Jon Cannot Be Angry With Sansa

[OldGimletEye]

5 minutes ago, Risto said:

Yeah, the problem is that LF won't be so easy as Ramsay... This LF is on some sort of path of atonement and we will see how Sansa will pay for the victory. That is the part people forget. She had to promise something to get something. And if she ends up with that perv, I will truly go nuts

Well maybe Sandor shows up and remembers LF betraying Ned and then LF mysteriously has a really bad accident. Like, I don't know, falling down a flight of stairs or something.

But, LF with Sansa. Fuck no. Even Tyrion with Sansa is better than that. And that is saying a lot.

[WSmith84]

20 minutes ago, Risto said:

Nah, it was vengeance and they were both OK with Sansa killing him. Or at least, that is what actors and producers told us regarding that scene.

Oh I know. I just think it would have been the smart thing to do, whilst also satisfying Sansa and Jon's craving for vengeance. Making the thing official sends a message I think; Sansa is the Warden of the North/Queen of the North (whichever option they're plumping for) and Ramsey's execution is her first order. Hell, she could invoke Ned Stark's name and mention his 'man who passes the sentence' stance and do the deed herself. Might be messy, mind.

[rosehustle1]

1 minute ago, Risto said:

Yeah, the problem is that LF won't be so easy as Ramsay... This LF is on some sort of path of atonement and we will see how Sansa will pay for the victory. That is the part people forget. She had to promise something to get something. And if she ends up with that perv, I will truly go nuts

It seems that you don't get it. You are asking completely wrong question. This show has never been strong on logic, but this year is even worse. What Sansa said to Jon was true. And, let we not forget, she was saving Jon's life by understanding she can't help Rickon. She had to make a choice and she did. Her facial expression speaks volumes. It is not easy to admit, but that had to be said. The intention of the scene (according to what actors and producers have been speaking about the episode) is to show that Sansa truly understands Ramsay in ways Jon doesn't.

Yes, Jon could have changed the tactics. But he would still be played like a fiddle by Ramsay and he would have still endangered himself and his army. Sansa didn't risk Rickon's life, she just recognized he was beyond saving. Which was completely true. Rickon was only living so Jon could have been manipulated. And he was.

My point is that they did not show this realization in a way that made any sense. They have one scene where she is saying we need to fight for Rickon and then on the eve of battle she just gives up. We needed to see the steady change in between those two possibilities. And if Sansa felt she knew Ramsay so well then why didn't she tell Jon anything about his tactics and mind games long before the day of battle? When he asked her point blank what were her ideas, a great time to tell him about the LF Vale situation, she again omits this information and instead just says that Ramsay plays games. Why wasn't this more pertinent information for her to give Jon weeks before this moment? And why didn't she actually give him a real example of what Ramsay has done i.e. the lady that tried to help her last year. The writers have really butchered this character. She makes no sense at all. Again, she has no right to keep important information like that to herself when that could have changed Jon's entire warfare strategy. Hell, she sent that message weeks before. If she told him then about it as a possibility they may have went straight to White Harbor which actually had more troops than Bear Island. The potential of a Vale army may have made it easier to negotiate with Manderly and then gain the other Northern houses. They'd actually have leverage. The Northern houses would feel more secure in aiding a side that looks as though it could actually win.

[Mladen]

1 minute ago, OldGimletEye said:

But, LF with Sansa. Fuck no. Even Tyrion with Sansa is better than that. And that is saying a lot.

Oh, I know... But it will be interesting seeing Sansa getting out of his claws, once and for all.

1 minute ago, WSmith84 said:

Oh I know. I just think it would have been the smart thing to do, whilst also satisfying Sansa and Jon's craving for vengeance. Making the thing official sends a message I think; Sansa is the Warden of the North/Queen of the North (whichever option they're plumping for) and Ramsey's execution is her first order. Hell, she could invoke Ned Stark's name and mention his 'man who passes the sentence' stance and do the deed herself. Might be messy, mind.

Well, she did pass the sentence... Only her sword were the puppies

Yeah, I get what you say. But unfortunately, show doesn't care about those things.

3 minutes ago, rosehustle1 said:

My point is that they did not show this realization in a way that made any sense. They have one scene where she is saying we need to fight for Rickon and then on the eve of battle she just gives up. We needed to see the steady change in between those two possibilities. And if Sansa felt she knew Ramsay so well then why didn't she tell Jon anything about his tactics and mind games long before the day of battle? When he asked her point blank what were her ideas, a great time to tell him about the LF Vale situation, she again omits this information and instead just says that Ramsay plays games. Why wasn't this more pertinent information for her to give Jon weeks before this moment? And why didn't she actually give him a real example of what Ramsay has done i.e. the lady that tried to help her last year. The writers have really butchered this character. She makes no sense at all. Again, she has no right to keep important information like that to herself when that could have changed Jon's entire warfare strategy. Hell, she sent that message weeks before. If she told him then about it as a possibility they may have went straight to White Harbor which actually had more troops than Bear Island. The potential of a Vale army may have made it easier to negotiate with Manderly and then gain the other Northern houses. They'd actually have leverage. The Northern houses would feel more secure in aiding a side that looks as though it could actually win.

Oh, I understand everything... It is just that I can't offer any answers when the logic is so shady... That is why analyzing this season has become such nightmare. I wholeheartedly believe that producers' idea was to make both Starks victorious and to join them together and somehow (well, we know how) it didn't translate to the screen.

[rosehustle1]

2 minutes ago, Risto said:

Oh, I know... But it will be interesting seeing Sansa getting out of his claws, once and for all.

Well, she did pass the sentence... Only her sword were the puppies

Yeah, I get what you say. But unfortunately, show doesn't care about those things.

Oh, I understand everything... It is just that I can't offer any answers when the logic is so shady... That is why analyzing this season has become such nightmare. I wholeheartedly believe that producers' idea was to make both Starks victorious and to join them together and somehow (well, we know how) it didn't translate to the screen.

Yeah, that's what annoys me about the writers. They should think about the implications of the decisions and behaviors of their characters. It really feels like they are only submitting first drafts as scripts. There doesn't seem to be any double checking, cohesiveness, or logic within the world of the show anymore. No one is acting in character at all. The characters just do things and then the next plot starts. But the motivations should matter and the audience shouldn't have to go through all these mental gymnastics to make sense of it.

[Dragonslack]

Both made mistakes you say? She asked him to go save rickon, and then fuck rickon and dont try to save him if a chance is given? Much better than having a noose on your neck and a sword out of reach. First refuses lfs help for free and then begs for it. The girl is mad and deceptfull.

Ok help me, tell me what you know he says but she just confesses that she knows less than nothing.

Wants to be safe but sends brienne away on a wild goose chase, the message to lf could have been intercepted too. Without jamie she would probablie die.

Some keep mentioning rape like its theon 2.0 but remember she went willingly and said yes to the marriage and did not handle her husband at all or for example get protection from roose. You know what happens on the wedding night, whats expected? Lf the whore house owner would have handled the ramsay sue.

[Ice Spider]

9 hours ago, watcher of the night said:

How did she? She throw Jon under the bus, she used him as a bait with his whole army. Had the Vale arrived half an hour later they would have been all dead.

I still can't believe how utterly clueless some people on here are in regards to how the battle would have played out pulling assumptions out of thin air. You have no idea what Jon would have done with the info and he had every right to know it.

An excellent post to show just how mind numbingly stupid and short sighted you really are. The only one pulling assumptions (and in your case it's not the air) out of anywhere is you.

The only reason Ramsay has his forces deployed outslde of WF is because of his superior strength in numbers.

Are you honestly stupid enough to believe had Jon waited, met with the Vale forces, formulated a plan with their commanders, their presence would have went unnoticed? Come on man!

So, when faced with the blatantly obvious, we know what Ramsay would have done. Holed up in Winterfell and fought from a defensive position. Fighting this way he could have prolonged the battle for months, if not years!

So what happens in years, Mr. Rocket scientist? Oh golly gee whiz, batman, maybe before the battle is over the wall comes done and all of a sudden Jon's forces have the Bolton's on one side, and the Others and the wights on the other side. Brilliant!!!

I know it's difficult, but try grasping the bigger picture?

It's not Sansa that got the bulk of his forces crucified, it's Jon's dumb ass for not sticking to his plan in the first place. Picture how the battle would have unfolded if Jon had maintained his position as planned, Ramsay's forces went on the offensive, and then the Vale forces swept in and surrounded them?

This is not an argument whether Sansa was justified or not, but the direct consequences of her actions and how they effected the battle. She set a trap. She won. You loose.

[Kusanagi]

22 minutes ago, Ice Spider said:

An excellent post to show just how mind numbingly stupid and short sighted you really are. The only one pulling assumptions (and in your case it's not the air) out of anywhere is you.

The only reason Ramsay has his forces deployed outslde of WF is because of his superior strength in numbers.

Are you honestly stupid enough to believe had Jon waited, met with the Vale forces, formulated a plan with their commanders, their presence would have went unnoticed? Come on man!

So, when faced with the blatantly obvious, we know what Ramsay would have done. Holed up in Winterfell and fought from a defensive position. Fighting this way he could have prolonged the battle for months, if not years!

So what happens in years, Mr. Rocket scientist? Oh golly gee whiz, batman, maybe before the battle is over the wall comes done and all of a sudden Jon's forces have the Bolton's on one side, and the Others and the wights on the other side. Brilliant!!!

I know it's difficult, but try grasping the bigger picture?

It's not Sansa that got the bulk of his forces crucified, it's Jon's dumb ass for not sticking to his plan in the first place. Picture how the battle would have unfolded if Jon had maintained his position as planned, Ramsay's forces went on the offensive, and then the Vale forces swept in and surrounded them?

This is not an argument whether Sansa was justified or not, but the direct consequences of her actions and how they effected the battle. She set a trap. She won. You loose.

She set a trap without the commander knowing? Try to do that in real life army and see what will happen.

What would happen if she tells Jon there is a Vale army coming? Jon would find ways to coordinate and setup a good defensive position wouldn't he?

Could Jon hide the Vale army from Ramsay if he knows? Yes, that's call strategy, and Ramsay is dumb enough to not know they are coming anyway?

The whole point about it is that this is just pure dumb writing. The writers didn't think it through. There is no bigger picture or anything, they just want their deus ex machina and they sacrificed logic to accomplish that.

[Kytheros]

It genuinely feels like the writers started their work for the entire season 6 Northern plotline with a single scene: "Jon and loyal Stark forces are encircled by Ramsay and Bolton forces; Littlefinger and Knights of the Vale come in to save the day, ala the Rohirrim at Helm's Deep and the Battle of the Pelennor Fields from Lord of the Rings" - and they worked backwards from there, and seriously dropped the ball on internal consistency, maintaining continuity, and all semblance of logic.

Hell, for that matter, the writers contradicted themselves in this very season - Roose and Ramsay say the Glovers retook Deepwood Motte on their own/with other Houses - and that that was a potential problem for them/their control of the North; Glover rejects Jon and Sansa saying the Boltons helped him retake Deepwood Motte.

From everything we know about the North - just from the show prior to this season - almost nothing in the Northern plotline should have happened the way it did. "Bear Island knows no King but the King in the North whose name is Stark" - what the hell happened to that?
Before it happened, if you'd told me that an Umber would give Ramsay Bolton Rickon Stark and the head of his direwolf, I'd've laughed and called you crazy, drunk, and/or high on something.
Before it happened, if you'd told me that Jon and Sansa combined would only be able to get a couple hundred Northerners from Stark-loyalists (and only men from three or four named Houses) to support their cause, I'd've laughed, called you crazy, drunk, and/or high on something, and quite possibly in need of medical attention.

 

[Kusanagi]

36 minutes ago, Kytheros said:

It genuinely feels like the writers started their work for the entire season 6 Northern plotline with a single scene: "Jon and loyal Stark forces are encircled by Ramsay and Bolton forces; Littlefinger and Knights of the Vale come in to save the day, ala the Rohirrim at Helm's Deep and the Battle of the Pelennor Fields from Lord of the Rings" - and they worked backwards from there, and seriously dropped the ball on internal consistency, maintaining continuity, and all semblance of logic.

Hell, for that matter, the writers contradicted themselves in this very season - Roose and Ramsay say the Glovers retook Deepwood Motte on their own/with other Houses - and that that was a potential problem for them/their control of the North; Glover rejects Jon and Sansa saying the Boltons helped him retake Deepwood Motte.

From everything we know about the North - just from the show prior to this season - almost nothing in the Northern plotline should have happened the way it did. "Bear Island knows no King but the King in the North whose name is Stark" - what the hell happened to that?
Before it happened, if you'd told me that an Umber would give Ramsay Bolton Rickon Stark and the head of his direwolf, I'd've laughed and called you crazy, drunk, and/or high on something.
Before it happened, if you'd told me that Jon and Sansa combined would only be able to get a couple hundred Northerners from Stark-loyalists (and only men from three or four named Houses) to support their cause, I'd've laughed, called you crazy, drunk, and/or high on something, and quite possibly in need of medical attention.

 

I didn't follow much of the season because of bad writing. Once I learned that it was Umber leading the infantry, my jaw was dropped. I half expected that Umber would betray Bolton right there on the field, but that would be too clever for this show.

[watcher of the night]

On 2016. 06. 26. at 7:26 AM, Ice Spider said:

An excellent post to show just how mind numbingly stupid and short sighted you really are. The only one pulling assumptions (and in your case it's not the air) out of anywhere is you.

The only reason Ramsay has his forces deployed outslde of WF is because of his superior strength in numbers.

Are you honestly stupid enough to believe had Jon waited, met with the Vale forces, formulated a plan with their commanders, their presence would have went unnoticed? Come on man!

So, when faced with the blatantly obvious, we know what Ramsay would have done. Holed up in Winterfell and fought from a defensive position. Fighting this way he could have prolonged the battle for months, if not years!

So what happens in years, Mr. Rocket scientist? Oh golly gee whiz, batman, maybe before the battle is over the wall comes done and all of a sudden Jon's forces have the Bolton's on one side, and the Others and the wights on the other side. Brilliant!!!

I know it's difficult, but try grasping the bigger picture?

It's not Sansa that got the bulk of his forces crucified, it's Jon's dumb ass for not sticking to his plan in the first place. Picture how the battle would have unfolded if Jon had maintained his position as planned, Ramsay's forces went on the offensive, and then the Vale forces swept in and surrounded them?

This is not an argument whether Sansa was justified or not, but the direct consequences of her actions and how they effected the battle. She set a trap. She won. You loose.

This is an excellent post to show that you are unable to conduct a civilized debate and to show your lack of arguments (though I might be naive to expect civilized manners and rational arguments in an internet debate).

If one strips your post of personal insults and unwarranted assumptions we get two short sentences:

" She set a trap. She won. "

Aye, it was a trap but who was the bait? Guess what it was Jon. Jon just as anyone being used as a bait without his knowledge had every reason to be angry. That is all.

[Ice Spider]

On ‎7‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 2:46 AM, watcher of the night said:

This is an excellent post to show that you are unable to conduct a civilized debate and to show your lack of arguments (though I might be naive to expect civilized manners and rational arguments in an internet debate).

If one strips your post of personal insults and unwarranted assumptions we get two short sentences:

" She set a trap. She won. "

Aye, it was a trap but who was the bait? Guess what it was Jon. Jon just as anyone being used as a bait without his knowledge had every reason to be angry. That is all.

Wrong again, re-read and try again.

[watcher of the night]

On 2016. 07. 04. at 6:35 AM, Ice Spider said:

Wrong again, re-read and try again.

Why should I re-read you list of insults? Rewrite it, strip off the insults, present your argument in a civilized manner and I will read it.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

Sansa asked the BF and the LF for help. A Brianne isn't present during the battle she is apparently not back from her trip yet, so no answer from the BF. Or probably the news about Edmure's yield and BF's death already reched them with a raven. Not clear.

It isn't clear from the show if Sansa got a reply from LF too. Sansa could hope that LF would support her because he felt guilty but she's aware he won't do anything just out of humanity. I don't think she bore any ill will, she wasn't sure that the help will come.