Who will resist Dany in Westeros?

[cylonhybrid]

11 hours ago, Ice Spider said:

More utterly ridiculous hypothesis. What would be the point if "most" died? Not very profitable. You keep talking in circles and try to prove your point by disassociating your original argument. I will remind you once again that your argument was the trip from slavers bay to Dorne is merely 5 days. You don't die of pestilence, malnutrition, or disease in five days. What part of that don't you understand?  

Google is your friend.

 

Yeah, you got me there, it's ridiculous to think the Slaver's ships would even remotely resemble retrofitted Slave ships. Because, well, you know, the Slaver's are all about conquest, not the business of capturing and selling Slaves. They can engineer ship mounted trebuchet's (which would take a huge ship) a feat never really ever accomplished, yet they cannot engineer a ship large enough to carry over 100 passengers for a 5 day journey......

The point is, it is utterly pointless to do so if the journey is only 5 days sail. If it is 2-3 months sail, then yes it would make sense. I don't have an issue with the fact the Dornish ships sailed to Slaver's bay, even if there just to return back to Dorne. The issue I have is why bother if it is only 5 days journey? It makes no sense at all, and if it was only 5 days trip, I am sure there would be a great deal of trade between the two, and Dany and her dragons would be a well known entity in Dorne, and all of Westeros for that matter. It would also have been a lot quicker for Tyrion and Varys to make their journey to Meerene than was depicted on the show. Oh, and there is the simple fact that Dragoon would have been routinely flying to westeros and back......

I

I highly doubt this. Care to make a wager? What is the point of Euron if we are not to see a sea battle?

Which proves what exactly? That some scenes will be filmed in Dorne? Shocker!

1. ''More utterly ridiculous hypothesis. What would be the point if "most" died? Not very profitable. You keep talking in circles and try to prove your point by disassociating your original argument. I will remind you once again that your argument was the trip from slavers bay to Dorne is merely 5 days. You don't die of pestilence, malnutrition, or disease in five days. What part of that don't you understand? '' 

 

-Ice Spider you make me laugh. It doesn't seem you are getting the argument. The point you make here is the one I made in my original post before you ever quoted me. I suggest you look back to my original post before you comment on the next one.  

And also they only die of pestilence if the trip takes 3 months as YOU suggest. Not as I suggest. I only put out 5 days as a guessimate to show a point. It probably takes around 2 weeks or something, but it doesn't matter for my argument.

The issue is not the length of time it would take a ship to travel there. The issue is the size of the army which Dany has and the space capacity of the fleet. 

If the army is 70,000 people, it takes a long time to transport ALL those people. It woulsn't be a single trip without help. The time would be cut down substantially by additional ships from Dorne.  That is what I am saying. That is why Dornish ships are there, because of the size of the army, not the distance between ports. If you can show me the scene where tyrion says she has enough ships to fit her entire army, including the Dothraki, then I will capitulate on this point,

Also see 

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_ship. It was an error on my part by saying most. I thought I had edited it to many. About 1/3 die on slave ships. And that is 1/3 of the 60% of slaves that are left alive after capture. So really, in our worlds slave trade, only 40% of slaves lived to reach their destination in america. But, if we're only talking about sailing, the figure of people who die is up to 30% You can read how awful the conditions are on board to get that many people on too if you like. 

''It would also have been a lot quicker for Tyrion and Varys to make their journey to Meerene than was depicted on the show.''

Why? Tyrion was captured by slavers etc etc. Teleporting Varys etc etc.  

I highly doubt this. Care to make a wager? What is the point of Euron if we are not to see a sea battle?

Which proves what exactly? That some scenes will be filmed in Dorne? Shocker!

-Yes, you can count all the scenes with Dorne on one hand in season 6. That that was because Cersais daughter had just died at the end of season 5. 

I really doubt Euron will attack Danys fleet on the crossing. He wants her to secure a powerful alliance and maybe even the kingship at kings landing. Theres no reason why he would sail his entire fleet and somehow meet and attack danys fleet without a plan B. Thats just bad storytelling. If I were Euron, I would leave my fleet  at home and sail with only a handful of ships to Mereen to meet the queen. The amount of resources to sail 1,000 ships, just for a meeting I didn't know I could secure would be ridiculous. 

Euron will probably be used for something else like perhaps an attack on Dragonstone in blackwater bay. I would say Dany will make it her stronghold because it was the old targaryan home and where she was born in Westeros. It belonged to stannis who we know led the attack on kings landing from Sea in the battle of blackwater bay. 

[Ice Spider]

On ‎10‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 1:29 PM, cylonhybrid said:

I believe this reasoning is flawed in a few places.

1. Westeros is not that far from the bay of dragons. The narrow sea is like the english channel. It probably takes a few days to cross. So you can exclude , tensions, massive amount of food and water or sickness for this travel because the trip is too short for that. Im sure Dorne also knows about navel warefare also having a naval army and probably highgarden. 

If every ship holds about 100 people which is what would be expected from ships that size, then even if the trip was 5 days travel lets say to get there. Each trip would be 5 days to Westeros and 5 days back. If she had 10 ships, she would need to make 70 trips about 2 years to get her army across. One year if she had 20 ships. 6 months if she had 40 ships, 3 months if she had 60 ships. 

 

The argument here is the trip is much longer than five days travel. All the points I have been making are to dispute your assumption You are failing considerably here. You have also failed to address (ever so conveniently I might add) if your assumptions were correct

1) Why is there virtually no trade between Dorne/Westeros/ and Mareen? And if there is trade, why are Dany and her Dragons such a secret?

2) If Dorne is 5 days travel by trip, how long would it take a dragon to fly the distance? 1 day? if even that? Why hasn't Dragoon been spotted over Dorne?

At the end of episode ten, Tyrion and Dany are in the pyramid looking out at the bay. Dany asks Tyrion if the recent captured slavers ships are enough to carry Dany's forces, to which Dany answers yes, barely. With that in mind, and your hypothesis of it only being a 5 day journey, they could either over crowd the ships, or make two trips which would only require 15 days to get all her forces to Dorne Comfortably. An average school classroom is roughly 800-900 square feet. it can hold up to 40- 50 people reasonable comfortably. a 120 by 40 foot ship is 4800 Square feet, and that is just on deck, not even counting the cargo hold.

[cylonhybrid]

On 10/19/2016 at 5:46 AM, Ice Spider said:

Are you suggesting that Dorne is their landing point? This makes no sense, if that is what your implying. Some of the others are excellent points, with the exception of the sea crossing being merely a few days travel. If this were the case, they would have never needed that many ships in the first place, as they could have just simply made several trips.

Look ice spider. The argument was ' If it was only a few days travel, she would have never needed that many ships'. 

On 10/19/2016 at 5:55 PM, cylonhybrid said:

Look, Danys army is about 60,000 Dothraki if you only include the men and 8,000 unsullied that she must bring to Westeros. She is leaving the 2,000 second suns in the Bay of Dragons to look after things. Thats about 70,000 people. 

If every ship holds about 100 people which is what would be expected from ships that size, then even if the trip was 5 days travel lets say to get there. Each trip would be 5 days to Westeros and 5 days back. If she had 10 ships, she would need to make 70 trips about 2 years to get her army across. One year if she had 20 ships. 6 months if she had 40 ships, 3 months if she had 60 ships. 

So yes, she does need a lot of ships even if Westeros was only a few days away. 

 

To which I replied it is not the distance, but the size of the army that is the issue. You do not make one or even 2 trips. But dozens of trips to transport 70,000 people, maybe more, unless you have a lot of ships.And all that accumulated time adds up going back an forth. Ideally you want one trip which means getting your hands on as many ships as possible.  We know for definite she has 100+ ships because that is how much the iron islands give her in a scene in battle of the bastards. Are you suggesting that if Westeros were close, she should only use less than 100 ships?? Is that your argument? Please prove from this that Westeros is far away with evidence. 

''with the exception of the sea crossing being merely a few days travel. If this were the case, they would have never needed that many ships in the first place, as they could have just simply made several trips.'' - you in the original post.

On 10/20/2016 at 6:24 AM, Ice Spider said:

Your grossly underestimating the capacity of the ships. Slave ships routinely held 400-600 people for a much longer voyage. for a five day trip, they could easily carry 200-300 people. So, thirty three ships (1/3 of the 100 needed) ships could carry 9900 people. Toss in some trips for the horses and its 3 months tops.

Why would Dorne send ships to slavers bay, only to return back to Dorne?

This was an assumption on your part on the capacity of the ships which you fail to actually show.  Also I forgot about the thousands of horses that need to be transported too from the Dothraki. And you can not cram horses in. Look at this scene again, do you honestly believe these ships can carry up to 600 people. I count 25 people on deck and its crowded.

On 10/20/2016 at 10:35 PM, cylonhybrid said:

Umm I don't know were you are getting 400-600 people from. The ships were only 100 foot max, which would be the size of a 15th century galleon. The didn't carry 600 people or more until they invented steam power. So even 100 people is pushing it. Nowhere near 400-600. 

 

Actually it seems the size of the largest crewed ship, the galleon, in the 15th century which would be more advanced that whats in a world of ice and fire housed a max of 200 people crammed together. https://www.q-files.com/history/pirates-galleons/life-aboard-a-galleon/. So if this is the case, you need 5 ships to hold 1000, 350 ships to hold 70,000 people for one trip. And a second trip with the horses maybe. So yes, I showed you need a lot of ships.They are not slaves, in which you try to chain them against the walls and floors, and that is where they stay for the whole trip under malnutrition. So I proved my point of ' you need a lot of ships to make a crossing' here. Otherwise if you have fewer ships (like 30) it takes an awful long time (on the order of months - year even if it was close). That is not an assumption but based on facts from information that is available,

 

Dany asked Tyrion if the captured slavers ships would be enough to carry her Army. Tyrions answer was yes, but barely. The addition of the ships from the reach should have been more than enough.

So an assumption on your part and the scene you mention I cannot find 

 

 

These are the only three scenes in the last episode, not one of them mentions what you say...

Your original statement was two part, and you cannot separate them to try to make your argument. Given your original statement said that the trip was only a few days sail, it made no sense that the port of destination would be Dorne, Then it was terribly silly for the Dornish ships to sail to slavers bay, merely to turn around and sail back.

Why? You never address this.And this is the crux of your argument. You are not addressing it with evidence.

Now if the Journey is not 5 days. but two-three months, then that changes things immensely. You can no longer overcrowd the ships, and need 10X the supplies. Now, this makes sense, as the ships from Dorne and the Reach would be carrying said supplies.

 

Again another assumption you do not prove.

 

On 10/24/2016 at 6:55 AM, Ice Spider said:

 

Yeah, you got me there, it's ridiculous to think the Slaver's ships would even remotely resemble retrofitted Slave ships. Because, well, you know, the Slaver's are all about conquest, not the business of capturing and selling Slaves. They can engineer ship mounted trebuchet's (which would take a huge ship) a feat never really ever accomplished, yet they cannot engineer a ship large enough to carry over 100 passengers for a 5 day journey......

The point is, it is utterly pointless to do so if the journey is only 5 days sail. If it is 2-3 months sail, then yes it would make sense. I don't have an issue with the fact the Dornish ships sailed to Slaver's bay, even if there just to return back to Dorne. The issue I have is why bother if it is only 5 days journey? It makes no sense at all, and if it was only 5 days trip, I am sure there would be a great deal of trade between the two, and Dany and her dragons would be a well known entity in Dorne, and all of Westeros for that matter. It would also have been a lot quicker for Tyrion and Varys to make their journey to Meerene than was depicted on the show. Oh, and there is the simple fact that Dragoon would have been routinely flying to westeros and back......

I

I highly doubt this. Care to make a wager? What is the point of Euron if we are not to see a sea battle?

Which proves what exactly? That some scenes will be filmed in Dorne? Shocker!

First point again another assumption, please provide evidence of this.

You just keep repeating yourself about the 5 day thing (its probably a 2 weeks or so to get there, like I said before 5 days was a guesstimate for my purposes of explaining a point. It was just a period of time from which you would not die of pestilence or starvation etc. As stated in my original post). Its more likely to be a 2 week sail.

To back up your point, you suggest there would be a great deal of trade between Mereen and Dorne. This has never been shown not to be the case? We don't know who Mereen trades with do we?.

Also I doubt people would believe in dragons who live is Westeros. You are coming from a 21st century standpoint. In those days, lets say its like medieval times, people didn't go far from their home town. Why would they believe in sailors tales about dragons? 

As  evidence of this, In our world, sailors used to have lots of tales about sea monsters in the days of exploration 14th-15th century but you don't see millions of people believing them and talking about them every day. You just see evidence of what sailors believed on maps when they drew in sea monsters near the edge of the world etc. These points are not strong indicators disproving anything.

Lets look at the Carta Marina to prove my point 

http://www.old-map.com/Sea-Monsters.htm

 

14 hours ago, Ice Spider said:

The argument here is the trip is much longer than five days travel. All the points I have been making are to dispute your assumption You are failing considerably here. You have also failed to address (ever so conveniently I might add) if your assumptions were correct

1) Why is there virtually no trade between Dorne/Westeros/ and Mareen? And if there is trade, why are Dany and her Dragons such a secret?

2) If Dorne is 5 days travel by trip, how long would it take a dragon to fly the distance? 1 day? if even that? Why hasn't Dragoon been spotted over Dorne?

At the end of episode ten, Tyrion and Dany are in the pyramid looking out at the bay. Dany asks Tyrion if the recent captured slavers ships are enough to carry Dany's forces, to which Dany answers yes, barely. With that in mind, and your hypothesis of it only being a 5 day journey, they could either over crowd the ships, or make two trips which would only require 15 days to get all her forces to Dorne Comfortably. An average school classroom is roughly 800-900 square feet. it can hold up to 40- 50 people reasonable comfortably. a 120 by 40 foot ship is 4800 Square feet, and that is just on deck, not even counting the cargo hold.

If you have to state ' you are failing coniderably here', it means you have not shown that I am failing considerably or you would not need to state it in the first place. All your points are assumptions with no evidence. 

Also if you look at my original post, I said it probably takes a few days because the narrow sea is like the english channel. I don't know for certain. We were discussing your assertion that Westeros is in fact far away that you are trying to defend abysmally with your suppositions. See some evidence that Westeros is close at the end of this post.

1) We don't know that is the case or not... also Dany and dragons have never been shown  not be known in Dorne. 

2) Stop taking my guesstimate literally. That wasn't the point. again I have to repeat myself, It was just a short period of time, on the order of  weeks to explain that it is not the distance but the size of the army that they need more ships to make a single crossing.

As stated above the scene does not exist, This was your only point of evidence. And it doesn't exist. In a classroom, do you also have horses, cannons, food stores, trunks of clothing, armour, captains quarters, navigation tools etc etc. Again this is an assumption based again on no evidence. It is just somthing you state as if it were fact with nothing to back it up. Like your entire side of this discussion. 

 

I have proved my point that they need a lot of ships to make it to Westereos and more than likely, that is why both Dorne and I think Highgarden ships are there. Although we don't know this for complete certainty, it makes sense.

 

Your argument, you assume a long journey because you assume Dorne is further away and you assume because of this that Dorne and the Reach are bringing supplies because you assume that slavers ships were used and you assume that capacity of these ships (without knowing how many Dany has) is 400-600 people. 

Evidence on these points are a scene which does not exist in episode 10 Winds of Winter of Tyrion supposedly telling Dany she has enough ships and the assumption that if Mereen would be trading with Dorne, that people would know of Dragons in Dorne. Both, which we do not know one way or the other, 

So, what....

My only point was that she needed a lot of ships to carry her army. That was it. Which is true, given available information. We know that the iron islands provided 100 ships and we don't know the size of the masters navy she captured. YOU'RE the one who started going on about the distance between the bay of dragons and Dorne without evidence.  You suggest she wouldn't need that many ships unless it were a long journey.Your point is that Dorne and the reach arrive in Mereen because it is far away, without giving evidence of this. Please provide evidence that this is the case or end the discussion.

Here is a map to help.

https://www.google.ie/search?q=A+song+of+ice+and+fire+meereen&espv=2&biw=1242&bih=602&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwig4-ypxfbPAhUMDcAKHRejBuMQ_AUIBigB#tbm=isch&q=A+song+of+ice+and+fire+meereen+map&imgrc=gVx-nWP7uWEkWM%3A

Also you do not even consider the possiblity that Dorne and Highgarden might send ships to carry her army out of good faith in the new alliance, which to my mind, is just as valid a possibility, especially given YOUR point if Tyrion does state she only has barely enough ships. It does not mean necessarily that Westeros is far away.

Nothing you have stated proves that Westeros was far away which was what you were trying to prove. Its all circumstantial and nothing concrete can be drawn from it unless you provide evidence that Westeros is far enough away to warrant a journey of months for 1 trip. Like someone stating it in a scene or something,

It is up to you to prove your statement, that she wouldn't need that many ships if Westeros was close. One doesn't necessarily imply the other,

I never tried to prove that Westeros was close by, I only said it probably was and lets say its 5 days away. Theres about as much evidence of that as your assertion. Bur wait, theres more....

 

 

Now I will put out something really circumstantial but not more circumstantial than anything you hace suggested. According to the link with the map, the free folk occupy an area of 600 miles long. If you use that as a measure on the map, Westeros is 1800 miles from Mereen. From ships around the 15th century, we see they travelled at 12 miles an hour or approximately 250 miles a day http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/columbus.htm.

So you cross 1800 miles in about a week. I will say 2 weeks to be safe. But this holds more credence than your entire argument because at least I provide some circumstantial evidence even though I am not fully convinved of it myself. 

Christopher colombus spent 2 months to get alomost 5,000 miles away. And he wan't following known shipping routes.

Also what kind of invasion takes months to transport your troops over, bit by bit? I have never heard anyone ever doing that in the history of warfare but if you have evidense of it being done in our world, I will capitulate on this point,

 

Also you use the word utterly too much in your posts.

[Ice Spider]

Wow, just wow.

Quote

Also what kind of invasion takes months to transport your troops over, bit by bit? I have never heard anyone ever doing that in the history of warfare but if you have evidense of it being done in our world, I will capitulate on this point,

How about the battle for our nations independence?

Cannons? Really?

 

I will bet you that Dany will be at sea for at least three episodes, care to wager? Put up or shut up!

[cylonhybrid]

16 hours ago, Ice Spider said:

Wow, just wow.

How about the battle for our nations independence?

Cannons? Really?

 

I will bet you that Dany will be at sea for at least three episodes, care to wager? Put up or shut up!

US is not the world and I am not even  american. Dany will be at sea for 3 episodes? There are only 7 episodes in the next season. If you want to piss off the fan base, you can have her at sea for three episodes but we will most likely see er land in the first episode or the beginning of the second depending on how much emphasis they put on Danys story. Like I thought, you cannot dispute my points.

[Ice Spider]

Not going to take the wager are you?  LOL

 

OH, read this and weep.

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/4s2hub/how_many_ships_does_dany_have_for_her_invasion/

 

[Ice Spider]

3 hours ago, cylonhybrid said:

US is not the world and I am not even  american. Dany will be at sea for 3 episodes? There are only 7 episodes in the next season. If you want to piss off the fan base, you can have her at sea for three episodes but we will most likely see er land in the first episode or the beginning of the second depending on how much emphasis they put on Danys story. Like I thought, you cannot dispute my points.

I've disproved all of your theories, and have provided as much, if not more facts than you did when presenting them.

You asked for an example, I gave you one, and the best you can do is claim your not an American? LMAO. Doesn't change the fact I again proved you wrong.

[A Ghost of Someone]

At the end of Season 6, it appears that Dany could easily conquer all of Westeros up to the Wall, starting from the South if all went off or goes off without a hitch. however, 13 episodes left spread over two years is not a lot of time and a lot has to happen. She has Dorne, The Reach and all of her forces with her. I expect a storm to hit her and she looses a fraction of them at Sea, the Iron Born will attack them possibly and will take some others down with them. This still leaves Tyrell and Martel forces already on Westeros. It would appear that she and her allies would still be unstoppable. Then again, this is the show, not the books. On this show, logic is suspended even in and by fantasy series standards. I doubt a lot of it will make sense but that is not the point of the show it seems. Shocking, gut wrenching scenes that look epic on screen due to expensive CGI rules the day. The greatest army, even with 3 dragons, a massive fleet, two of the most untouched kingdoms, unsullied can lose to a seemingly auto replentishing Lannister army if the plot calls for it, or not.

[cylonhybrid]

13 hours ago, Ice Spider said:

I've disproved all of your theories, and have provided as much, if not more facts than you did when presenting them.

You asked for an example, I gave you one, and the best you can do is claim your not an American? LMAO. Doesn't change the fact I again proved you wrong.

Well obviously not, if you could point out how you disproved what I said that would be great.We both know thats not the case.  If you make another comment and don't point it out, it just means you are hiding the fact that you didn't disprove anything, again. I agree about the american war of independence because I am fair but you didn't disprove anything else I said. 

[cylonhybrid]

14 hours ago, Ice Spider said:

Not going to take the wager are you?  LOL

 

OH, read this and weep.

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/4s2hub/how_many_ships_does_dany_have_for_her_invasion/

 

Someone elses opinion without evidence. Shocking. You're right. For no reason at all you've disproved me. Your logic knows no bounds. Obviously this doesn't prove anything,. You know they don't know what they are talking about because they think 100,000 Dothraki are in Danys army. It was commented that 100,000 Dothraki were all Dothraki in the tribe. Women and children included. Thats why I say 60,000. But I don't know for sure.

 

You do realise there are only about 14 episodes left in total for the whole story. Its unlikely she would be at sea for half of season 7. Iy would be like spitting in fans faces because her leaving Mereen at the end of winds of winter was supposed to reward the fans. Now she is finally heading to Westeros. Thats why it was the final scene. 

They could do a thing where they don't show Dany at all in an episode ad they've done before. So at the most, its episode 2 of the next season she arrives. Care to explain how a wager is going to work between two people who don't know each other on opposite sides of the planet?

[Tywin Tytosson]

On 10/25/2016 at 0:20 PM, cylonhybrid said:

 

Also what kind of invasion takes months to transport your troops over, bit by bit? I have never heard anyone ever doing that in the history of warfare but if you have evidense of it being done in our world, I will capitulate on this point,

 

Also you use the word utterly too much in your posts.

heh ...ok ...how about this one :

Operation Overlord

The United States (and Britain and her Commonwealth, among others) spent quite a bit of time gradually building up the forces to invade France.  Months?  Years? 

[Ice Spider]

14 hours ago, cylonhybrid said:

Someone elses opinion without evidence. Shocking. You're right. For no reason at all you've disproved me. Your logic knows no bounds. Obviously this doesn't prove anything,. You know they don't know what they are talking about because they think 100,000 Dothraki are in Danys army. It was commented that 100,000 Dothraki were all Dothraki in the tribe. Women and children included. Thats why I say 60,000. But I don't know for sure.

 

You do realise there are only about 14 episodes left in total for the whole story. Its unlikely she would be at sea for half of season 7. Iy would be like spitting in fans faces because her leaving Mereen at the end of winds of winter was supposed to reward the fans. Now she is finally heading to Westeros. Thats why it was the final scene. 

They could do a thing where they don't show Dany at all in an episode ad they've done before. So at the most, its episode 2 of the next season she arrives. Care to explain how a wager is going to work between two people who don't know each other on opposite sides of the planet?

OK dufus, I posted the link to prove that tyrion said to dany that they had barely enough ships. The other is just fodder. Do you even watch the show? Re-watch episode nine, its in there. That will be another of your posts I disproved. Also disproved your theory on how many people a ship could hold for a 5 day journey. Made good arguments as to why it cannot be so close as well, not without creating huge plot holes.

Now, take a look at the map on this link, and explain to me how the sail from Mareen to Dorne is only five days.

http://www.sermountaingoat.co.uk/map/versions/speculative_map.jpg

 

And then there is this:

"Daenerys's control over Meereen is restored, and she seizes control of the remainder of the Masters' armada. Shortly thereafter, the Iron Fleet, led by the exiled Yara and Theon Greyjoy arrive and negotiate with Daenerys, offering use of the Fleet for the conquest of mainland Westeros in exchange for an independent Iron Islands under Yara's rule. Daenerys agrees on the condition that the Ironborn change their ways forever, which Yara reluctantly agrees to. The combined ships give Daenerys the means to not only secure Meereen, but to move the bulk of her army to Westeros at last. "

Taken from here:  http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Second_Siege_of_Meereen

Now, give up already, stop posting and start watching the show. Hard to imagine someone that actually watched to forget that important scene.

 

[cylonhybrid]

On 10/28/2016 at 5:17 AM, Ice Spider said:

OK dufus, I posted the link to prove that tyrion said to dany that they had barely enough ships. The other is just fodder. Do you even watch the show? Re-watch episode nine, its in there. That will be another of your posts I disproved. Also disproved your theory on how many people a ship could hold for a 5 day journey. Made good arguments as to why it cannot be so close as well, not without creating huge plot holes.

Now, take a look at the map on this link, and explain to me how the sail from Mareen to Dorne is only five days.

http://www.sermountaingoat.co.uk/map/versions/speculative_map.jpg

 

And then there is this:

"Daenerys's control over Meereen is restored, and she seizes control of the remainder of the Masters' armada. Shortly thereafter, the Iron Fleet, led by the exiled Yara and Theon Greyjoy arrive and negotiate with Daenerys, offering use of the Fleet for the conquest of mainland Westeros in exchange for an independent Iron Islands under Yara's rule. Daenerys agrees on the condition that the Ironborn change their ways forever, which Yara reluctantly agrees to. The combined ships give Daenerys the means to not only secure Meereen, but to move the bulk of her army to Westeros at last. "

Taken from here:  http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Second_Siege_of_Meereen

Now, give up already, stop posting and start watching the show. Hard to imagine someone that actually watched to forget that important scene.

 

1. For your first point. So what... it doesh't prove Westeros is far away which is your main argument. I commented on this before. Read my previous comments.

2. You didn't disprove how many people could be on a ship, you gave me a blurry link with no information and then preceded to ignore all my countering evidence, including the very scene that shows Danys armada, thats not the same thing.

Heres the scene again. Apparently, they are magic ships that fit hundreds of men in them.

Kind of like Mary Poppins bag 

And your second entry also doesn't prove Westeros is far away, Also your comment about operation overlord is not right either. 

Also your arguments about why Mereen was far from Dorne were a bit rubbish. You talk about Dorne and Mereen trading. We don't know the answer to that. 

You talk about why dont people know about Danys dragons in Dorne, well we don't know that either. What do you think that proves exactly without knowing the answer to these questions? Your argument itself is a hole in which plots die.

Since you insisted, I will now explain precisely the distances involved with the map you provided.

If you take a look at westeros on that map you show, the area in the north beyond the wall is 600 miles where the free folk live. If you use that as a measure, Mereen in 1800 miles away. So it takes a week. This is not a world map. This would be like a mapa mundi. A medieval map which only showed europe because they didn't know about the rest of the world. If you had read my previous comment. You would have read my link with this exact same map and the distances involved. 

Westeros represents the British isles becaue the Lannisters represent the Lancasters The Summer isles and the continent of Sothoryos represent africa. Essos represents europe, Valyria represents italy with the valyrian empire a metaphor for the roman empire.

Now lets look at 4 independent sources as evidence, don't ignore these again:

The Wall according to the books is 100 leagues long which is about 300 miles. So Westeros is 3,000 miles in total end to end. So I am approximately right, Westeros is bout 1800-2400 miles from Mereen. If you look at your map. So it does take a week or two to get there by ship because ships usually traveled at 170-200 miles a day. If you know where you are going.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Westeros

Heres another source (source 2) with a scale bar along the bottom also agreeing with me,

https://atlasoficeandfireblog.wordpress.com/2016/03/05/a-political-map-of-the-known-world/

Heres another source (Source 3) which says the area the free folk occupy is 600 miles. Again if you use this as a measure, Mereen is approximately 1800 miles away. A 1-1.5 weeks journey.

https://atlasoficeandfireblog.wordpress.com/2016/03/05/a-political-map-of-the-known-world/

So there are three different sources all agreeing with me.

Also GRR Martin said  "I'm sorry, but if there's an Antarctica in [the same world as] Westeros, you're going to have to wait to find out about it, and/or Australia, and the Americas, and all of that. This is just sort of Europe: a super-Europe/super-Asia [Essos], and a giant British Isles [Westeros], and, you know, like they would have actually known in the Middle Ages

Heres a fourth source http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:WorldofIceandFire.png.

In fact, Dany walked further than she has to travel back to Westeros, See this interactive map as evidence

http://quartermaester.info/

She travelled all the way to Quarth where the jade gates are and then she came back again to Slavers bay.

In fact, the distance between Kings Landing and the Wall in the north are the same as the distance between Kings landing and Slavers bay, And we see characters move between those two points all the time.

Where are your sources to say otherwise? That it would take months to sail this distance? That means they would only travel 33 miles a day. Maybe if you walked on a good road and you weren't in too much of a rush it would take you 2 months to get from Mereen to Westeros.

If you travelled for 2 months, it would be bout 5,000 miles or more, this is even well beyond the Shadow lands and goes off this map beyond  the jade gates. Nobody in the World of Ice and Fire has ever travelled that far away yet.

[Ice Spider]

try again.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KAqa9wwODqaFkegqf8Si6fmuE55-M-GMIj0ZmcKUFxs/edit

 

[Ice Spider]

1. For your first point. So what... it doesh't prove Westeros is far away which is your main argument. I commented on this before. Read my previous comments.

It proves you don't pay very good attention when/if you watch the show. You said it didn't exist, It does. You were wrong, I was right. It goes towards credibility. This point is relevant (sit down, let me get out my crayons so I can draw you a picture), as I pointed out, to dispel your original hypothesis. You claimed it was "only a few days travel, from Meereen to Dorne. Later that increased to five days. My argument was, and always has been, why if it is only a five day travel, would Dorne even bother sailing to Mareen. As I have proved, Dany had enough ships (barely) to make the journey. You can over crowd a ships capacity 2 fold easily if the journey is only 5 days. If its two months, then you can't. What this means is your whole premise was wrong. Also, the speed at which these trips can travel was also overstated by you.

In the 16th century, it took ships traveling from Plymouth England to Cape Cod 2-3 months. And Westeros is roughly in the 14th-15th century by comparison (slower ships).

2).  You didn't disprove how many people could be on a ship, you gave me a blurry link with no information and then preceded to ignore all my countering evidence, including the very scene that shows Danys armada, thats not the same thing.

I gave you a well documented link of a slave ship that had the capacity to carry 6x the people that you claim a slave ship could hold. It's not my fault your to lazy (or embarrassed) to fact check. It is such a stretch of the imagination to think the "Slavers" ships were modified slave ships? Really? Come on man! While they may not be able to carry 600 people, 1/2 of that or close is not hard.

3) Here's the scene again. Apparently, they are magic ships that fit hundreds of men in them.

Do you have any clue at all how ships are constructed? You do realize that they carry there cargo in the cargo hold (goods and passengers), below on multiple decks, right??? These are not row boats after all.

4) And your second entry also doesn't prove Westeros is far away, Also your comment about operation overlord is not right either. 

Please pay attention. I know you don't when watching the show, but if your going to participate in a debate, show some class. I did not make the comment about operation overlord.

5) Also your arguments about why Mereen was far from Dorne were a bit rubbish. You talk about Dorne and Mereen trading. We don't know the answer to that. 

It's simple logic, but I understand why it escapes you. The closer Dorne is to Meereen, the more likely the trip will be made ever more frequently. The more frequently the trip is made, the more word of mouth spreads about Dany, her Dragons, and her intentions, This would have Westeros preparing for immanent invasion, or at least talking about the dragons. None of this has happened.

6) ...blah blah blah blah....Heres another source (source 2) with a scale bar along the bottom also agreeing with me,

https://atlasoficeandfireblog.wordpress.com/2016/03/05/a-political-map-of-the-known-world/

I really think you need to take a good look at that map, it clearly shows the travel from Meereen to Sunspear to be approximately 3600 miles. You do realize when you sail, you actually have to stay in the water, right? Navigating a course around old valyria (and no, you can't cut across the smoking sea), that distance is easily over 3600 miles. Now go back and see how long the trip was from Plymouth to Cape Cod (3100 miles). This is a common and well documented journey sailed in the 16th century, and how long it took. Guess what? It took over 2 months!!

7) In fact, the distance between Kings Landing and the Wall in the north are the same as the distance between Kings landing and Slavers bay, And we see characters move between those two points all the time.

Except it's not. Not unless they have invented planes in Westeros yet. You can't draw a straight line from Sunspear to Meereen and say "this is how far they have to travel". Good lord!

8) Where are your sources to say otherwise? That it would take months to sail this distance? That means they would only travel 33 miles a day. Maybe if you walked on a good road and you weren't in too much of a rush it would take you 2 months to get from Mereen to Westeros.

If you travelled for 2 months, it would be bout 5,000 miles or more, this is even well beyond the Shadow lands and goes off this map beyond  the jade gates. Nobody in the World of Ice and Fire has ever travelled that far away yet.

I posted about well known journeys of the actual distance involved, and how long they took in the 16th century. It's better than anything you have yet to post.

Give up already......

[cylonhybrid]

3 hours ago, Ice Spider said:

1. For your first point. So what... it doesh't prove Westeros is far away which is your main argument. I commented on this before. Read my previous comments.

It proves you don't pay very good attention when/if you watch the show. You said it didn't exist, It does. You were wrong, I was right. It goes towards credibility. This point is relevant (sit down, let me get out my crayons so I can draw you a picture), as I pointed out, to dispel your original hypothesis. You claimed it was "only a few days travel, from Meereen to Dorne. Later that increased to five days. My argument was, and always has been, why if it is only a five day travel, would Dorne even bother sailing to Mareen. As I have proved, Dany had enough ships (barely) to make the journey. You can over crowd a ships capacity 2 fold easily if the journey is only 5 days. If its two months, then you can't. What this means is your whole premise was wrong. Also, the speed at which these trips can travel was also overstated by you.

In the 16th century, it took ships traveling from Plymouth England to Cape Cod 2-3 months. And Westeros is roughly in the 14th-15th century by comparison (slower ships).

2).  You didn't disprove how many people could be on a ship, you gave me a blurry link with no information and then preceded to ignore all my countering evidence, including the very scene that shows Danys armada, thats not the same thing.

I gave you a well documented link of a slave ship that had the capacity to carry 6x the people that you claim a slave ship could hold. It's not my fault your to lazy (or embarrassed) to fact check. It is such a stretch of the imagination to think the "Slavers" ships were modified slave ships? Really? Come on man! While they may not be able to carry 600 people, 1/2 of that or close is not hard.

3) Here's the scene again. Apparently, they are magic ships that fit hundreds of men in them.

Do you have any clue at all how ships are constructed? You do realize that they carry there cargo in the cargo hold (goods and passengers), below on multiple decks, right??? These are not row boats after all.

4) And your second entry also doesn't prove Westeros is far away, Also your comment about operation overlord is not right either. 

Please pay attention. I know you don't when watching the show, but if your going to participate in a debate, show some class. I did not make the comment about operation overlord.

5) Also your arguments about why Mereen was far from Dorne were a bit rubbish. You talk about Dorne and Mereen trading. We don't know the answer to that. 

It's simple logic, but I understand why it escapes you. The closer Dorne is to Meereen, the more likely the trip will be made ever more frequently. The more frequently the trip is made, the more word of mouth spreads about Dany, her Dragons, and her intentions, This would have Westeros preparing for immanent invasion, or at least talking about the dragons. None of this has happened.

6) ...blah blah blah blah....Heres another source (source 2) with a scale bar along the bottom also agreeing with me,

https://atlasoficeandfireblog.wordpress.com/2016/03/05/a-political-map-of-the-known-world/

I really think you need to take a good look at that map, it clearly shows the travel from Meereen to Sunspear to be approximately 3600 miles. You do realize when you sail, you actually have to stay in the water, right? Navigating a course around old valyria (and no, you can't cut across the smoking sea), that distance is easily over 3600 miles. Now go back and see how long the trip was from Plymouth to Cape Cod (3100 miles). This is a common and well documented journey sailed in the 16th century, and how long it took. Guess what? It took over 2 months!!

7) In fact, the distance between Kings Landing and the Wall in the north are the same as the distance between Kings landing and Slavers bay, And we see characters move between those two points all the time.

Except it's not. Not unless they have invented planes in Westeros yet. You can't draw a straight line from Sunspear to Meereen and say "this is how far they have to travel". Good lord!

8) Where are your sources to say otherwise? That it would take months to sail this distance? That means they would only travel 33 miles a day. Maybe if you walked on a good road and you weren't in too much of a rush it would take you 2 months to get from Mereen to Westeros.

If you travelled for 2 months, it would be bout 5,000 miles or more, this is even well beyond the Shadow lands and goes off this map beyond  the jade gates. Nobody in the World of Ice and Fire has ever travelled that far away yet.

I posted about well known journeys of the actual distance involved, and how long they took in the 16th century. It's better than anything you have yet to post.

Give up already......

Lol Ice spider,

 1. I actually know all about this. What I said in my post is that the scene didn't exist in the episode 'a winds of winter' not that it didn't exist al all. After all, it was the scene where Yara gave 100 ships to Dany so I did know about it, 

I think crayons might be a but too advanced for you. First off, it was originally five days and I pointed out two or three times not to hold me to that exact amount of days. I meant something in and around a couple of weeks and I have stated it multiple times. So get it through your head, Jeez. Also this isn't a very strong point suggesting that Westeros was far away. Again, we don't know the reason they sent the ships. Again you are just assuming it was because of overcrowding and you have this notion that you can overcrowd a ship for 2 weeks but not 2 months, therefore Westeros must be far away?? Its a possibility but not really concrete proof. There are other possibilities.

2. You better send that link again because all I got was a blurry picture of a ship with no information. I shouldn'y have to find things for you. So sort out your links. Did you see any of these ships in Danys armada?? Any ships at all which could hold that many people?? I didnt see any slaver ships among the amount of ships in the final scene, Thats why I brought it up. I don't have to imagine. I saw the fleet. And those ships are nowhere near big enough, I counted 20 odd people on the deck, say 20 odd people in the hold with food and water. Thats around 50 people. Where the other 350 people fit I don't know. But I guess they're magic ships.

I mean you tell me I don't pay attention and then you ignore something really obvious in the final scene of season 6??

3. Yes I know about the cargo hold, you know they need to bring food and water on each ship for the 2 weeks right? I was including the cargo hold when I said they were magic ships that can hold hundreds of men. Those ships are tiny as you can clearly see in the scene. i dont get why you can't see its impossible for hundreds of people to fit on those ships.

5. There is no logic in what you are saying, thats why it escapes me. The only people who know that Dany wants to invade Westeros are Jorah, Dany, Tyrion, greyworm and company. A handful of people that are her advisors, Dany doesn't advertise her plans to the common people. So the whole thing is just a giant assumption on your part and then you draw what you think is a logical conclusion from it. It would be logical only if 1. The common people knew Dany wanted to invade Westeros and not create her own empire and 2. If we actually saw some people from Dorne/Westeros talking about Dany and her dragons which we have not. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Besides, Dorne repelled one Targaryen invasion. I doubt they are afraid of another. And other than King Joffrey and company, nobody ever talks about anything that happens in Essos or any other continent. So whether people know about it or not is a mystery and it doesn't follow that it proves something.

I don't think you know how logic works. You have to start from an indisputable fact, not an assumption for this as your baseline for reasoning.

Assuming therefore, that Westeros must be far away because of this lack of information on the viewers part is a faulty premise.

 

6. Just no. Its obviously not. If you go directly as the crow flies from Sunspear to Mereen, Mereen is less than 2400 miles.More like 2000 using the scale. It is 2400 if you add in the trip through valyria.  You know Tyrion travelled through the smoking sea in a scene so I don't know why you are against it, Also Dany has also been to the peninsula of valyria when she was travelling around, just not to valyria itself, theres nothing wrong with travelling through it. And even if they went around it, it adds 10 days to the trip max. Oh no!. Now we go to 2.5- 3 weeks weeks instead of 1.5 weeks. But its still on the order of weeks. 

But where you are getting 3600 miles easily is just not true if you are using that scale.

Blah blah blah. Guess whats another famous trip, Christopher columbus left Portugal on August 3 and arrived in cuba october 11th. 2 months and a week. And he took the long route through the sargasso sea. A direct route from portugal to Cuba is almost 7,000 kms. So lets say he did 7,500 kms to be generous in 2 months.

Ship journeys are variable and depend on the speed of the ship

''1597: The 120-ton Hopewell left Falmouth in Cornwall on April 28 and "with prosperous windes" reached Newfoundland on May 18, after 20 days at sea.  "Prosperous" indeed; by 1800, average time from Britain to America was still 40 days, so a 20-day passage with the less developed sailing ships of 1597 was a phenomenal speed.  Per Hakluyt.

That is 40 days for 4400 miles. So 20 days on average for 2200 miles, the distance from Mereen to Sunspear as the crow flies. if you average out fast and slow ships on all journeys of that time period. 2 and a bit weeks. It is much closer to my estimate than it is yours.

Please give up, you just keep spouting illogical statements and untruths to support your claims. And you are convinced that no matter what I say you will never agree even if you know I am right or not.

My problem with this argument is that you draw conclusions from assumptions, You never start from a fact that we know for definite and then say it follows that because we know W, X must be so because of Y and Z. 

 You: Its all: I assume dorne ships were there because the trip is long. 

Me: Why??

You: To carry supplies

Me: Ok, evidence

You: Don't have any. 

You: Oh wait, the amount of ships she had before barely carried her army, so they must want more breathing room for the army because its a long trip

Me:  evidence? 

You: Don't have any.

You: Oh wait Mereen doesn't trade with Dorne

Me: How do we know this?

You: Because no one talks about Dany in Westeros

Me: How do we know this? 

You: Don't know

 

I don't see how you can come to a logical conclusion with that argument.( This is an over-simplification of the argument).

[Ice Spider]

Now your have them traveling through the smoking sea. I figured. Don't let the fact no one has ever done if before and lived stop you....lmao. good try. you loose

 

 

""East of Westeros lies the Smoking Sea, where no ship dares sail. There are those who swear it to be demon-haunted. And who's to say they're wrong?"

―Viserys Targaryen^[src]"

 

Its 3600 miles by sea from Maeereen to Westeros. End of story.

 

Oh, and this is your first post:  "1. Westeros is not that far from the bay of dragons. The narrow sea is like the english channel. It probably takes a few days to cross. So you can exclude , tensions, massive amount of food and water or sickness for this travel because the trip is too short for that."

 

Then later this:" then even if the trip was 5 days travel lets say to get there"

 

And now this: "That is 40 days for 4400 miles. So 20 days on average for 2200 miles, the distance from Mereen to Sunspear as the crow flies. if you average out fast and slow ships on all journeys of that time period. 2 and a bit weeks. It is much closer to my estimate than it is yours. "

 

So, it's proven that no sailor would sail through the smoking sea. You must sail around old valyria. The trip is at least 3600 miles, using the map YOU provided, which is 30 days by your estimate. LOL

 

First a few days

then five days

now 30 days.

 

Well, keep going, slowly your getting there.

 

lmao

 

more of your logic:

 

''1597: The 120-ton Hopewell left Falmouth in Cornwall on April 28 and "with prosperous windes" reached Newfoundland on May 18, after 20 days at sea. "

 

You first quote the voyage of ONE ship (not a fleet of ships) making a  trip at a blistering pace, and then use that to surmise that is an average time. Then you actually disprove your own theory.

"Prosperous" indeed; by 1800, average time from Britain to America was still 40 days,"

lol. in 1800 the average time was 40 days. In 1500 it was considerably longer. And again, only a moron would calculate the distance as the crow flies.

This is just too easy. Fail again on your part.

 

[cylonhybrid]

3 hours ago, Ice Spider said:

Now your have them traveling through the smoking sea. I figured. Don't let the fact no one has ever done if before and lived stop you....lmao. good try. you loose

 

 

""East of Westeros lies the Smoking Sea, where no ship dares sail. There are those who swear it to be demon-haunted. And who's to say they're wrong?"

―Viserys Targaryen^[src]"

 

Its 3600 miles by sea from Maeereen to Westeros. End of story.

 

Oh, and this is your first post:  "1. Westeros is not that far from the bay of dragons. The narrow sea is like the english channel. It probably takes a few days to cross. So you can exclude , tensions, massive amount of food and water or sickness for this travel because the trip is too short for that."

 

Then later this:" then even if the trip was 5 days travel lets say to get there"

 

And now this: "That is 40 days for 4400 miles. So 20 days on average for 2200 miles, the distance from Mereen to Sunspear as the crow flies. if you average out fast and slow ships on all journeys of that time period. 2 and a bit weeks. It is much closer to my estimate than it is yours. "

 

So, it's proven that no sailor would sail through the smoking sea. You must sail around old valyria. The trip is at least 3600 miles, using the map YOU provided, which is 30 days by your estimate. LOL

 

First a few days

then five days

now 30 days.

 

Well, keep going, slowly your getting there.

 

lmao

 

more of your logic:

 

''1597: The 120-ton Hopewell left Falmouth in Cornwall on April 28 and "with prosperous windes" reached Newfoundland on May 18, after 20 days at sea. "

 

You first quote the voyage of ONE ship (not a fleet of ships) making a  trip at a blistering pace, and then use that to surmise that is an average time. Then you actually disprove your own theory.

"Prosperous" indeed; by 1800, average time from Britain to America was still 40 days,"

lol. in 1800 the average time was 40 days. In 1500 it was considerably longer. And again, only a moron would calculate the distance as the crow flies.

This is just too easy. Fail again on your part.

 

Oh man, this is just dumb. This comment shows a complete lack of comprehension on almost everything. Let me break it down into terms you understand but I'm sure you'll find a way to twist it into something else. Or just ignore it and pretend it never happened. You're good at that.

1. Now your have them traveling through the smoking sea. I figured. Don't let the fact no one has ever done if before and lived stop you....lmao. good try. you loose

Now lets look at the scene with Jorah and Tyrion sailing through the smoking sea.Its a bit embarrassing for you.

Other people travel through the smoking sea too. Lets look at a scene in which Quithe is talking to Jorah

Dany has never been shown to be afraid of curses or anything like that. Why should she be afraid to cross valyria? Her own homeland? Bit I'm sure you'll just ignore it and say you've proved that no one sails the smoking sea and comes out alive. Haha

Even Euron has claimed to sail across the smoking sea omg!!

 

Umm..embarrassing for you again. Theres nothing wrong with that statement about a few days across the narrow sea. The narrow sea is a few days sail. This is the narrow sea coloured in blue. So you're wrong again. It is probably 5 days sail across the narrow sea but 2.5 weeks to mereen. O have been saying this all along. Get your facts straight.

https://www.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/gameofthrones/images/f/f9/Narrow_Sea.png/revision/latest%3Fcb%3D20120513190742&imgrefurl=http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Narrow_Sea&h=752&w=784&tbnid=QD8_dvOsc2_-iM:&tbnh=160&tbnw=166&docid=oGDWYD6XylmDzM&usg=__1VM5kx2OAmrCX1O4QobE-oF-JCE=&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiLhJyntYHQAhWlDMAKHaLAA4oQ9QEIHzAA

The four maps I provided showed it to definetely not be 3600 miles as the crow flies, so this is an outright lie. Its 1200 miles to Valeria and anoter 1200 miles to Mereen from there.Thats 2400 miles. If you want to increase it to by another 600 miles for no reason, its anotehr 3-5 days travel.

Also 3600 miles also does not translate to 30 days. Apparently, you're bad at maths too. It is not a month. At most it was between 2-3 weeks. Which is what I have been saying all along. Again, I have to state that the 5 days represented a short period of time you don't suffer from pestilence and which I explained in at least 3 previous posts. But you ignore it because you're good at that. 

Also I wasn't the one the made the summation about the time it takes to sail, it came from here, from a MA of history quoting a book by a professor of History who specialises on sailing in the 15-16th century...cough. So if you want to call a history professor a moron and you're right, go right ahead...

The sentence talked about sailing in the 16th century and that it was still 40 days by the 18th century. Brush up on your reading comprehension. Theres a few examples here of 15th-16th centiry ships travelling further at a shorter time than you propose. Like england to america in 30 days 

For example  1584:  Captain Amadas's two barques got under way from western England on April 27 and reached the Canary Islands on May 10, the West Indies (apparently somewhere near the Strait of Florida) by June 10, and discovered Roanoke Island on July 13.  In total Amadas took 75 days to find the spot for the colony. Per Hakluyt.

.Thats 6 weeks to travel 7100 miles. And we want to travel 1/3-1/2 of that as one pertinent example.

https://www.quora.com/How-long-were-typical-15th-or-16th-century-sea-voyages

 

''1597: The 120-ton Hopewell left Falmouth in Cornwall on April 28 and "with prosperous windes" reached Newfoundland on May 18, after 20 days at sea.  "Prosperous" indeed; by 1800, average time from Britain to America was still 40 days, so a 20-day passage with the less developed sailing ships of 1597 was a phenomenal speed.  Per Hakluyt. w-long-were-typical-15th-or-16th-century-sea-voyages

The average time was calculated by people who specialise in the history of sailing. Not me.

So again you are wrong on this point.

Also I didn't calculate the distance as the crow flies for the sail time, so who truly is the fool here.

Just give up now. You can;t convince a fundamentalist it seems.They're beyond reason. You're just goibf to cry and say I've changed some facts or some outrageous statement to try and justify your points. You're the only one deluding yourself that I am ''failing''.  And that doesn't hold water.

Its only easy because you;re deluding yourself that your points are valid.

 This conversation will never come to an end but I can gurantee you that at the end of episode one we will see Dany reach Westeros. So do whatever you want.

Nothing I saw will convince you, but when Dany lands in Westeros at the end of episode 1 of season 7, remember me.

[Ice Spider]

read and weep dufus.

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Smoking_Sea

Yes, Jorah did traverse the smoking sea, in a two man fishing skiff, not a fleet of 300+ galleons. It also almost cost him his life.

"

In the A Song of Ice and Fire novels the Smoking Sea is ill-omened. Its waters are said to bubble and let off foul vapors and mists which can kill sailors outright. The Smoking Sea is a recent phenomenon, formed four hundred years ago during the Doom of Valyria when the peninsula was shattered by a massive series of volcanic eruptions and earthquakes.

The Smoking Sea is considered cursed and haunted. Most sailors refuse to sail its waters, instead circumnavigating Valyria by taking a wide detour out to sea."

http://iceandfire.wikia.com/wiki/Smoking_Sea

"The Smoking Sea is the body of water which separated the shattered islands of Valyria from the rest of the Valyrian Peninsula. The Smoking Sea was formed during the Doom of Valyria by earthquakes and volcanic eruptions. It is ill-omened and very few sailors would brave the Smoking Sea or sailing within sight of the Valyrian shoreThe Smoking Sea divides the islands of Valyria from the mainland. It consists of one major channel extending from the Summer Sea to the Gulf of Grief and many smaller ones extending south, around the several major islands. The Smoking Sea is so-named because it frequently smokes, bubbles and boils. The sea sometimes gives off poisonous fumes into the air, fumes which can kill a man within moments. Steam frequently drifts across the surface of the water, leading to the claims that ghosts and demons haunt the sea. ."

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Smoking_Sea

"

According to semi-canon sources it was once only a strait, but with the Doom of Valyria, the peninsula was subsumed and the strait was enlarged becoming the Smoking Sea.^[2] It remains a dangerous area to sail and the waters are reported to be infested with krakens.^[3]

At some point the tigers, a political party in Volantis, sent a fleet to reclaim Valyria but the ships vanished in the Smoking Sea.^[4] Circa 292 AC,^[5]Gerion Lannister went on a quest to find the ancestral sword Brightroar and any other treasures that might have survived the Doom of Valyria. Almost a decade passed after his ship the Laughing Lion left Lannisport but Gerion never returned. Lord Tywin Lannister sent men to look for his lost brother and they traced him as far as Volantis, where half his crew had deserted him because of his intent to sail into the Smoking Sea. He was forced to buy slaves to replace them. ^[6]"
 

Honestly, do you research anything before you post.

Again, Meereen is 3600 nautical miles from Sunspear. As the crow flies is utterly useless information.  From your own quote "average time from Britain to America was still 40 days," 200 years prior to that, it took more time.

"Other people travel through the smoking sea too. Lets look at a scene in which Quithe is talking to Jorah "

 

 The sailor Quithe is painting is not traveling through the smoking sea, do you ever pay attention?  He is only traveling close to valyria's shoreline.

"1. I actually know all about this. What I said in my post is that the scene didn't exist in the episode 'a winds of winter' not that it didn't exist al all. After all, it was the scene where Yara gave 100 ships to Dany so I did know about it,"

And now your just flat out lying. This is exactly what you said:

"As stated above the scene does not exist, This was your only point of evidence. And it doesn't exist."

 

 

 

 

[cylonhybrid]

13 hours ago, Ice Spider said:

read and weep dufus.

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Smoking_Sea

Yes, Jorah did traverse the smoking sea, in a two man fishing skiff, not a fleet of 300+ galleons. It also almost cost him his life.

"

In the A Song of Ice and Fire novels the Smoking Sea is ill-omened. Its waters are said to bubble and let off foul vapors and mists which can kill sailors outright. The Smoking Sea is a recent phenomenon, formed four hundred years ago during the Doom of Valyria when the peninsula was shattered by a massive series of volcanic eruptions and earthquakes.

The Smoking Sea is considered cursed and haunted. Most sailors refuse to sail its waters, instead circumnavigating Valyria by taking a wide detour out to sea."

http://iceandfire.wikia.com/wiki/Smoking_Sea

"The Smoking Sea is the body of water which separated the shattered islands of Valyria from the rest of the Valyrian Peninsula. The Smoking Sea was formed during the Doom of Valyria by earthquakes and volcanic eruptions. It is ill-omened and very few sailors would brave the Smoking Sea or sailing within sight of the Valyrian shoreThe Smoking Sea divides the islands of Valyria from the mainland. It consists of one major channel extending from the Summer Sea to the Gulf of Grief and many smaller ones extending south, around the several major islands. The Smoking Sea is so-named because it frequently smokes, bubbles and boils. The sea sometimes gives off poisonous fumes into the air, fumes which can kill a man within moments. Steam frequently drifts across the surface of the water, leading to the claims that ghosts and demons haunt the sea. ."

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Smoking_Sea

"

According to semi-canon sources it was once only a strait, but with the Doom of Valyria, the peninsula was subsumed and the strait was enlarged becoming the Smoking Sea.^[2] It remains a dangerous area to sail and the waters are reported to be infested with krakens.^[3]

At some point the tigers, a political party in Volantis, sent a fleet to reclaim Valyria but the ships vanished in the Smoking Sea.^[4] Circa 292 AC,^[5]Gerion Lannister went on a quest to find the ancestral sword Brightroar and any other treasures that might have survived the Doom of Valyria. Almost a decade passed after his ship the Laughing Lion left Lannisport but Gerion never returned. Lord Tywin Lannister sent men to look for his lost brother and they traced him as far as Volantis, where half his crew had deserted him because of his intent to sail into the Smoking Sea. He was forced to buy slaves to replace them. ^[6]"
 

Honestly, do you research anything before you post.

Again, Meereen is 3600 nautical miles from Sunspear. As the crow flies is utterly useless information.  From your own quote "average time from Britain to America was still 40 days," 200 years prior to that, it took more time.

"Other people travel through the smoking sea too. Lets look at a scene in which Quithe is talking to Jorah "

 

 The sailor Quithe is painting is not traveling through the smoking sea, do you ever pay attention?  He is only traveling close to valyria's shoreline.

"1. I actually know all about this. What I said in my post is that the scene didn't exist in the episode 'a winds of winter' not that it didn't exist al all. After all, it was the scene where Yara gave 100 ships to Dany so I did know about it,"

And now your just flat out lying. This is exactly what you said:

"As stated above the scene does not exist, This was your only point of evidence. And it doesn't exist."

 

 

 

 

Yes Ice Spider and I know all these things before I post, and even more. Stop trying to act like you're clever. Its a bit childish and tiresome. This is why I posted that Dany is not the type of person to be afraid of curses in my previous post and thats not a reason not to go through the smoking sea. The gases they speak of are the sulphur gases due to volcanic activity. It was a volcanic eruption that caused the doom of valyria 400 years ago. Pirates and sailors then form superstitions based on it. I have no doubt some waters are dangerous due to volcanic vents below water.

They have the same stories about the Bermuda triangle, does that mean that these days no ship transverses the bermuda traingle...no.

 Meereen is 3600 nautical miles from Sunspear. As the crow flies is utterly useless information.  From your own quote "average time from Britain to America was still 40 days," 200 years prior to that, it took more time.

There is a difference between nautical miles and normal miles.Do you even do research before you post omg- This sounds like you.

- AlsoNo that was not what was said, you are just twisting words to suit yourself. I have you an example of a few voyages from the 15th-16th century, some in fleets, that transverses that distance in a time frame acceptable to what I propose. 

 "average time from Britain to America was still 40 days," Notice the word still. After they had talked about voyages in the 16th century before this statement. The use of the word still implies that it was the same in the 16th century and it was still like this in the 18th century.

If the time in the 18th century was shorter as you propose, that wouldn't have used the word still in the sentence. And they wouldn't have had the examples of the 15th-16th century I showed previously in that link. You can't just say then, you assume it means something else. Thats utterly stupid.

The sailor Quithe is painting is not traveling through the smoking sea, do you ever pay attention?  He is only traveling close to valyria's shoreline.--

UMM evidence?? Again, no evidence from you. I admit, this particular scene is only sugestive and cannot be used as definitive evidence. But I wont make your mistake of just assuming something that then stating it as fact as you have just done here. We don't know if he is going through the smoking sea or not.

 Also Quithe is not a sailor, LOL. Do you even pay attention to the show or the books. Look her up.

 

 

And I didn't flat out lie lol

Heres exactly what I said in that post. Notice you conveniently left out the part where I talk about those scenes only in the winds of winter.

''As stated above the scene does not exist, This was your only point of evidence. And it doesn't exist. In a classroom, do you also have horses, cannons, food stores, trunks of clothing, armour, captains quarters, navigation tools etc etc. Again this is an assumption based again on no evidence. It is just somthing you state as if it were fact with nothing to back it up. Like your entire side of this discussion. 

And in that exact same post.

Evidence on these points are a scene which does not exist in episode 10 Winds of Winter of Tyrion supposedly telling Dany she has enough ships and the assumption that if Mereen would be trading with Dorne, that people would know of Dragons in Dorne. Both, which we do not know one way or the other''.

So.....Yeah, make sure you're completely right before you accuse someone of lying.

 

Now lets address the things which you ignore for your convenience: 

1. You said no one survived sailing the smoking sea, - you were not right because tyrion and Jorah sailed it and survived. In the books Euron also sailed the smoking sea and survived. So this statement is technically not true.

2. You said Westeros must be far away because they do not trade with Mereen. Then offered no evidence to suppoort this and it was never brought up again.

3. You said people don't talk about Dany and her dragons because they are far away....Again there is no evidence for this. Also consider nobody talks about white walkers either and they are from Westeros. Its just that nobody believes the nights watch. Then, why should they believe in mystical dragons that nobody has seen in 300 years?Even the council of 13 at Quarth didn't believe Dany had dragons to begin with. And they were more well informed then the average Westerosi.

4. You said Westeros must be at least 2 months away from Mereen by sail. Then provided on evidence to support this. I provided a map showing it to be 2400-2600 miles if you go threw the smoking sea which translates to optimally 12-16 days sail. If you want to go around Valyria, its probably another few days but I have to check. Nowhere near the 2 months you propose. But you ignore this point.

5. You said that ships in Danys fleet carry 400-600 people tops. Well we looked at a scene which showed her fleet and those ships are WAAAY too small to even consider that many people. But again, it was ignored.

6. You kept pointing out I said it was 5 days to travel. But failed to realise I said, across the narrow sea. Which is true, it is only a few days sail across the narrow sea since it is only a few hundred miles off the shores of westeros to say, Pentos on the other side of the sea. 

Can you address these points because they make up the bulk of your argument?