Sansa is obnoxious

[RhaenysBee]

7 minutes ago, PirateVergo said:

Yep should totally have listened to battle genius Sansa Stark "not enough men" what a pathetic excuse, she gave him 0 reasons to wait, not enough men so what? Where was Jon going to find men? No other northern house was willing to follow him and the very smart Sansa didn't tell him about the Vale.

Also where is this bullshit fanfiction about Jon not listening/trustng Sansa's advices coming from? He did everything she told him to do : go see the northern lords and ask for their help, never did he neglect her or any of her ideas.

Yes. Sansa kept bitching about Jon being wrong and not making the right moves, but she never offered an alternative solution. So what should we do? I don't know. Well thank you for your contribution Sansa. There was nothing Jon could have listened to because she never had an opinion in the first place. 

Jon did what was logical based on  the information he had by marching on Winterfell and not waiting another day. Sansa kept telling him to wait, but never told him why. How do you expect anybody to do something that's not logical from their point of view without providing a reason and the extra information? 

And yes, Jon did everything Sansa asked, except wait one more day and had he known why he was supposed to wait, he would have. 

[Guest]

Part the two things. First, Littlefinger commanded the army and he decided when he's about to enter the fight. Second, Sansa did try to warn Jon he didn't listen and futher on - if she had declared openly the Vale army is coming, she could affect Jon's army to not go into the open battle and possible Ramsey's suspision about that which could lead im his closing up inside the Winterfell and probably certain defeat evem with the Vale army, or at least immeasurable losses for the Vale. That's why she had kept her mouth shut or open as much as possible by an advice for Jon to wait one more day.

[Hol Horse]

Durr & Derp have a habit of trying to make certain characters badass and relevant, and failing miserably. That's why Yara, Brienne, Sansa, Sand Snakes, and Dany are more annoying than malaria-carrying mosquitoes and less interesting than a wet paper bag. This isn't even character-based thing, since none of them are as insufferable in the books.

The culprit is shit writing.

[AGS Martell]

1 hour ago, PirateVergo said:

Yep should totally have listened to battle genius Sansa Stark "not enough men" what a pathetic excuse, she gave him 0 reasons to wait, not enough men so what? Where was Jon going to find men? No other northern house was willing to follow him and the very smart Sansa didn't tell him about the Vale.

Also where is this bullshit fanfiction about Jon not listening/trustng Sansa's advices coming from? He did everything she told him to do : go see the northern lords and ask for their help, never did he neglect her or any of her ideas.

Sansa is a traitor, Littlefinger's little puppet, soon-to be his wife, she didn't do anything for her home, she almost got Jon killed because she's self-centered and only care about herself.

I gave my point of view regarding that.

 

[TickTak7]

6 hours ago, Warsaw said:

1. No, it's not easier. Maybe she rode to wait and see if they would come. No way to know for sure.

Let's agree to disagree then. 

Several multi-page threads on Sansa here, as well as several on Reddit, suggest that I'm right, but who knows. 

[OldGimletEye]

12 hours ago, Martin Rheaume said:

She seriously has a lot of nerve complaining about not being involved in the planning of the battle. She first refused the knights of the Vale without telling anyone. Then, she lets them plan the whole battle without essential information that she's withholding, and complains that they won't listen to her. I guarantee if she had told them she had access to thousands knights, they would have taken her very seriously

 

The problem here is that she doesn't have any specific advice concerning the specific tactical and strategic problem Jon and company are facing.

She doesn't have advice like:

1. You really need better ground to fight a defensive battle. I know of better ground not a short distance from here; or

2. I'd secure your flanks by doing the following....; or

3. Really guys, you cannot win this battle. My advice would be retreat in this direction and regroup and maybe find more men here. I'd deal with any attempted pursuit with Ramsay by doing the following...

Instead, she complains about Jon not asking about her advice and then her advice basically boils down to, "watch out for Ramsay, he is cunning". Not that is completely useless information to have, but the fact of the matter is that is only a small part of the actual tactical and strategic problem Jon and company are facing. She doesn't have any real advice with how to deal with Ramsay's superior numbers or the fact that his own forces lacks calvary.

Also, if show!Sansa wants to complain about Jon not trusting her enough to seek her advice on important matters, then really she ought to disclose to Jon what she knows about the true strategic situation. She can't be all like,"it's not fair Jon doesn't trust me enough to ask for my advice" on one hand, but then turn around and not trust Jon with vital information.

And you are right, I'm sure if Sansa said, "guys I know how we can get more troops", I'm sure everyone in the room would have stopped what they were doing and would have listened to her.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

25 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

The problem here is that she doesn't have any specific advice concerning the specific tactical and strategic problem Jon and company are facing.

She doesn't have advice like:

1. You really need better ground to fight a defensive battle. I know of better ground not a short distance from here; or

2. I'd secure your flanks by doing the following....; or

3. Really guys, you cannot win this battle. My advice would be retreat in this direction and regroup and maybe find more men here. I'd deal with any attempted pursuit with Ramsay by doing the following...

Instead, she complains about Jon not asking about her advice and then her advice basically boils down to, "watch out for Ramsay, he is cunning". Not that is completely useless information to have, but the fact of the matter is that is only a small part of the actual tactical and strategic problem Jon and company are facing. She doesn't have any real advice with how to deal with Ramsay's superior numbers or the fact that his own forces lacks calvary.

Also, if show!Sansa wants to complain about Jon not trusting her enough to seek her advice on important matters, then really she ought to disclose to Jon what she knows about the true strategic situation. She can't be all like,"it's not fair Jon doesn't trust me enough to ask for my advice" on one hand, but then turn around and not trust Jon with vital information.

And you are right, I'm sure if Sansa said, "guys I know how we can get more troops", I'm sure everyone in the room would have stopped what they were doing and would have listened to her.

This is the issue. The writing of Sansa is actually very sexist. The writers are trying to make some kind of feminist dominance this season. While with Dany and Yara, Cersei and even the Tyrell it somehow works, with Sansa it completely fails. She whines and whines and give no actual and pragmatic information at all about the battlefield. This is pretty much a stupid female character whose males describe as bossy and whiny and dishonest. This is bad writing on Sansa.
The thing with Sansa is that she distrusts her only reliable brother who can actually fight. Do you see that plotline happens to Yara, Magaery? The family tie is one of the biggest matters and conflicts in this game of thrones, it's the cause and the motivation, the only hope to fight for in most cases of most of these characters, and it doesn't look like Sansa actually cares for Jon at all. She doesn't acknowledge him as a Stark, he is the only choice she can cling to and she is reluctant to it very much. I don't blame her for not acknowledging him as a full brother of her, given her mother and they were never been close to begin with. But because of that, her pushing Jon and his supporters to a battle just for her sake and yet at the same time withholding information from them make me feel disgusted. The free folks were right, it was not their fight in the first place, and technically if she doesn't see Jon as a Stark, it is not his fight in the first place too. They went out the war for the fxxxing Sansa Stark, just to die because she is distrustful and selfish enough to not tell them the most valuable information.

[OldGimletEye]

14 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

This is the issue. The writing of Sansa is actually very sexist. The writers are trying to make some kind of feminist dominance this season. While with Dany and Yara, Cersei and even the Tyrell it somehow works, with Sansa it completely fails. She whines and whines and give no actual and pragmatic information at all about the battlefield. This is pretty much a stupid female character whose males describe as bossy and whiny and dishonest. This is bad writing on Sansa.
The thing with Sansa is that she distrusts her only reliable brother who can actually fight. Do you see that plotline happens to Yara, Magaery? The family tie is one of the biggest matters and conflicts in this game of thrones, it's the cause and the motivation, the only hope to fight for in most cases of most of these characters, and it doesn't look like Sansa actually cares for Jon at all. She doesn't acknowledge him as a Stark, he is the only choice she can cling to and she is reluctant to it very much. I don't blame her for not acknowledging him as a full brother of her, given her mother and they were never been close to begin with. But because of that, her pushing Jon and his supporters to a battle just for her sake and yet at the same time withholding information from them make me feel disgusted. The free folks were right, it was not their fight in the first place, and technically if she doesn't see Jon as a Stark, it is not his fight in the first place too. They went out the war for the fxxxing Sansa Stark, just to die because she is distrustful and selfish enough to not tell them the most valuable information.

 I agree that the writing here is the issue.

Fact is that I really like book!Sansa. She is one of my favorites in ASOIAF. So I am really disappointed to see her character being butchered.

D & D think they are making her look empowered or whatever here. But, they aren't. She comes of very badly here. And it's a damn shame. 

[Rubicante]

1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

 I agree that the writing here is the issue.

Fact is that I really like book!Sansa. She is one of my favorites in ASOIAF. So I am really disappointed to see her character being butchered.

D & D think they are making her look empowered or whatever here. But, they aren't. She comes of very badly here. And it's a damn shame. 

I agree with most posters here.  Don't forget that last year D & D forced her to take the role of Jeyne Poole because "she was one of their leading actresses" and wanted her to have more screen time with an interesting story.  This year they are forcing her to be empowered when she just isn't at this point in the story.  She just comes off as a whiny know-it-all.

I think Jon should banish her to the Dreadfort to live the rest of her life in isolation.  Or better yet, pull a "D & D sand snake", which means getting revenge for killed members of your family by killing your own family members. 

I don't want her on the show anymore.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

3 minutes ago, Rubicante said:

I agree with most posters here.  Don't forget that last year D & D forced her to take the role of Jeyne Poole because "she was one of their leading actresses" and wanted her to have more screen time with an interesting story.  This year they are forcing her to be empowered when she just isn't at this point in the story.  She just comes off as a whiny know-it-all.

I think Jon should banish her to the Dreadfort to live the rest of her life in isolation.  Or better yet, pull a "D & D sand snake", which means getting revenge for killed members of your family by killing your own family members. 

I don't want her on the show anymore.

Exactly, D&D is making Sansa's transformation looks so forced. 

[Karmarni]

4 hours ago, Cz-99 said:

Durr & Derp have a habit of trying to make certain characters badass and relevant, and failing miserably. That's why Yara, Brienne, Sansa, Sand Snakes, and Dany are more annoying than malaria-carrying mosquitoes and less interesting than a wet paper bag. This isn't even character-based thing, since none of them are as insufferable in the books.

The culprit is shit writing.

Agree. And I note your list is all women, written by men. Some men write women characters well. Others don't. This show has the benefit of the ones who don't.

[HellasLEAF]

I actually liked her scenes in this episode. 

Think the only misstep is with Rickon as others have said.

Don't think it was entirely on purpose.  I put that one on the writers they needed to take a moment there.  

I do think it's partly too that she had already accepted he wouldn't make it out of this either way because she knows Ramsey.  It's war time, she was raised in the North.  Sansa has seen heartbreaking things.  

The nobody can save us line comes to mind.  She's changed.  

[Ser Dalton Vaas]

Sansa has degraded to a hideously cold and obnoxious cow, As most people have pointed out, simply from her lack of reaction at seeing her dead brothers body and instead giving Jon a cold look and whinging to see Ramsay.

As well as this, whatever her reason was for holding out on the Vale Ex Machina to Jon, finally after the battle is won, not even a respectful glance at Jon for going through hell during the battle. Please kill her off, please....

[DireWolfSpirit]

Sansa and Brienne are my two characters I most would like to see put out of the storyline, although Tommen and the High Sparrow tie for a close second. At this point I wouldnt be surprised if Sansa hatches a plot against either Arya or Jon, hopefully it will be Arya that takes Sansa out. Sansa is just hideous and untrustworthy. 

I dont mind dark characters, Cersei is probably my second favorite GOT character, but Sansa doesnt even rise to a dark character, she's just a selfish, entitled, fibbing, backstabber, the lowest of the low. The show needs to be done with her and her Zero redeeming quality once and for all.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

13 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Sansa and Brienne are my two characters I most would like to see put out of the storyline, although Tommen and the High Sparrow tie for a close second. At this point I wouldnt be surprised if Sansa hatches a plot against either Arya or Jon, hopefully it will be Arya that takes Sansa out. Sansa is just hideous and untrustworthy. 

I dont mind dark characters, Cersei is probably my second favorite GOT character, but Sansa doesnt even rise to a dark character, she's just a selfish, entitled, fibbing, backstabber, the lowest of the low. The show needs to be done with her and her Zero redeeming quality once and for all.

Cersei is lunatic but she isn't confused. I might cut Sansa some slack as she is still young. She might rise up to be much better than Cersei.

However It is utterly wrong to her to distrust her only brother who can actually fight. If Sansa wants to turn Jon into some kind of Jamie to her (not in that XXX sense lol) who will go out the battle for her, she should give him all the information he needs. 

 

[Solstice]

12 hours ago, HellasLEAF said:

I actually liked her scenes in this episode. 

Think the only misstep is with Rickon as others have said.

Don't think it was entirely on purpose.  I put that one on the writers they needed to take a moment there.  

I do think it's partly too that she had already accepted he wouldn't make it out of this either way because she knows Ramsey.  It's war time, she was raised in the North.  Sansa has seen heartbreaking things.  

The nobody can save us line comes to mind.  She's changed.  

 She didn't cry about Rickon, but so didn't Jon.  But she was very angry about Rickons death. She is looking at his dead body and you can see the anger in her face. She turns to Jon and asks where she can find Ramsay. 

I dont' know why everyone is expecting her to cry, she was angry and  Rickons death was one of the reasons she let the dogs kill Ramsay.

I thought it was one of her better moments in this episode.

 

Other scenes like the one with Jon isnthe tent were just weird, though. I really don't now,  about wht exactly she was complaining.

[sweetsunray]

A point I haven't even seen raised in here... Actually, Sansa withholding information on the possibility of a Vale army, worse rejecting LF's offer the first time around is very likely what cost Rickon's life.

1. Having that superior force on their side, would probably have made Glover agree to join House Stark

2. Jon would actually have an army to make demands for Ramsay to give up Rickon + WF in return for remaining the Lord of the Dreadfort. Or against such a force, Umber might have thought... "You know what, I'm changing sides."

From the very beginning Sansa keeping this secret cost Jon allies, her brother's life most likely, and then all the lives at the battle we saw.

As for the argument: but "she couldn't tell him, because then they'd go for another tactic and the surprise would be gone"

BS: either they are so superior in forces they don't need a surprise, or they could still meet and agree with the Vale forces to lure Ramsay into a trap of thinking he'd be attacking a minor rag-tag army with the Vale knights coming. But d$d love ex-machina wins for battles too much, instead of actually putting together a tactical sound battle with a commander using the available terrain as a smart trap and winning it because he's smart even the odds in numbers seem against him. (Ya know, like the NIght Lamp theory for the Battle of Ice)

And then I'm completely ignoring all the shitty scripting about how anyone hides an army of 10000 strong, let alone taking Moat Cailin, which Ramsay freed from IB before, or the stupidity of Sansa worrying about sending a raven in one episode, then not minding in another to the middle of nowhere (ravens with mysterious LF and Sansa GPSs)

[Roboginger]

She as present at the battle planning its not like they excluded, its not like she tried to talk and they shut her out. She is just a weak pawn in Littlefingers plan.

[Red Tiger]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

A point I haven't even seen raised in here... Actually, Sansa withholding information on the possibility of a Vale army, worse rejecting LF's offer the first time around is very likely what cost Rickon's life.

1. Having that superior force on their side, would probably have made Glover agree to join House Stark

2. Jon would actually have an army to make demands for Ramsay to give up Rickon + WF in return for remaining the Lord of the Dreadfort. Or against such a force, Umber might have thought... "You know what, I'm changing sides."

From the very beginning Sansa keeping this secret cost Jon allies, her brother's life most likely, and then all the lives at the battle we saw.

As for the argument: but "she couldn't tell him, because then they'd go for another tactic and the surprise would be gone"

BS: either they are so superior in forces they don't need a surprise, or they could still meet and agree with the Vale forces to lure Ramsay into a trap of thinking he'd be attacking a minor rag-tag army with the Vale knights coming. But d$d love ex-machina wins for battles too much, instead of actually putting together a tactical sound battle with a commander using the available terrain as a smart trap and winning it because he's smart even the odds in numbers seem against him. (Ya know, like the NIght Lamp theory for the Battle of Ice)

And then I'm completely ignoring all the shitty scripting about how anyone hides an army of 10000 strong, let alone taking Moat Cailin, which Ramsay freed from IB before, or the stupidity of Sansa worrying about sending a raven in one episode, then not minding in another to the middle of nowhere (ravens with mysterious LF and Sansa GPSs)

You are asking too much of D&D's lazy minds. I guarantee you they didnt think this through at all.

This reminds me a lot of season 2 of the Flash, where due to insanely lazy writing Barry Allen came across as an even bigger sociopath than the monsters he fights.

What I think happened is

1. D&D intended her to do this because of good and understandable motives

2. They were lazy as fuck and completelty failed to realize how this would look

[sweetsunray]

Just now, Red Tiger said:

You are asking too much of D&D's lazy minds. I guarantee you they didnt think this through at all.

This reminds me a lot of season 2 of the Flash, where due to insanely lazy writing Barry Allen came across as an even bigger sociopath than the monsters he fights.

What I think happened is

1. D&D intended her to do this because of good and understandable motives

2. They were lazy as fuck and completelty failed to realize how this would look

Well, I would agree it was pure lazy writing, that imo went like this.

"Oh let's have a battle of bastards" => But Jon was ressurected from the dead, so everybody will believe he'll win, can't have that, can we => no, so we have to make it look like he'll lose => yup, we give North Altzheimer, he gets almost no allies and we'll give Ramsay the big army support => yeah and let's get rid of Rickon too as well. We can use him for emotional manipulation and have Jon make a mistake so that it will really look like he'll lose and die => yeah, yeah, euhm but how is he gong to win though? => Well LF has to make up with Sansa, so let's get the Vale army make Ramsay lose => Problem: if the audience knows that LF is coming with a Vale army, then everybody will know the Vale army will help Jon win => What if we make it ambiguous, make the audience doubt he'll show up => How are we gonna do that? => Well, Sansa rejects the offer first, but because of that she keeps it secret => oh, yeah, that'll create some brother-sister tension between them, yadayadayda

Now, was there anyone with the viewers who actually believed Jon was gonna die? Was there anyone with the viewers who actually believed that the Vale would return and go home and not save the day?

Nope... So, they butchered characterization for faux-tension