So what is Sansa's plan? (Possible spoilers)

[Cas Stark]

WTF, she tells him, straight out she knows nothing about tactics, LOL.  All she knows is don't do what Ramsay wants.  

She disqualifies herself right there, out of her own mouth, as having anything AT ALL to contribute that is worthwhile....except about that Vale army which she keeps secret because apparently Ramsay was right, and she's now a deceitful freakish weirdo.

[OldGimletEye]

5 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

snip

If Sansa had significant doubts about Jon's abilities as a commander, then really should have expressed that opinion to Jon. It may have hurt Jon's feelings, but at least it's honest and to the point and avoids any, "nana nana I have a secret" bullshit.

[Morgain]

5 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

WTF, she tells him, straight out she knows nothing about tactics, LOL.  All she knows is don't do what Ramsay wants.  

She disqualifies herself right there, out of her own mouth, as having anything AT ALL to contribute that is worthwhile....except about that Vale army which she keeps secret because apparently Ramsay was right, and she's now a deceitful freakish weirdo.

It was totally central that Jon not trust Ramsay, not do what Ramsay wants him to do. Which Jon brushes off when Sansa says it. Yet Jon did just that, and only survived himself due to blind luck/ plot armour.

Sansa was quite right to say she could not advise on battle tactics. That was Jon's strength not hers. But that strength became nothing because he plunged into a pointless rescue for Rickon and pulled his army in after him So they got surrounded. Ramsay gamed him just as Sansa warned he would.

Clearly Ramsay wanted Jon to try to rescue Rickon. That is precisely what Jon should NOT have done, which Sansa would have known. It was precisely what Jon HAD to do, because he's Jon, a man of honour and loyalty. Which Sansa also knew. She couldn't know exactly how Ramsay would do it, but she knew he would offer Jon something to do which Jon would want to do. So she warned Jon accordingly and he refused to listen. he only wanted to think like a fighter, straight, honest. Not like  strategist.

 

[Cas Stark]

Just now, OldGimletEye said:

If Sansa had significant doubts about Jon as a commander, then really should have expressed that opinion to Jon. It may have hurt Jon's feelings, but at least it's honest and to the point and avoids any, "nana nana I have a secret" bullshit.

Yeah, but this is all meaningless. There is no reason why Sansa turned into a traitor except the show wanted it to be a tad more suspenseful w/the Vale army and then set up the next scene with LF.

There is no organic in universe reason for anyone in this plot to be acting the way they have acted...started with Sansa and LF leaving the Vale last season.  The entire thing is just about the writers getting the characters to do what they want.  There is no reason why.

There is no doubts Sansa has about Jon, there is no reason for her actions at all except the writers wrote it that way. 

[OldGimletEye]

8 minutes ago, Morgain said:

It was totally central that Jon not trust Ramsay, not do what Ramsay wants him to do. Which Jon brushes off when Sansa says it. Yet Jon did just that, and only survived himself due to blind luck/ plot armour.

Sansa was quite right to say she could not advise on battle tactics. That was Jon's strength not hers. But that strength became nothing because he plunged into a pointless rescue for Rickon and pulled his army in after him So they got surrounded. Ramsay gamed him just as Sansa warned he would.

Clearly Ramsay wanted Jon to try to rescue Rickon. That is precisely what Jon should NOT have done, which Sansa would have known. It was precisely what Jon HAD to do, because he's Jon, a man of honour and loyalty. Which Sansa also knew. She couldn't know exactly how Ramsay would do it, but she knew he would offer Jon something to do which Jon would want to do. So she warned Jon accordingly and he refused to listen. he only wanted to think like a fighter, straight, honest. Not like  strategist.

 

None of this really justifies Sansa's lack of trust in Jon though. And it's particularly irritating when Sansa wants to piss and moan about Jon's lack of confidence in her, but then she fails to give that same confidence in Jon. She can't have it both ways.

[OldGimletEye]

9 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

There is no doubts Sansa has about Jon, there is no reason for her actions at all except the writers wrote it that way. 

The reality based community knows this. Still, there are those fan theories out there that assume there is some logical reason to all this. 

[Morgain]

3 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

None of this really justifies Sansa's lack of trust in Jon though. 

If I know someone is not going to hold their cool, is predictably going to crash into emotion stuff if someone clever yanks their cord - then I'm not going to trust that person in anything that requires cool thinking.

I might feel sentimental about them due to the past. I might respect their courage, and their battle ability around dtstraight fighting and deployment (tactics). But I'm still left with that fatal weakness, the extreme loyalty and emotional rashness. Can't be trusted wherever those things apply.

Plus she doesn't like the son of her father's mistress, who shamed her mother (as she knew it). The whole concept of 'bastard' is tied up with distrust because it was well understood a bastard would naturally resent their position, in the family but no rights. Sansa was part of that, the conservative kindred tradition.

[Drago]

Sansa is an Idiot! After all the crap she has been through to finally be reunited with Jon and maneuverer him into the conflict and then hold back information on the availability of the Vale Knights is truly beyond belief.

She has the audacity to lecture Jon about not asking her for her opinion when all she had to do is open her mouth and tell the truth. The men would have listed at that point. She thinks she can play the game but is sadly mistaken, she is still just a child trying to play in the big bad world getting experience at the expense of her brother. It is like Jon said "where are we going to get more people" or words to that effect, then she still lies about going behind his back. Not a good way to start a family reunion.

Jon was making decision based upon the facts that he had. Nobody can fault him for that. For her to say don't do what he wants you to do is ridiculous. If I had seen my younger defenceless brother in that situation I probably would have done the same thing, you have to try or be judged badly by your Northern peers.

He could have stayed back and watch Rickon die but that is not who he is which is why I think he truly is the chosen one, he puts other people above himself. I like the way in which the battle had everything going his way as if the lord of light was telling him you are the one I brought you back for a reason you have to fight and in the end that is exactly what we saw. He is back in the game.

[OldGimletEye]

9 minutes ago, Morgain said:

If I know someone is not going to hold their cool, is predictably going to crash into emotion stuff if someone clever yanks their cord - then I'm not going to trust that person in anything that requires cool thinking.

I might feel sentimental about them due to the past. I might respect their courage, and their battle ability around dtstraight fighting and deployment (tactics). But I'm still left with that fatal weakness, the extreme loyalty and emotional rashness. Can't be trusted wherever those things apply.

Plus she doesn't like the son of her father's mistress, who shamed her mother (as she knew it). The whole concept of 'bastard' is tied up with distrust because it was well understood a bastard would naturally resent their position, in the family but no rights. Sansa was part of that, the conservative kindred tradition.

If she had any doubts about Jon's command ability she should have expressed that directly to Jon. But, the fact of the matter is that she never really indicates she has those reservations.

If Sansa is going to ask Jon and his wildings to help her fight, then at least she could be honest with them. There is no excuse for her to treat Jon as untrustworthy and not worthy of her confidence, particularly if she is going to complain about Jon's lack of trust in her.

And your assertion that Jon would have blown the battle had he had the Vale troops is pure speculation on your part. It reall has little basis. There is no reason to suppose he would have done that. And as I pointed out, there is no reason to suppose that he would have taken direct command of them anyway. Bronze Yohn may have very well commanded them. In fact, Bronze Yohn may have been in overall command.

In fact, had the Vale forces arrived on the battlefield with Jon's forces, then Ramsay probably wouldn't have tried his little Rickon stunt as it would have been pointless. And Sansa could have been there to advise Jon while the battle was unfolding if Ramsay's antics was that big of a problem.

Sansa complains Jon doesn't respect. her Maybe that has some merit. But, Sansa doesn't respect Jon much either. And for that she needs to take the hit.
 

[Tchzaelous]

2 minutes ago, Drago said:

Sansa is an Idiot! After all the crap she has been through to finally be reunited with Jon and maneuverer him into the conflict and then hold back information on the availability of the Vale Knights is truly beyond belief.

She has the audacity to lecture Jon about not asking her for her opinion when all she had to do is open her mouth and tell the truth. The men would have listed at that point. She thinks she can play the game but is sadly mistaken, she is still just a child trying to play in the big bad world getting experience at the expense of her brother. It is like Jon said "where are we going to get more people" or words to that effect, then she still lies about going behind his back. Not a good way to start a family reunion.

Jon was making decision based upon the facts that he had. Nobody can fault him for that. For her to say don't do what he wants you to do is ridiculous. If I had seen my younger defenceless brother in that situation I probably would have done the same thing, you have to try or be judged badly by your Northern peers.

He could have stayed back and watch Rickon die but that is not who he is which is why I think he truly is the chosen one, he puts other people above himself. I like the way in which the battle had everything going his way as if the lord of light was telling him you are the one I brought you back for a reason you have to fight and in the end that is exactly what we saw. He is back in the game.

^ Totally agree.

Also what mistake did he make exactly? I'm pretty sure the plan would have been to send their calvalry into the enemy calvary right? I mean that's exactly what happened. The idiot may have gotten himself pincushioned with arrows, but the end result of the battle would pretty much have been the same... most dead... because Sansa sat on her ass and did nothing but bitch.

[Future Null Infinity]

30 minutes ago, Drago said:

Sansa is an Idiot! After all the crap she has been through to finally be reunited with Jon and maneuverer him into the conflict and then hold back information on the availability of the Vale Knights is truly beyond belief.

She has the audacity to lecture Jon about not asking her for her opinion when all she had to do is open her mouth and tell the truth. The men would have listed at that point. She thinks she can play the game but is sadly mistaken, she is still just a child trying to play in the big bad world getting experience at the expense of her brother. It is like Jon said "where are we going to get more people" or words to that effect, then she still lies about going behind his back. Not a good way to start a family reunion.

Yes, Sansa must not have the audacity to even speak to the our lord/god/saviour/protector Jon Snow

[Future Null Infinity]

34 minutes ago, Tchzaelous said:

^ Totally agree.

Also what mistake did he make exactly? I'm pretty sure the plan would have been to send their calvalry into the enemy calvary right? I mean that's exactly what happened. The idiot may have gotten himself pincushioned with arrows, but the end result of the battle would pretty much have been the same... most dead... because Sansa sat on her ass and did nothing but bitch.

she told him to not to fall in the trap of ramsay, he didn't listen, if he listened it would give her time to come just after the start of battle, but because his stupidity, he killed the half on their army in minutes

[Donaldys I Trumpagar]

On 6/20/2016 at 7:28 AM, Masha said:

Based on trailer, I think Jon says that she should trust him, as a gentle rebuke for not telling him about Vale forces.

Then we have LF demanding his payment - Sansa's hand in marriage.

Then we have that scene from S6 trailer which we now know that LF meets Jon. So I am thinking, Sansa confides to Jon that LF demands her hand in marriage and he confronts/meets LF in Godswood. Thats why we had 

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spoilers that Jon has Ghost circle LF in order to intimidate him. 

 

The only thing I am not sure of is 

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Rumors that Northmen declare Jon King of the North and Sansa actually supports this.

I just don't understand the logic there. Why doesn't she take the title ? Or do they agree to share the power with him as War leader and her as Political leader, or she just wants to have Winterfell and leave Kingship to Jon?

 

I don't think it works that way in the North, certainly not among the Freefolk. Sansa doesn't have an army, so she can't "take" anything. Jon has an army because, as the conversation between Davos and Tormund revealed, he has earned it through leadership and his martial skills.

Now, if Sansa marries Littlefinger, I suppose she would in part have control of an army. Not of Northmen, but one of more than sufficient size to exercise power in the North given the North's catastrophic losses.

But on her own? Nothing. 

[Drago]

14 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

she told him to not to fall in the trap of ramsay, he didn't listen, if he listened it would give her time to come just after the start of battle, but because his stupidity, he killed the half on their army in minutes

Totally disagree with you. You're  missing the point, she didn't give him all the information. As for charging in it was a bit stupid but it was the right thing to do. As for making a mistake, once he was in the middle he drew their cavalry out which was what he wanted anyway. The bigger error would have been taking the whole army in to rescue Rickon.

[OldGimletEye]

57 minutes ago, Morgain said:

Plus she doesn't like the son of her father's mistress, who shamed her mother (as she knew it). The whole concept of 'bastard' is tied up with distrust because it was well understood a bastard would naturally resent their position, in the family but no rights. Sansa was part of that, the conservative kindred tradition.

LOL Okay. Much of this season has been about "female empowerment". Evidently, though, it's okay to discriminate against bastards on stereotypes, even ones that have demonstrated they are trying to do their best by Sansa.

Evidently, this isn't the season for "bastard empowerment."

[Future Null Infinity]

3 minutes ago, Drago said:

Totally disagree with you. You're  missing the point, she didn't give him all the information. As for charging in it was a bit stupid but it was the right thing to do. As for making a mistake, once he was in the middle he drew their cavalry out which was what he wanted anyway. The bigger error would have been taking the whole army in to rescue Rickon.

why should she give him all the informations? he will blow it either in a way or another, she thought about it not like a stark, she knew he's a stark and starks are dumb, starks fail everytime, he was never a good commander, a good commander don't act like that 

[OldGimletEye]

5 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

why should she give him all the informations? he will blow it either in a way or another, she thought about it not like a stark, she knew he's a stark and starks are dumb, starks fail everytime, he was never a good commander, a good commander don't act like that 

This is pure bull. There is no reason to suppose that Jon would have blown it had he known about the Vale forces. And just because Jon made a mistake doesn't mean he is a terrible commander. Even great commanders have made mistakes. Napoleon made them.

And if every Stark was such goddamned loser, how did these people hold the North for thousands of years.

And the fact is that Sansa took a big risk, by having not prior coordination done between two the forces. 

And while we're not given a solid reason by for Sansa's actions, it seems the fact he was a bastard seems to be the main reason, as suggested by LF's "half-brother" comment and not because Sansa had serious doubts about Jon's basic command abilities.

[Tchzaelous]

26 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said:

she told him to not to fall in the trap of ramsay, he didn't listen, if he listened it would give her time to come just after the start of battle, but because his stupidity, he killed the half on their army in minutes

All Jon's stupidity did, was make the calvalry charge each other 2 minutes sooner than they would have anyway. I do agree it was stupid, but even if they shot Jon down it wouldn't have changed the outcome of the cavalry charge. That's the thing, the "trap" would need to do something that would force the outcome to be different. 

As for the "killed half their army" you might want to look at Sansa at that. If Jon and the rest of the Commanders knew there was a whole army waiting in the wings, that would have changed everything.

[Tchzaelous]

Just now, Tchzaelous said:

All Jon's stupidity did, was make the calvalry charge each other 2 minutes sooner than they would have anyway. I do agree it was stupid, but even if they shot Jon down it wouldn't have changed the outcome of the cavalry charge. That's the thing, the "trap" would need to do something that would force the outcome to be different. 

As for the "killed half their army" you might want to look at Sansa at that. If Jon and the rest of the Commanders knew there was a whole army waiting in the wings, that would have changed everything.

Because he was leading the army. Witholding information gets people killed (like half your army SANSA)... Pretty sure that's Littlefinger's entire mantra.

Besides, as a Stark, Sansa should know how loyal that would make Jon. Including him in on plans is the smartest thing you can do. As you yourself just stated he's Ned in spirit... the MOST reliable ally to have realistically. Is Jon going to turn on Sansa. No. Is he going to lock her up and try and marry her off for political gain. No. Is he going to flay her if their army wins. NO.

Why in the Gods' sake would you NOT want to win a war?

[Future Null Infinity]

4 minutes ago, Tchzaelous said:

All Jon's stupidity did, was make the calvalry charge each other 2 minutes sooner than they would have anyway. I do agree it was stupid, but even if they shot Jon down it wouldn't have changed the outcome of the cavalry charge. That's the thing, the "trap" would need to do something that would force the outcome to be different. 

As for the "killed half their army" you might want to look at Sansa at that. If Jon and the rest of the Commanders knew there was a whole army waiting in the wings, that would have changed everything.

she didn't trust him as commander, in stannis camp she said to him "is that your advisor, Davos? who let his king die" and she saw his famous pathetic army of wildlings, she was right to not give him any information, she was right all the way, she needed this win, she needed to act alone Tywin/Littlefinger/Roose style, starks can't win nothing, look to robb