poor boy who had a particularly rough life and death despite his name - in fact, much because of his name. Isn´t that "point" enough? Life is sad and pointless, it´s good that some characters remind us that from time to time.

[Maryalice0919]

Now that Rickon has die, Jon will go down into the crypts. he will bury Rickon there. This is how Jon will be led down further and further down until he stumbles across the truth about his parentage.

[Lord Lyman]

9 hours ago, Maryalice0919 said:

Now that Rickon has die, Jon will go down into the crypts. he will bury Rickon there. This is how Jon will be led down further and further down until he stumbles across the truth about his parentage.

Why would he need to go further and further down when Lyanna's, Eddard's and Rickon's  tombs should be right next to each other?

[Maryalice0919]

15 hours ago, Lord Lyman said:

Why would he need to go further and further down when Lyanna's, Eddard's and Rickon's  tombs should be right next to each other?

there is a thread about it. it is really convincing. 

It’s also suggested that Jon’s dreams have him going very deep into the crypt, down the spiraling stairs with no torch to light the way, perhaps into places he had never been before. I believe that his dreams are leading him to some truth hidden in the lower collapsed levels of the Winterfell crypt.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4k261b/spoilers_everything_the_forbidden_tomb_in_the/

[bent branch]

Despite the fact that both D&D and GRRM say that the show and books will widely vary from here on out, people still continue to insist that if it happens in the show it will happen in the books. I still think Rickon's reason for existing in the books is to end up as the Lord of Winterfell at the end.

[Alex7s]

On 6/20/2016 at 0:06 PM, Smoke317 said:

Target practice...

LOL 

[Ashes Of Westeros]

On 6/26/2016 at 2:16 PM, bent branch said:

Despite the fact that both D&D and GRRM say that the show and books will widely vary from here on out, people still continue to insist that if it happens in the show it will happen in the books. I still think Rickon's reason for existing in the books is to end up as the Lord of Winterfell at the end.

I suppose the show and the books would vary in the way how the characters get their final points but not in the final points itself. At least for main characters. Probably Rickon will reappear and die later in the books.