So what is Sansa's plan? (Possible spoilers)

[Nerevanin]

4 hours ago, tinka10 said:

I had the same impression during that shot. She looked very smug until she saw Jon. "Oh, you're still alive?" Wanting Winterfell for herself would explain why she refused to tell him about the Vale.

That seem certain. I think it's clear that Sansa is playing a different game then Jon, she wants to be the Lady of Winterfell and rule, while Jon is getting in her way. She more or less used him in the Bastardbowl and it is possible that she wanted to sacrifice him there. I remember that in the episode in which she met LF, she later said something like "the lords would support a true Stark" by which she clearly meant herself because after that she said something like "oh, and Jon is Ned's bastard". I'm pretty sure that the Vale army was supposed to be Sansa's ace hidden in her sleeve, unfortunately she had to play it earlier than she apparently wanted to. Jon dared to survive the battle which possibly spoiled Sansa's plan and if Jon somehow manages to seize the power for himself, well... I expect Sansa to join the dark side of the Force.

EDIT: It'd be actually pretty cool to have two Stark children as rivals.

[IrisBest]

God not more of this "Sansa wanted Jon dead" nonsense. There's nothing remotely accurate about this and it's delusional at best and trolling at worst.

[Dalia]

26 minutes ago, IrisBest said:

God not more of this "Sansa wanted Jon dead" nonsense. There's nothing remotely accurate about this and it's delusional at best and trolling at worst.

They apparently know more about the character's motives than the writers and the actress who plays her.

[IrisBest]

6 minutes ago, Dalia said:

They apparently know more about the character's motives than the writers and the actress who plays her.

I can just imagine the disdain Sophie must have for these people lmao. 

[caravaggio]

Get LF to marry her.

Tell everyone Ramsay's baby belongs to LF.

Kill LF.

Inherit Harrenhall.

[Dalia]

11 minutes ago, IrisBest said:

I can just imagine the disdain Sophie must have for these people lmao. 

It's gotta be frustrating. There aren't enough facepalms in the world for the latest delusions.

[Lord Freypie]

5 minutes ago, IrisBest said:

I can just imagine the disdain Sophie must have for these people lmao. 

If her change of expression gave so many people the impression she wanted Jon's dead when it wasn't the intent she can only blame her acting and the episode's director.

Personnally I'm not sure what was the intent. Perhaps they wanted her to look worried because Jon was pursuing Ramsay taking more risks, and she looked unhappy to see him instead. Perhaps the end of her smile was supposed to be out of guilt for having let Jon with no information. Perhaps people screaming "dark Sansa" are right.   Just don't know.

[Cas Stark]

20 minutes ago, Dalia said:

They apparently know more about the character's motives than the writers and the actress who plays her.

Sophie Turner wants Sansa to sit the Iron Throne and have Littlefinger as her hand.  

[Lord Freypie]

3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Sophie Turner wants Sansa to sit the Iron Throne and have Littlefinger as her hand.  

No she wanted Sansa to die a dramatic death and LF to sit the throne.

"I want her to get revenge. I want her to avenge her family’s death and everything. But then I kind of want her to die at the end because I want a big death scene. I want her to die and I want Littlefinger to end up on the throne. I don’t really care about anyone else. "

Or has she expressed different wishes in other interviews ?

[IrisBest]

7 minutes ago, Lord Freypie said:

If her change of expression gave so many people the impression she wanted Jon's dead when it wasn't the intent she can only blame her acting and the episode's director.

Personnally I'm not sure what was the intent. Perhaps they wanted her to look worried because Jon was pursuing Ramsay taking more risks, and she looked unhappy to see him instead. Perhaps the end of her smile was supposed to be out of guilt for having let Jon with no information. Perhaps people screaming "dark Sansa" are right.   Just don't know.

No, they're not right. She was both relieved to see him alive and worried to see him charging headfirst into the castle. And Sophie has literally commented on this already, she's said Jon and Sansa have had typical sibling arguments but they "have each other's back" ultimately. That is the intent. That is what is going on. There is no nefarious scheming or betraying going on. Period. 

[Dalia]

10 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Sophie Turner wants Sansa to sit the Iron Throne and have Littlefinger as her hand.  

I'm not talking about what Sophie Turner wants.

[Dalia]

9 minutes ago, Lord Freypie said:

Or has she expressed different wishes in other interviews ?

"At the end of the day, Sansa and Jon have each other’s backs."

[Cas Stark]

If Sansa had Jon's back, she wouldn't have allowed him to attack WF without mentioning there was a Vale army at Moat Cailin...

 

[Lady Claire]

She had the perfect chance to tell Jon about the letter to LF, but she intentionally didn't; she criticized Jon and let him and his army go to a certain slaughter. She gave up on Rickon, but used him to convince Jon to go to war.

I don't understand why Sansa acted this way. She doesn't trust anyone, ok, but she trusts LF! The man who betrayed her father and who's behind everything that's happened since the beginning. Sansa knows it, but she prefers confiding in him than Jon. 

Actually after the reunion she admitted of having been awful to Jon in the past, probably she was very similar to her mother. I don't think Sansa would kill Jon for getting Winterfell for herself, but in the same time I have difficulties imaging her happy with Jon as the new Lord Stark of Winterfell. 

[Bear Claw]

Sansa is like Scarlet O'Hara to a point. She loves her land, but she still loves her family too. She was upset when Rickon's body was brought into Winterfell  because  that  is when she asked Jon about Ramsey. I don't think telling Jon about the Vale would have helped. She knows LF just as well as she knows Ramsey. LF was never going to hand the Vale army to Jon, or work with Jon in the battle. It was always a separate force that was only going to come in at the last second. She is angry with Jon because he didn't get more men, and now she has to go to LF for help. Remember they spoke to Lord Glover. Rob was unwilling to make personal sacrifices. She doesn't want to repeat this mistake. She didn't want to go to LF, but if she thinks it will save Winterfell, she will do it. I  don't think she has a real plan at this point, but I think she will be satisfied if there is a Stark in Winterfell.

[LastManStanding]

On 6/21/2016 at 10:52 AM, robasp2 said:

She couldnt convince Jon because Jon is not a person like that. "Leave Rickon, he is already dead"

He was just like his father. With even a slightest chance Jon would take it. He will NOT ever leave his brother to die. Nor would he let Sansa die if it was the other way round.

Sansa saw the bigger picture. Maybe a little heartless. If she confessed to Jon, the vale army could have attacked from multiple directions once Rickon was released. A chaos would follow and he could have been saved. {Just my idea. There may be better ways}

But leaving your brother to die even if there was a slim chance is not Jons way. And when asked to give a plan, she just says

"I dont know. Just dont do what he wants you to do". Vague advice was not useful. A clear advice that LF was coming ir atleast more information would have been a start.

Moreover, it was not Jon but Davos who charged.

Rickon was NEVER going to live. She did say leave him, she said he was going to die and he should prepare for that. Doesn't matter how many men they had, Rickon was dead. Jon would have done the same thing with the Vale and they would have lost.  It was useful advice if he listened. How was it vague? Don't do the obvious thing that he wants you to do, and he did EXACTLY what Ramsey expected. It was useful if he had listened. He charged, so of course his army would charge. He would have died if they didn't. 

[LastManStanding]

On 6/21/2016 at 4:28 PM, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

Tell me exactly what she told Jon as valid at all? Like did she tell him exactly what Ramsay would do? No she didn't. It's the same as my mom told me to be careful whenever I ride my bike. But what exactly I should do to stay safe she doesn't tell because she doesn't know how to ride herself. Lol

If your mother tells you to be careful an then you cross the road with a care speeding towards you, that is not being careful. Anyone with a brain would know that you don't charge an army by yourself and that Ramsey was obviously taunting. 

[Morgain]

Sansa from the start was a self centered and ambitious girl. She wanted to be a KL princess so she concealed what Joffrey did and betrayed Arya's friend boy. In KL she followed her fantasy prince, coseyed up to Cersei and betrayed her father's discoveries about Robert. Ned was executed by Joffrey who tortured Sansa, as did Ramsay. She learned that "no one can protect me" and from LF that she is a pawn to be used. So she knows she has to be ruthless and focused to a) survive, b ) gain a queenship, in the North preferably.

She learned from Cat her mother to despise Jon as her father's bastard. When she reunited with Jon she loved the link with him to her safe childhood, a fragment. He wasn't Rob, or the other true brothers she loved. But he was something - and very useful to regain Winterfell. That's why she went to him. Also for Rickon because she did not know Ramsay had Rickon then.

Jon is weak as a commander (a good man, but a weak commander because he acts on honour and impulse far too much). In principle as commander, she should have given him the Vale info but it would have done no good. He'd have wasted it under Ramsay's games (just as he wasted what he already had).  She saw that he was too weak to outwit Ramsay so it was all up to her.

She tried, gave him a chance. She did not humiliate herself competing for his attention in front of others. She;s too proud for that. She waited to be private, then reproached him for not looking to her for counsel. He answered well, inviting it now. She gave him excellent advice; do NOT do whatever Ramsay wants you to do. he brushed it aside. She knew he would get in a mess, because he is honorable and loyal, so Ramsay would play him. Similarly by now she knew Ramsay had Rickon as prisoner, so Rickon was good as dead. If it was left up to Jon they were doomed, with or without the Vale. She keeps the Vale resource to herself, because it was up to her to play both Jon and LF's Vale armies to win.

Which she did, knowing she had taken up the challenge of an arch-manipulator. Jon stopped short of killing Ramsay and gave that death to her. She liked it, naturally. Abused by violence and head games by a series of people this is a much needed catharsis for her.

Now she will marry Robyn of the Vale. Not LF because the Vale will want her for Robyn. LF will wait to get her, planning to kill or discredit Robyn carefully (maybe make him act obviously nuts). But when that happens Tyrion will be back and will claim Sansa, or she may find it useful to claim him: their KL marriage. Tyrion at his best can outplay LF. Sansa may possibly by then see that Tyrion has never abused her, and she could maybe see beyond appearances to his value, a man who can be brave, clever, kind (to her) and funny. She can understand his bitterness, his drinking, his abused complex. He in turn will be drawn to the lost girl combined with a powerful woman, they are a matched pair. He can accept her violence to Ramsay. He likes women in spite of his immature addiction to prostitutes which is because he feels he cannot get a woman without paying (many men think that but he has good reason in how his father kicked his head). They will make a powerful couple in the next series.

 

[Save the Direwolves]

if some gracious soul could create a gif of that scene in Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome where they escape from the prison/pig sty on a train and Max looks at the crazy dude and is like "What's the Plan?" and he replies "PLAN? Ain't no plan!" with John Snow's and Sansa's faces photo-shopped on I would be eternally grateful.

I'd do it myself but I sadly lack both the software and the skills

[OldGimletEye]

4 hours ago, Morgain said:

Jon is weak as a commander (a good man, but a weak commander because he acts on honour and impulse far too much). In principle as commander, she should have given him the Vale info but it would have done no good. He'd have wasted it under Ramsay's games (just as he wasted what he already had).  She saw that he was too weak to outwit Ramsay so it was all up to her.

She tried, gave him a chance. She did not humiliate herself competing for his attention in front of others. She;s too proud for that. She waited to be private, then reproached him for not looking to her for counsel. He answered well, inviting it now. She gave him excellent advice; do NOT do whatever Ramsay wants you to do. he brushed it aside. She knew he would get in a mess, because he is honorable and loyal, so Ramsay would play him. Similarly by now she knew Ramsay had Rickon as prisoner, so Rickon was good as dead. If it was left up to Jon they were doomed, with or without the Vale. She keeps the Vale resource to herself, because it was up to her to play both Jon and LF's Vale armies to win.

 

Okay, a few things here:

Maybe Jon should have been more explicit in getting Sansa's input. But the fact of the matter is that pinning this all on Jon is crap. Sansa, for whatever reason, had her trust issue with Jon. Most likely her trust issues had to do with LF's suggestion that Jon was her "half-brother". Sansa's reasons for not trusting Jon do not seem to be that great. Accordingly, maybe Jon deserves come criticism her, But, so does Sansa.

And if Sansa is going to berate Jon for not trusting her advice, then she really needs to trust Jon. Otherwise she comes off as a big old hypocrite. The trust and confidence she wants from Jon is not a one way street. Evidently, Sansa thinks it is. Hopefully she will grow up a little and see that.

And other than telling Jon he needed more troops, something that Jon already knows, there doesn't seem to be any indication that Sansa has grave doubts about Jon's abilities as a commander. She herself admits she knows little about planning battles.

Her advice to Jon, while not totally irrelevant, is hardly "great". It really isn't on point with regard to the actual tactical problem at hand, which was how to avoid getting Jon's army being overwhelmed by Ramsay's superior numbers and cavalry. Any reasonable competent tactical commander, looking at the situation, probably would have come to the conclusion that Jon's army must remain in a strong defensive position and must not break formation. It's not like Sansa offered up some advice about how to make the best use of terrain in order to maintain a strong defensive position.

And there is no reason to suppose that if Jon had the Vale Army he would have lost to Ramsay, since Ramsay wouldn't have a significant advantage in cavalry and in numbers. And in fact, it may have been Ramsay who was outnumbered. While Jon fucked up in the battle, I don't think he is that bad of a commander. Also, there is no reason to suppose had Jon known about the Vale forces that Jon would have been in overall command of both forces. LF or Bronze Yohn may have very well balked at such an arrangement.

The upshot here is that maybe Jon deserve to take some blame here. But, Sansa isn't exactly free of guilt here either. She can't go around complaining that Jon doesn't trust her advice, but then go around not trusting Jon for some dubious reason. She wants Jon to respect her, but then for some reason doesn't feel she should reciprocate that respect back.