Lockjaw of House Boltagon Posted June 21, 2016 Author Share Posted June 21, 2016 4 hours ago, Chib said: Easy guys, dragons are expensive. You want longer fight, you have some direwolves and giant died. They could've had the same dragon shots, only spread out over more episodes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleRickon Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I agree that dragons always should have an easy time with wooden ships. But actually, book canon tells us otherwise. For reasons totally beyond me, "the Princess and the Queen" tells us how not only one, but I think two dragons go down attacking the combined fleet of the three free cities. It's as simple as "fly too low, get entangled, drown", and "lucky shot by giant x-bow"... Dragons are far from invincible, at least in tPatQ. Aegon's 3 seem much more commanding, but they were a lot older when he finally attacked Westeros after waiting something like 30 years.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banjo Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 17 hours ago, NutBurz said: They don´t aim, they´re built into the ship, they´d have to stir the entire ship and then the dragon just has to move a little to the side. They should still be able to be rotated otherwise its an extremely poor design. Fleets are attacked by other fleet all the time. An immovable weapon would be useless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya_Stormborn Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 1 hour ago, littleRickon said: I agree that dragons always should have an easy time with wooden ships. But actually, book canon tells us otherwise. For reasons totally beyond me, "the Princess and the Queen" tells us how not only one, but I think two dragons go down attacking the combined fleet of the three free cities. It's as simple as "fly too low, get entangled, drown", and "lucky shot by giant x-bow"... But in that situation, the fleet knew that it was going into a dragon battle and prepared for one. Dany had the element of surprise here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NutBurz Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 4 hours ago, Banjo said: They should still be able to be rotated otherwise its an extremely poor design. Fleets are attacked by other fleet all the time. An immovable weapon would be useless Thing is, this is a poor design, there are very limited cases of siege weapons being built into ships exactly because of how expensive/little effective it was. I don´t think I can tell you from memory a single real case of trebuchet-ships. Chinese maybe. I think someone´s said this already, but it would be more believable if they tried to hit the dragons with a scorpios or ballistae if they have the technology. I can totally see one or more of them eventually falling for weapons like these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Spider Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 6 hours ago, Banjo said: They should still be able to be rotated otherwise its an extremely poor design. Fleets are attacked by other fleet all the time. An immovable weapon would be useless err, no. Weapons that require 3-5 tons of counterbalance aren't designed to be rotated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bastard Dayne Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 1 hour ago, Ice Spider said: err, no. Weapons that require 3-5 tons of counterbalance aren't designed to be rotated. Exactly. Thanks for spelling it out for them Ice. You wanna swing that type of counterbalance to one side of a ship??? Lmao. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NutBurz Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 To be fair, they were using traction trebuchets, because counterweight ones would probably sink the ship, I´m not sure. Still, they couldn´t move it more than inches without capsizing or just sinking, and it would take several men - and that´s assuming it´s not fixed into the hull. more than anything, the first time I got mugged as a kid, I couldn´t even remember running because my legs felt like jelly. Those guy were being attacked by legendary creatures. I would probably just manage to think about how cool my death would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Spider Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 1 hour ago, NutBurz said: To be fair, they were using traction trebuchets, because counterweight ones would probably sink the ship, I´m not sure. Still, they couldn´t move it more than inches without capsizing or just sinking, and it would take several men - and that´s assuming it´s not fixed into the hull. more than anything, the first time I got mugged as a kid, I couldn´t even remember running because my legs felt like jelly. Those guy were being attacked by legendary creatures. I would probably just manage to think about how cool my death would be. those were not traction trebuchets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NutBurz Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Yeah, the first scene is a catapult. Later when Daenerys is about to burn the ships, we see a trebuchet that uses its own weight as the launching counterweight, so it could only launch light loads, but you´re right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lash Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 4:35 PM, The Bastard Dayne said: Except that ships that size ( carrying trebs no less ) don't turn on a dime or magically spin in place. You've got a ship on your left and a ship on your right? You're fucked. There's no room to maneuver without entangling, rendering both ships unable to move at all ( best case scenario ), or you end up sending yourself and the other vessel to the bottom. There's a reason why Dany got to add those ships to her fleet. After seeing the dragons in action the other crews realized they were fucked, so they surrendered. Ships have to be moving in order to turn. It is called something like bare steerage. Depending on the type of vessel and length, determined how fast a ship needs to go In order to turn. And the fact that The slaver ships are 4 to 5 hundred yards yards off the coast with their sails up facing the coastline is utter BS. The only way they would not run aground and still be able to face their target is if the anchor was at the very back of the boat and the anchorage was very sound. When a ship drops anchor there is an imaginary circle drawn around it where no other ship can enter. This is because wind, currents, and most definitely a raised sail will push that vessel anywhere in that circle. Any other vessel in that circle becomes big problems for both. And if they cannot aim their catapults or whatever by themselves and depend on the ship to do it, any accuracy because of the dropped anchor and the swing circle becomes almost impossible to maintain. The wind would have to be absolutely steady for the entire length of the bombardment. I do not find this very likely. It would be a little more feasible if there was some degree of aiming of the catapults themselves, but it would still be extremely difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lash Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 On Tuesday, June 21, 2016 at 3:37 PM, The Bastard Dayne said: Exactly. Thanks for spelling it out for them Ice. You wanna swing that type of counterbalance to one side of a ship??? Lmao. This would be known as listing, it really messes with the ability to maintain a heading. It also really screws with the stability of the ship, making it more prone to capsizing. In modern times this would dealt with by pumping water from one side of the ship to the other to be stored in ballasts tanks. The slaver ships do not have that option. If a ship with a rotable catapult or whatever, lists even slightly, that would have to be compensated for. The way they set it up is a frickin' logistical nightmare. It's like they didnt talk to anybody about anything at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kytheros Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 13 hours ago, The Lash said: Ships have to be moving in order to turn. It is called something like bare steerage. Depending on the type of vessel and length, determined how fast a ship needs to go In order to turn. And the fact that The slaver ships are 4 to 5 hundred yards yards off the coast with their sails up facing the coastline is utter BS. The only way they would not run aground and still be able to face their target is if the anchor was at the very back of the boat and the anchorage was very sound. When a ship drops anchor there is an imaginary circle drawn around it where no other ship can enter. This is because wind, currents, and most definitely a raised sail will push that vessel anywhere in that circle. Any other vessel in that circle becomes big problems for both. And if they cannot aim their catapults or whatever by themselves and depend on the ship to do it, any accuracy because of the dropped anchor and the swing circle becomes almost impossible to maintain. The wind would have to be absolutely steady for the entire length of the bombardment. I do not find this very likely. It would be a little more feasible if there was some degree of aiming of the catapults themselves, but it would still be extremely difficult. That isn't, strictly speaking, true. You can rotate in place if you've laid out multiple anchors with certain attachments being employed. Can't remember all the details, but it is doable. Admittedly, there's no way you can rotate fast enough to target a dragon, but for bombarding stationary targets onshore? Completely doable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armand Gargalen Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 On 6/20/2016 at 9:27 PM, Survivor92 said: GRRM likes to use historical events as inspiration for his books and the Dothraki are partly inspired by the Mongols. Maybe the same will happen to the Dothraki at sea, as what happened to the Mongols when they tried to invade Japan? It would be a fitting end to Daenerys imho if she loses a large part of the Dothraki at sea (which fits thematically with their fear for it) and ends up with a force that is not big enough to conquer Westeros. Then in the endgame she'll sacrifice her dragons and what force remains, like the Unsullied, to help Westeros drive back the White Walkers. Sorry to say this, but everytime someone mentions Daenerys fighting against the WW in the Battle of the Dawn, I remember that at some point of AGoT this was Ned's role Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lash Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 4 hours ago, Kytheros said: That isn't, strictly speaking, true. You can rotate in place if you've laid out multiple anchors with certain attachments being employed. Can't remember all the details, but it is doable. Admittedly, there's no way you can rotate fast enough to target a dragon, but for bombarding stationary targets onshor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lash Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 For the above quote. This sounds very impractical for the purposes of battle. Especially given the close proximity of the ships. And each one with multiple anchor chains out, sounds like a huge headache waiting to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cron Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 No, it should not have been harder for Dany She has three full size dragons (whatever that means, since we've been told dragons will continue to grow as long as they have food and freedom) I thought it was all very realistic, and Dany's finest hour. I've been waiting for her to mess some bad guys up with dragons ever since I first read A Game of Thrones (about 10 years ago, I would estimate), and this week it REALLY finally happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kytheros Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 14 hours ago, The Lash said: For the above quote. This sounds very impractical for the purposes of battle. Especially given the close proximity of the ships. And each one with multiple anchor chains out, sounds like a huge headache waiting to happen. It's something that I've mainly seen associated with cannon-armed galleons rotating to bring broadsides to bear. At any rate, the point is, it's entirely doable in technical terms, but we shouldn't really expect the VFX/CGI guys to do the kind of research it'd take to learn that, when they're concerned with making the visual spectacle work and fit with the script they've been given. Their primary concern is making it fit the script and look good, not historical and technical realism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plastic throne Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 Contrary to popular opinion, I actually like Daenerys, her ideals, but I do mind that right now she excels in just about anything. She is equivalent to an anime super hero. Cute, beautiful, young, have superpowers (dragon whisperer) and fucks shit up against all odds even without her pets (like her fight against 12 battle proven khals). But when the real danger hits, the writers will probably think of something to invert back the dragons (and her) from being OP to being 'average'. Plot demands it, you can't have WW swooped under the carpet like that after 60 hours of build up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grufolo Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 It's quite simple. You're a soldier on a ship loaded with tar and catapults. You see flying mythical creatures such as dragons show up and sink one such ship in a matter of seconds, two minutes at most. You work for money for a slave master, not the most inspiring of commanders, indeed. They promised a quick, easy win. While they go parley with the enemy the beasts show up and it's suddenly matter to make a decision: should you try to hit the dragons with your flammable tarballs, and (highly likely) attract the beasts attention, or should you rather surrender quickly and bloodlessly? Are they paying you enough to attack a mythical creature that breathes fire (three in fact) while standing on a wodden ship loaded with flammable stuff? I don't see it as a tough decision at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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