The North Remembers What?

[sifth]

7 hours ago, Apathetic Onlooker said:

Clearly, you haven't read the books then.  If you think the idea that honor, love, stability, or respect don't fit in this world, you don't understand the slightest thing about Westeros or A Song of Ice and Fire.  Then again, if you're a show-watcher, that's understandable.  The show is massively inconsistent, as Cas Stark pointed out.  

However, the North was ruled for 800 years by the Starks.  The Starks may have made mistakes, but they also were the most just and stable of lords/ kings to serve.  They respected the rights of vassals, respected the right of peaceful diplomatic exchange (the guest rights), and protected and provided for their lords.  The Starks EARNED that respect and tailored it through years of consistent rule, that allowed families to raise their children without fear of being murdered and allowed the common people to feel safe.  Many of the major families that live there, exist due to the Starks raising them up.  

 The Boltons represent the opposite of that.  They rule through fear, intimidation, and treachery.   Even in this show, Ramsey flays a Cerwyn lord over a minor offense... so he clearly cares not a toss for vassal rights.  His family participated in the Red Wedding, so they don't care about diplomatic rights.  Hell flaying was considered illegal in the Stark's time.  Now it's common-place among the Boltons. There's no safety.  There's no security.  No mercy or charity.  Do you really think these Northern houses want to raise their families in fear that at any day, they may all be killed?  Winter is coming and after it ends, what will happen if they can't pay their taxes to the Boltons due to a poor harvest and limited resources?  Can they expect to be flayed for something out of their control?   The Boltons killed a great many of their family members already.  You mean to tell me they don't want retribution for that?  To tell me they wouldn't jump at the opportunity to put back in control the family that actually treated them with respect?  

For all Robb's mistake, he still was a better leader than the Boltons ever were.  And for all Lord Glover in this show bitches about how Robb didn't help him keep his castle when the Ironborn came-- Bran DID.  Bran actually sent men from Winterfell to defend the Stark vassal-houses from losing their ancestral homes to the Ironborn attack, and he sent those men putting his own house at great risk of losing their own ancestral home.  Fuck, this happened in the show!  Bran even says "If we can't protect our own banner, why should they protect us?"  and gives Rodrick all the men he needs.  It's that kind of devotion and selflessness that is why their vassals were loyal for so long and should be loyal now.  Show-Glover is a colossal douche.  The show-houses that never respond to the call to arms by Sansa Stark and Jon Snow are all assholes.  The Mormont response of "why should I fight for someone else's war" is bullshit, considering they wouldn't have their land were it not for the Starks.  Vows are supposed to MEAN something to these people, goddamn it.  

And despite all of Robb's mistake, it makes no sense why they'd blame him and not the goddamn Freys and Boltons for the Red Wedding.  Sure, Robb broke his word to Walder Frey; but he and everyone there (many of whom were relatives to these Houses that are digging in their heels) that followed him were killed through an act of diplomatic violation that is considered among the worst crimes in all of Westeros. Walder Frey could have denied them entry of his bridge for Robb breaking his word and that would have been on Robb.  Killing Robb and all of those with him in the most brutal violation of diplomatic immunity and betrayal?  That's beyond heinous.  Going back to show-Glover, his goddamn brother was at that wedding.  Why the hell would he be okay with letting the Boltons rule him after that?  Why would he ever trust them in his own hall not to rip his skin off after eating bread and salt?  Did he even get his brother's body back or was Galbert thrown into the river along with Caitlyn Stark?

And hell-- the show houses don't even have all the restrictions that the book houses do.  In the books, the only reason the Northern houses haven't murdered every Bolton they can find, with or without a Stark supporting them, is because Roose Bolton has family members from every House held hostage and has a diplomatic pact with the crown and the Freys to support him.  In the show, the Boltons have no hostages from any Northern house.  Roose torches the crown alliance by wedding Ramsey to Sansa.  Then Ramsey torches the Frey alliance by killing Roose and his Frey wife.  So Ramsey has no southern support at all, no hostages... and Lord Umber gives him Rickon Stark why???   Why aren't all the Houses rising up to tear the Boltons apart when literally anyone would be a better liege lord and there's nothing stopping them from doing so?  Oh that's right-- shit writing.

Very wise words my friend, very wise indeed.

 

However in the shows defense, the Umbers reasons for joining Ramsay are they don't enjoy the fact that Jon let an Army of wildlings onto the other side of The Wall. Last Hearth is very close to the wall, so I can see why this is an issue for them.

[Gannicus]

3 hours ago, NutBurz said:

 

I´m waiting for one the honor specialists to clear this one for me.

What makes people who are born in Bolton´s land not be considered northerner for you? Or, if those northerner can follow their interests over their honor, why can´t every other?

I swear, I´m gonna cry with joy when GRRM himself breaks your delusions.

I need some clarification, are you asking about the book or the show? And are you're asking about the people/soldiers who are born under Bolton rule, or what makes the Bolton's different from the rest of the Northern Lords?

[Tijgy]

17 hours ago, Apathetic Onlooker said:

- snip for length -

Loved this . And yeah, I hate Glover in the show (while he is my favorite Northerner except for the Starks and the Reeds.

[Darkstream]

@Apathetic Onlooker

I must add my praise to the others, Brilliant posts and wonderfully written.  

[Count Winter]

11 hours ago, sifth said:

Very wise words my friend, very wise indeed.

 

However in the shows defense, the Umbers reasons for joining Ramsay are they don't enjoy the fact that Jon let an Army of wildlings onto the other side of The Wall. Last Hearth is very close to the wall, so I can see why this is an issue for them.

If they would care so much about the wildlings, where were they when the wall was attacked? They didn't sent anyone to help or oversee what happend (i presume). Even afterwards, why didn't they talk to Jon or the NW? 

[Darkstream]

12 hours ago, NutBurz said:

I swear, I´m gonna cry with joy when GRRM himself breaks your delusions.

I wouldn't hold my breath, those will be tears of sorrow my friend, tears of sorrow. I fear for your gaiety if your counting on this happening.

[Ruhail]

1 hour ago, Count Winter said:

If they would care so much about the wildlings, where were they when the wall was attacked? They didn't sent anyone to help or oversee what happend (i presume). Even afterwards, why didn't they talk to Jon or the NW? 

You'd think Stannis rekting the wilding invasion and executing their king would get something from them lol

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Count Winter said:

If they would care so much about the wildlings, where were they when the wall was attacked? They didn't sent anyone to help or oversee what happend (i presume). Even afterwards, why didn't they talk to Jon or the NW? 

hmmmm, you do have a point. Stannis killing Mance should have helped him get Umber support, if nothing else.

[watcher of the night]

23 hours ago, Apathetic Onlooker said:

Clearly, you haven't read the books then.  If you think the idea that honor, love, stability, or respect don't fit in this world, you don't understand the slightest thing about Westeros or A Song of Ice and Fire.  Then again, if you're a show-watcher, that's understandable.  The show is massively inconsistent, as Cas Stark pointed out.  

However, the North was ruled for 800 years by the Starks.  The Starks may have made mistakes, but they also were the most just and stable of lords/ kings to serve.  They respected the rights of vassals, respected the right of peaceful diplomatic exchange (the guest rights), and protected and provided for their lords.  The Starks EARNED that respect and tailored it through years of consistent rule, that allowed families to raise their children without fear of being murdered and allowed the common people to feel safe.  Many of the major families that live there, exist due to the Starks raising them up.  

 The Boltons represent the opposite of that.  They rule through fear, intimidation, and treachery.   Even in this show, Ramsey flays a Cerwyn lord over a minor offense... so he clearly cares not a toss for vassal rights.  His family participated in the Red Wedding, so they don't care about diplomatic rights.  Hell flaying was considered illegal in the Stark's time.  Now it's common-place among the Boltons. There's no safety.  There's no security.  No mercy or charity.  Do you really think these Northern houses want to raise their families in fear that at any day, they may all be killed?  Winter is coming and after it ends, what will happen if they can't pay their taxes to the Boltons due to a poor harvest and limited resources?  Can they expect to be flayed for something out of their control?   The Boltons killed a great many of their family members already.  You mean to tell me they don't want retribution for that?  To tell me they wouldn't jump at the opportunity to put back in control the family that actually treated them with respect?  

For all Robb's mistake, he still was a better leader than the Boltons ever were.  And for all Lord Glover in this show bitches about how Robb didn't help him keep his castle when the Ironborn came-- Bran DID.  Bran actually sent men from Winterfell to defend the Stark vassal-houses from losing their ancestral homes to the Ironborn attack, and he sent those men putting his own house at great risk of losing their own ancestral home.  Fuck, this happened in the show!  Bran even says "If we can't protect our own banner, why should they protect us?"  and gives Rodrick all the men he needs.  It's that kind of devotion and selflessness that is why their vassals were loyal for so long and should be loyal now.  Show-Glover is a colossal douche.  The show-houses that never respond to the call to arms by Sansa Stark and Jon Snow are all assholes.  The Mormont response of "why should I fight for someone else's war" is bullshit, considering they wouldn't have their land were it not for the Starks.  Vows are supposed to MEAN something to these people, goddamn it.  

And despite all of Robb's mistake, it makes no sense why they'd blame him and not the goddamn Freys and Boltons for the Red Wedding.  Sure, Robb broke his word to Walder Frey; but he and everyone there (many of whom were relatives to these Houses that are digging in their heels) that followed him were killed through an act of diplomatic violation that is considered among the worst crimes in all of Westeros. Walder Frey could have denied them entry of his bridge for Robb breaking his word and that would have been on Robb.  Killing Robb and all of those with him in the most brutal violation of diplomatic immunity and betrayal?  That's beyond heinous.  Going back to show-Glover, his goddamn brother was at that wedding.  Why the hell would he be okay with letting the Boltons rule him after that?  Why would he ever trust them in his own hall not to rip his skin off after eating bread and salt?  Did he even get his brother's body back or was Galbert thrown into the river along with Caitlyn Stark?

And hell-- the show houses don't even have all the restrictions that the book houses do.  In the books, the only reason the Northern houses haven't murdered every Bolton they can find, with or without a Stark supporting them, is because Roose Bolton has family members from every House held hostage and has a diplomatic pact with the crown and the Freys to support him.  In the show, the Boltons have no hostages from any Northern house.  Roose torches the crown alliance by wedding Ramsey to Sansa.  Then Ramsey torches the Frey alliance by killing Roose and his Frey wife.  So Ramsey has no southern support at all, no hostages... and Lord Umber gives him Rickon Stark why???   Why aren't all the Houses rising up to tear the Boltons apart when literally anyone would be a better liege lord and there's nothing stopping them from doing so?  Oh that's right-- shit writing.

Very well said.

[Stannis is the man....nis]

15 hours ago, sifth said:

hmmmm, you do have a point. Stannis killing Mance should have helped him get Umber support, if nothing else.

But that would mean Stannis would of had Rickon thus he would of rallied the North and won an D&D can't have that happen

[DireWolfSpirit]

When Aegon I the Conqueror was taking over all of Westeros it was a Stark who saved the North from destruction by bending the knee and making the peace. This is the legacy that started the Northern house alliances and loyalty to the Starks, the house instrumental to their survival . And the North remembered this for many generations.

Aegon and the dragons would have wiped many of those Northern houses off the map if the Starks hadnt made the peace.

[Kytheros]

3 hours ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

When Aegon I the Conqueror was taking over all of Westeros it was a Stark who saved the North from destruction by bending the knee and making the peace. This is the legacy that started the Northern house alliances and loyalty to the Starks, the house instrumental to their survival . And the North remembered this for many generations.

Aegon and the dragons would have wiped many of those Northern houses off the map if the Starks hadnt made the peace.

Nope. Starks being awesome for the North goes back millenia. Remember, the North - under the Starks - bitchslapped all would-be Andal invaders so hard that the North was going after the Andals on Essos because they were running out of Andal heads to put on spikes all along the coastline. Okay, that isn't exactly what happened, but it's close enough.

The Starks have been ruling the North from Winterfell for thousands of years. Historically, they've driven off every attempt to conquer Northern lands, and generally maintained the peace and good law and order. They've built up massive reserves of faith, trust, and loyalty amongst the Northerners. For that matter, the Starks are even respected by the Wildlings, even though the Wildlings don't like them.

Plus, the "Winter Town" outside Winterfell is supposedly where large numbers of Northerners gather during Winter, leaving smaller holdfasts and villages abandoned during the Winters.

 

The only reason the Boltons still dislike the Starks is hereditary feuds - the Boltons were the last real rival the Starks had in conquering the North - the Boltons and the Starks were the only two families that could have conquered and ruled the North in its entirety, and the Starks won those wars, ultimately conquering and forcing submission from the Boltons.

 

 

The show ditching all of that - things that it had already established to be true for the show - is profoundly irritating.

[Tyrek Lannister]

7 hours ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

But that would mean Stannis would of had Rickon thus he would of rallied the North and won an D&D can't have that happen

It's like the Northern Houses ceased to exist after the Red Wedding and then magically reappeared in Season 6.

[Cas Stark]

On 6/24/2016 at 5:16 PM, NutBurz said:

 

I´m waiting for one the honor specialists to clear this one for me.

What makes people who are born in Bolton´s land not be considered northerner for you? Or, if those northerner can follow their interests over their honor, why can´t every other?

I swear, I´m gonna cry with joy when GRRM himself breaks your delusions.

Don't worry, he won't.  He already had the Liddle tell us that the North was safe when there was a Stark in Winterfell, and Big Bucket Wull wants to die bathing in Bolton blood for a Stark girl he's never met, and Manderly is trying to get a Stark back.....

[Rhollo]

On 25.6.2016 at 0:30 AM, sifth said:

However in the shows defense, the Umbers reasons for joining Ramsay are they don't enjoy the fact that Jon let an Army of wildlings onto the other side of The Wall. Last Hearth is very close to the wall, so I can see why this is an issue for them.

Which is quite a interesting timeline-wise.

- Jon let's the wildlings through the wall
- He get's stabbed the same day ? Or maybe the next one ?
- His body is found by Davos & Co and locked in the room with them.
- Thorne gives them till nightfall to surrender.
- Within a few hours Edd is able to get the wilding army back to CB (so they can't have gone very far south)
- Thorne tries to break in the door, Wildlings arrive and take over CB
- Mel performs Jons resurrection ceremony
- Jon is alive, greets the wildlings at the CB courtyard
- Jon executes the mutineers and declares his watch ended

How much time has passed for these events to take place ? It could easily fit into just 2 days,but  let's be generous and say the mutineers took some time to plan their assassination and Jon also didn't execute them the same day. So maybe a little less then a week ?

The thing is, Smalljons meeting with Ramsay is before the execution scene.

So, most important: There is no way, Wildings actually made it into Umber territory.

Second: The information that Jon let the Wildlings through (how could they know, was someone at CB sending them a raven ?) must have made it to the Last Hearth and then the Umbers to Winterfell (roughly 600 miles) within just a few days.

[Saiyan]

I don't understand the logic of the Northern Houses. It's clear that they didn't want to fight Jon's side, because fear of Ramsay's wrath. But by not helping Ramsay's fight against Jon (except Umbers and Karstarks), Ramsay could still think of them as traitors and punish them harshly for their absence.

[Johannes Rimpiläinen]

19 hours ago, Saiyan said:

I don't understand the logic of the Northern Houses. It's clear that they didn't want to fight Jon's side, because fear of Ramsay's wrath. But by not helping Ramsay's fight against Jon (except Umbers and Karstarks), Ramsay could still think of them as traitors and punish them harshly for their absence.

Nothing in the show makes any sense. Everything happens for dramatic reasons only. The northern houses needed to just vanish, so Jon and Sansa can be underdogs. But then they need to reappear after the victory as a price so the north won't be just 2k wildlings. For dramatic reasons nobody in the north notices the Vale army either until it appears to turn the tide. A non-northern army just appearing at Winterfell, really?  There is blather about how Ramsay only rules through fear and other northern houses would abandon him at first sign of weakness. Just knowing that Vale army is coming would have shattered Ramsay's power base. But for dramatic reason the army appears out of nowhere. It would have been a lot better writing and a more interesting story that Ramsay ignoring Roose's advice and being openly psycho would have cost him. But that would have been a complex story where everything that happens in the north is not centered around Jon and Sansa and there wouldn't have been a dramatic battle.  

[DamonDanceForMe]

On 6/20/2016 at 11:33 AM, Prince Jon said:

Despite no foreshadowing on the show, I  thought the Northmen would mutiny on Ramsey.  They knew of his evil side from previous instances.  Then he plays target practice with straight running Rickon.  Then he sacrifices a ton of them when he lets the arrows fly.  They see Jon's bravery to protect his brother.  Yet they still follow the crazy Ramsey bastard to the death while he just sits there watching?

Now are the Umbers and Karstaks are pretty much extinct.  It would have been wise to remember at some point that the Starks weren't that bad to live under.  

The north certainly doesn't remember ollies parents who big hero tormund freaking ate.

[Slaysman]

The show and the books are two different things as has been pointed out many times.

In the books the North does remember. The Umbers are divided on the issue due to the Small Jon being killed at the Red Wedding and the Great Jon being held hostage by the Freys, The Manderlys actively plotting against the Boltons etc etc.

Book Jon Snow has well over 2,000,  I believe it was something like 40,000, combat capable Free Folk to fight for him and much more than one giant, based on the numbers of feudal armies Jon has the numbers and the ability to completely take the North if he wants without any military support. That is why in the books Jon was unafraid of Ramsey, because he was just going to steamroll that twat. Might still happen depending on if he is going to come back in the books or not.

So the whole North Remembers thing is just blown out of proportion for the TV Series why not just enjoy the ride.

[fire&blood]

I never did understand why they brought in the whole "The North Remembers" if there wasn't going to be the great Northern conspiracy.  The whole time I was watching, I was secretly hoping for Ramsay's forces to turn against him. I guess it was more epic visually to see Jon vs. Ramsay, which is fine because it fulfilled everyone to see that.  They just didn't need to hint at it, then not execute it at all.  It made sense for Karstark to turn against the Starks considering Robb beheaded his father, but not the Umbers. Either way, it was a great episode.