Will the tombs reveal Jons parentage? [Spoilers]

[drayrock]

15 hours ago, triclairatops said:

The tombstone theory makes no sense because Ned wouldn't just need to protect Jon until his (Jon's) death. Ned would have to assume, prior to Jon taking the black, that it would at least be possible for him to have children of his own one day, and those children would also be secret Targs. Which means they (and all their descendants) would also be a threat to a Baratheon king and in danger if it became common knowledge.

 

Beyond that, he may have left a clue, (I personally don't think so) but he would be an idiot to leave one quite so blatant and dangerous. He saw what happened the Elia and her kids, and it made him sick enough to cause a rift with Robert. I don't think he would have inscribed Jon's death sentence on a stone and left it lying around for anyone to find. 

You are assuming that the tombstone was even meant to be found. It's creation could be a way to assuage Ned's guilt with his gods over the hurt his lie would cause others, hidden deep in the heart of winterfell past the collapsed part, never seen or explored in recent decades/centuries.

[drayrock]

On June 22, 2016 at 4:28 AM, Andrés Garcia said:

Lyanna's tomb contains a Targaryen wedding cloak.

While this is a crypt reveal, doesn't align to Ned's character. If there is a hint about Jon, it was not created to be easily found imo. It was created out of guilt and is by divine (old gods) intervention found, in order for Jon to become who he must be to stop the long night.

[drayrock]

21 hours ago, tugela said:

Lady Dustin rerouted them to be food for her dogs.

Fireeeeeeee

[triclairatops]

58 minutes ago, drayrock said:

You are assuming that the tombstone was even meant to be found. It's creation could be a way to assuage Ned's guilt with his gods over the hurt his lie would cause others, hidden deep in the heart of winterfell past the collapsed part, never seen or explored in recent decades/centuries.

If he didn't mean for it to be found, that seems like an even more stupid idea. Risk revealing a secret that was so important to him that he didn't tell his own wife (and let it drive a wedge between them for their entire married life), just to assuage his guilt? If the motivation was just to make himself feel better, but not reveal Jon's parentage, he could have just had a tomb prepared for his bastard alongside the other kids, without listing Lyanna and Rhaegar, and said screw anyone who had a problem with it. He already gave Lyanna a statue despite it being unconventional. Lord of Winterfell can make his own rules. 

[tugela]

2 hours ago, Andrés Garcia said:

The answer to your 'so what?' is in the quote you replied to. Since it escaped you, I will make it clearer:

A wedding cloak by its own may not be very good evidence, but in conjunction with some other piece of information, it may be enough in terms of story and characterization.

It still doesn't mean that Jon is Lyanna's child. As I pointed out, everyone already knows that Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar, so their relationship is no secret. You don't need a cloak to establish that, it adds nothing more. It does not even establish marriage, because he could have given Elia's cloak to her. It is not like they have their names on it, it is just a cloak with the house sigil. The marriage ceremony involves removing the brides cloak and replacing it with the grooms, to signify that she now is a member of the grooms house. witnesses are required for that, the cloak itself is insufficient.

What you do need is some evidence that Jon comes from Lyanna, and that is lacking. The only confirmation would come from someone who was actually there. Reed might suffice, but even with him all he could say is that she had a baby. Who knows who the father is. She was supposedly dying at the time and talking to Ned. Howland would not have been part of that conversation. It could be one of the Kings Guard for all he knows,

[tugela]

3 hours ago, Beric Zoolander said:

Just have a hard time thinking that Ned would keep it secret and then just have it on full display in the crypts, as much as the crypts are a maze to most and would be hard to find.  It's still there to find.  Just doesn't seem reasonable. 

It makes no sense at all to have a secret tomb for Jon, because if it was secret no one would know about it and they would therefore not bury him in it.

[drayrock]

I see your point,I just think y'all are underestimating how hidden it would actually be and the character Ned stark is. His is the old way and  I'm not talking 20 meters down from his family's tombs...like 10s of levels and levels down with the forgotten kings of winter, well passed the collapsed section.

Also the fact that Ned would make a poor decision for honors sake isn't at all unrealistic given his decision making history.

Giving Jon a place his place in the crypt would be a way for him to do the honorable thing by Jon and Lyanna that he was never able to give either of them in life. Their is a spiritual element to Ned, The Crypt, and Winterfell, I don't think it would be beyond him to do this just for honor's sake, whether it be honoring the truth of history, his own family or to assuage his guilt. Particularly if he believed it would never be found, at least for generations.

As for just putting them with everyone else, there is still an element of lying there. Nor do I think Caytelyn would allow it. Even if that didn't matter, such an open display of love for a bastard would cause suspicions to arise.

[HellasLEAF]

I'm finding it hard to believe the tombs would reveal such a thing.  I'm going to say no.  

[drayrock]

15 minutes ago, HellasLEAF said:

I'm finding it hard to believe the tombs would reveal such a thing.  I'm going to say no.  

curious what your thoughts on the tombs are then? Chekov's gun needs to be paid off. 

[drayrock]

1 hour ago, tugela said:

It makes no sense at all to have a secret tomb for Jon, because if it was secret no one would know about it and they would therefore not bury him in it.

Symbolic brah

[HellasLEAF]

2 minutes ago, drayrock said:

curious what your thoughts on the tombs are then? Chekov's gun needs to be paid off. 

Why would such a secret be hidden in plain sight is all.  Ready to be discovered should anyone venture down there..

[CrypticWeirwood]

On June 21, 2016 at 5:08 AM, TheSmallOther said:

Jon and Ghost will go out to kill LF. LF will safe his life by telling Jon about RLJ. Remember LF talking to Sansa in the crypts about Lyanna? It's quite likely he knows something.

Why would Jon go off to kill Pinkie?

 Why are they meeting under the sacred heart tree of Ned’s godswood?

That's the one that drank Maester Luwin's sacrificed blood amidst that of so very many others over its ten thousand year history.

You know, the tree with Bran's face on it.

[drayrock]

double

[drayrock]

4 hours ago, HellasLEAF said:

Why would such a secret be hidden in plain sight is all.  Ready to be discovered should anyone venture down there..

I've mentioned this in multiple posts at this point, but it wouldn't be in plain sight...

Depths of the crypts that are like 6000 years old and likely 10s of 10s of floors and caverns deep. The only reason they'd find it would be through divine intervention aka Bran/the old gods who at this point know of its existence through weirnet. Virtually unfindable otherwise. 

Let's make it clear here, the crypts are much larger than the top floor we've seen in the show where the MOST recent Starks are buried....Stark line goes back before the white walkers who invaded 6000 years ago. 

[HellasLEAF]

Well, I'm not saying it's easy to find.  

Just that it potentially being there is interesting, a little surprising.  And I don't know what the entirety of this crypt looks like surely.

He could very well find out that way.  I just hope Bran is involved in some way.  

[Drago]

The tomb theory is a good one. It could explain why there is a Tomb there for Lyanna in the first place. It has been explained that only the Lords get a place there from what I Remember. What better place to hide anything which would could confirm Jon's parents than to hide it in plain sight away from Robert Baratheon and the rest of the Vultures. Really only the Starks goes down with the odd Visitor so it makes sense.

There would need to be a marriage Cloak, a decree from Rhaegar himself stating that he indeed Married her, some possession of his like the Harp or maybe as some others have posited that Rhaegar may have found Dark Sister, one of the ancestral swords. It would also make sense if he left a decree, one for a boy and one for a girl depending on the sex of the baby when born to cover any event.

We know Rhaegar wasn't there for the birth so he must of prepared some document to protect his Child, I would expect nothing less of a Prince to do so.

[CalvoHobbo]

19 hours ago, tugela said:

Not according the faith currently held by most Westerosi. While it is true that some kings hundreds of years previous had multiple wives, it was hundreds of years previous, and they were kings (who can do whatever they please). Rhaegar was not a king and hence bound by social custom and practice in force in contemporary society.

Also, for a marriage to be valid among highborn families, it would have to have been properly witnessed. It would also require the consent of the brides family, which clearly was not given as judged by the reaction of her father and brother. Not to mention, any highborn marriage had to be approved by the king before it could happen. Plus she was already betrothed to another. There is absolutely nothing to indicate that any such marriage was witnessed.

so, there are many strikes against:

1) It violated social custom.

2) It lacked consent from the brides family.

3) The king did not consent for the marriage to happen.

4) Lyanna was already betrothed, and that would have to be undone first before she could marry someone else.

5) No one witnessed it

It is reasonable to conclude then that no such legitimate marriage took place.

The opening post in this thread explains the answers to all of your points :

 

[farm_ecology]

14 hours ago, drayrock said:

curious what your thoughts on the tombs are then? Chekov's gun needs to be paid off. 

I dont see the Crypts as a Chekov's gun, especially not in the show. 

[MtnLion]

20 hours ago, tugela said:

Rhaella had a child, but that doesn't mean it lived. The theory regarding Daenerys is that she was Rhaegar's bastard, and was switched with Rhaella's stillborn child at birth in order to make her legitimate, since then she would have a claim to the throne which she otherwise would not have. That would have been very important to Targaryen loyalists looking to some future re-instatement of the dynasty. It would have been done for political reasons, and kept secret for the same reasons.

Aside from the theory, we only have Daenerys' words to vouch for her lineage, and GRRM tells us that, "words are wind."  Any selection, at the end of the story, will rely on what is known and what has been set as precendence.  One line in the deliberations from Great Councils excludes Daenerys, entirely.  No woman, and no female line's child (which would exclude Robert, too*).  I can see the Great Council turning a blind eye to one of the exclusions, if there is no alternative.  But, Jon Snow Targaryen is a viable alternative, unless someone can disprove his claim of legitimacy.  (I don't think that Jon Snow wants the throne, and that is part of the storyline.  Everyone wants the throne, except the person entitled to it.) 

*Robert was made king, because his grandmother was a Targaryen, and he was seated on the throne presumably by an impromptu Great Council of Stark, Arryn, Lannister, Tully. 

[MtnLion]

27 minutes ago, farm_ecology said:

I dont see the Crypts as a Chekov's gun, especially not in the show. 

I see Lyanna's statue as Chekov's gun in the screenplay.  How many times have we seen scenes of it?  At least three.  Why is her hand out and palm up?  I have wondered every time I have seen that statue. 

There is no doubt that the crypts are Chekov's gun in the books.  Jon must go down there, but the old Kings of Winter tell him to leave because he is not a Stark and does not belong.