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WSmith84

Logically, Littlefinger has to die now, right?

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1 minute ago, Apathetic Onlooker said:

Ohh, I'm looking forward to what fresh new contrivance is invented for why she doesn't explain this to the Vale knights and how Littlefinger gets away-- if any contrivance is invented at all and the whole matter isn't just bloody hand-waved.  I'm guessing Baelish's teleporter will come in handy.

Robyn likes LF more than Sansa and will side with him. Sansa was complicit in the death of Lysa and that can be used against her (if LF doesn't even bother to outright lie) 

No contrivance necessary. The Vale has no loyalty to Sansa. 

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2 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Advantages for LF to take Sansa to the Bolton's 

-makes the Bolton's enemies of the crown 

-allows Cersie to sanction an attack on the Bolton's and make LF warden of the north

-allows him to play both sides like he did here and be the only realistic means for Sansa to reclaim her home. Thus making them owe a debt. 

Except he could have achieved all this by simply lying to Cersei, and then Royce. Tell Cersei that the Boltons have married Sansa. He had no proof when it actually happened, and she didn't ask for any anyway. So just lie. Boom, same result. Then, tell Sansa he has a plan to help her retake Winterfell. Take her somewhere safe, and tell Royce and Sweetrobin that she was kidnapped (basically the same bullshit that he tells them in the show). Thus, he gets the Vale army to take North. This way, Sansa's life isn't endangered by a severe number of things (Ramsey, Roose, childbirth, Stannis etc.) and she is likely to be much better disposed to him. She's also more likely to support his lie of her being kidnapped than she actually is in the show, too. But then we couldn't have had the wonderful Sansa-Ramsey plot. What a shame that would have been.

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Just now, lancerman said:

Robyn likes LF more than Sansa and will side with him. Sansa was complicit in the death of Lysa and that can be used against her (if LF doesn't even bother to outright lie) 

No contrivance necessary. The Vale has no loyalty to Sansa. 

What the bloody fuck were they just fighting for then?  The entire reason they're there is to assist Sansa Stark.  Both Littlefinger and Robyn Aryn say this.

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5 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Except he could have achieved all this by simply lying to Cersei, and then Royce. Tell Cersei that the Boltons have married Sansa. He had no proof when it actually happened, and she didn't ask for any anyway. So just lie. Boom, same result. Then, tell Sansa he has a plan to help her retake Winterfell. Take her somewhere safe, and tell Royce and Sweetrobin that she was kidnapped (basically the same bullshit that he tells them in the show). Thus, he gets the Vale army to take North. This way, Sansa's life isn't endangered by a severe number of things (Ramsey, Roose, childbirth, Stannis etc.) and she is likely to be much better disposed to him. She's also more likely to support his lie of her being kidnapped than she actually is in the show, too. But then we couldn't have had the wonderful Sansa-Ramsey plot. What a shame that would have been.

They don't have Jeyne Poole in the show and everyone knows what Sansa looks like because she's older than Arya. 

Also then if LF did go through with your plan it would basically piss everyone off when they found out LF pulled a George W. Bush when Sansa is nowhere to be found. Don't think the Vale will take kindly to that. So his only real option is to hold Sansa hostage forever or kill her. Which is clearly something he isn't interested in. 

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8 minutes ago, lancerman said:

No contrivance necessary. The Vale has no loyalty to Sansa. 

Right, it's not like they were all big mates with her dad or anything. And they all love LF obviously. Royce definitely wouldn't like him dead.

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6 minutes ago, Apathetic Onlooker said:

What the bloody fuck were they just fighting for then?  The entire reason they're there is to assist Sansa Stark.  Both Littlefinger and Robyn Aryn say this.

No LF got Robyn to go along with his plan of assisting Sansa, he actually wasn't all that interested in helping her besides it being what his favorite person (LF) wanted

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1 hour ago, Count Winter said:

I'm not really convinced the giant is LF. But who else could it be in this setting?

His family sigil is the Titan of Braavos. The Mockingbird is only his personal sigil.

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I have no doubt Littlefinger has a plan. There is no Northern force large enough to move him out. Sansa better have a plan to get rid of him. Or she is thoroughly screwed.

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I would like to see LF powerless at least, if not exactly dead (he saved their lives after all), but I'm affraid that wont happen. Why? First, Sansa is a player now, not frighten little bird she was. Last episode did show us she is much more skillful in a big picture way of thinking. By keeping a secret about Vale army she had sacrificed many Northerners to get rid of Ramsey, but actualy there wasn't any other reasonable choice, in every different scenario Ramsey would win. The preticular decision to be quite is not the reason I'm thinking she won't turn against LF, but the feel of power she gained by the outcome of that decision. After all, she won the battle of bastards. Considering the current facts, she has the knights of the Vale, so the real power is at her hands.

I couldn't miss her face expressions a couple of times while she was looking to Jon, as also her attitude towards Rickon's fate (although reasonable - he didn't have a chance to survive). I think those expressions aren't meaningless, the show runners are doing it for purpose of future story line. She has gained a lot of selfconfindence by time, but now it looks like she's starting to have a desire to rule as her primary goal. I don't believe she would let Jon to be a ruler of Winterfell, nor anybody else. In some way, she's still young girl who wants to be the Queen and she's still her mother's daughter regarding the attitude towards Jon. Remember, both in the show and the books, Sansa has an exclusive guilt for Ned's death (she ran to Cersei and told her everything as soon as Ned had decided to left King's Landing and go for Winterfell) and all because she had wanted the most of all to be the Queen. Also, in the books Sansa never had very much love for Jon, not even close as Arya did, less than Arya did towards Mika (Remember Mika? :-) Hound had cut him in half, or it was Lomi in the show, nvm).

So IMO, she's starting to look at Jon as a treath in claims for the Winterfell, now Ramsey had gone. If she wants to be a ruler she must have more power - that is one of the things she has learned both from Cersei and Littlefinger. Obviously, her power are the knights of the Vale and her treath of Jon is much closer than treath of Littlefinger. After all, she can always tell that story of Lisa's death to those Lords of the Vale Littlefinger had blackmailed in some way to subdue to him and to fight for Sansa in the North. That story will be much more sound if she's a ruler of Winterfell and for that Jon may not stand in her way. I'm not saying she wants to kill him, but I'm not sure she wont do it if it becomes the only option for her. The thing I'm pretty sure of Sansa will try to get Jon out of Winterfell if she feels endangered by him. She's not a young girl anymore, she has been in KL,in the Eerie, she had passed a real torture by Joffrey and Ramsey, now she has grown up, has her own desires and will do her best to make them true.

 

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2 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

I mean, once Sansa mentions to the Lords of the Vale how she was married to the Boltons and not kidnapped like Littlefinger claimed the only logical thing to do is execute him, right? He took the knights of the Vale to fight a battle under false pretenses (he tricked Sweetrobin and blackmailed Royce into going North long before they received Sansa's raven), gave Sansa to the Boltons and lied to his liege Lord and stepson. Surely that all deserves an execution, by Westerosi standards.

I don't think the Westerosi have any standards by now.

And I'm mentally preparing for Sansa NOT mention to the Lords of the Vale that LF was behind her Bolton marriage.

Besides, Ramsay is dead and we still have two seasons to go, so I say Littlefinger lives.

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28 minutes ago, Count Winter said:

Well i think her role changed/is changing. She has a lot to learn in a short time. Don't know which way they go with her in the show, or the books. But i start to like her a bit more. There is more to her then we know right now and i think the show has some difficulties to portray that correctly. 

Well, that inconsistency is the show. They've moved Sansa around to fit in wherever is needed. I actually have no idea what she wants in the show outside of Winterfell.

And the belief in Littlefinger dying this season on this thread absolutely amazes me! LF is going nowhere. He's getting ready to ask her to marry him. And that is going to be a hard one to wiggle out of. Because she just sold herself for those Vale knights.

 

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1 minute ago, Karmarni said:

Well, that inconsistency is the show. They've moved Sansa around to fit in wherever is needed. I actually have no idea what she wants in the show outside of Winterfell.

And the belief in Littlefinger dying this season on this thread absolutely amazes me! LF is going nowhere. He's getting ready to ask her to marry him. And that is going to be a hard one to wiggle out of. Because she just sold herself for those Vale knights.

 

I should mention I was being tongue-in-cheek when I suggested the idea. LF is clearly not going anywhere. Logically, he should, but he won't.

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19 minutes ago, wolfinho said:

I would like to see LF powerless at least, if not exactly dead (he saved their lives after all), but I'm affraid that wont happen. Why? First, Sansa is a player now, not frighten little bird she was. Last episode did show us she is much more skillful in a big picture way of thinking. By keeping a secret about Vale army she had sacrificed many Northerners to get rid of Ramsey, but actualy there wasn't any other reasonable choice, in every different scenario Ramsey would win. The preticular decision to be quite is not the reason I'm thinking she won't turn against LF, but the feel of power she gained by the outcome of that decision. After all, she won the battle of bastards. Considering the current facts, she has the knights of the Vale, so the real power is at her hands.

I couldn't miss her face expressions a couple of times while she was looking to Jon, as also her attitude towards Rickon's fate (although reasonable - he didn't have a chance to survive). I think those expressions aren't meaningless, the show runners are doing it for purpose of future story line. She has gained a lot of selfconfindence by time, but now it looks like she's starting to have a desire to rule as her primary goal. I don't believe she would let Jon to be a ruler of Winterfell, nor anybody else. In some way, she's still young girl who wants to be the Queen and she's still her mother's daughter regarding the attitude towards Jon. Remember, both in the show and the books, Sansa has an exclusive guilt for Ned's death (she ran to Cersei and told her everything as soon as Ned had decided to left King's Landing and go for Winterfell) and all because she had wanted the most of all to be the Queen. Also, in the books Sansa never had very much love for Jon, not even close as Arya did, less than Arya did towards Mika (Remember Mika? :-) Hound had cut him in half, or it was Lomi in the show, nvm).

So IMO, she's starting to look at Jon as a treath in claims for the Winterfell, now Ramsey had gone. If she wants to be a ruler she must have more power - that is one of the things she has learned both from Cersei and Littlefinger. Obviously, her power are the knights of the Vale and her treath of Jon is much closer than treath of Littlefinger. After all, she can always tell that story of Lisa's death to those Lords of the Vale Littlefinger had blackmailed in some way to subdue to him and to fight for Sansa in the North. That story will be much more sound if she's a ruler of Winterfell and for that Jon may not stand in her way. I'm not saying she wants to kill him, but I'm not sure she wont do it if it becomes the only option for her. The thing I'm pretty sure of Sansa will try to get Jon out of Winterfell if she feels endangered by him. She's not a young girl anymore, she has been in KL,in the Eerie, she had passed a real torture by Joffrey and Ramsey, now she has grown up, has her own desires and will do her best to make them true.

 

The biggest issue is that she can't fight in battle herself so the soldiers will not follow her unless she has a very loyal commander under her rule. Vale doesn't listen to her. They helped her this time because of political reasons. You would think they go all the way to Riverun just because Sansa tell them so? "Destroy the Frey for me?" Even if she married Robin, it won't be much easy to control that army all round. 

If she wants to become second Cersei, she needs someone like Jamie or Moutain by her side. I doubt that Little Finger is that person. The best chance Sansa can get is from a family member and there is only Jon. Now if she is smart she would have seen that making Jon fight for her is better than throwing him out of Winterfell because of her mother's hatred towards him. She has no one left, actually. If she is wise she should have ensured so Jon and his supporters get less damage as much as possible. 

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Just now, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

The biggest issue is that she can't fight in battle herself so the soldiers will not follow her unless she has a very loyal commander under her rule. Vale doesn't listen to her. They save her because of political reasons too. You would think they go all the way to Riverun just because Sansa tell them so? "Destroy the Frey for me?" 

If she wants to become second Cersei, she needs someone like Jamie or Moutain by her side. I doubt that Little Finger is that person. The best chance Sansa can get is from a family member and there is only Jon. Now if she is smart she would have seen that making Jon fight for her is better than throwing him out of Winterfell because of her mother's hatred towards him. She has no one left, actually. If she is wise she should have ensured so Jon and his supporters get less damage as much as possible. 

I don't believe she has any interest in Riverrun anymore. After all, she asked Blackfish for help, even send out Brienne who pledged her to loyalty and is actually powerful person in her close, and Riverrun didn't come. And no, I don't think she wants to become 2nd Cersei, she has her own desires, but politics she had learned from the best. Knights of the Vale are under the command of the Lord of the Vale who is just a boy and has a Lord Protector of the Vale, which is Littlefinger, so they will obey him. That's why Sansa needs Littlefinger - to secure her power. And for Jon, I'm not saying what I think she should do, but what Ithink she will do.

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5 minutes ago, wolfinho said:

I don't believe she has any interest in Riverrun anymore. After all, she asked Blackfish for help, even send out Brienne who pledged her to loyalty and is actually powerful person in her close, and Riverrun didn't come. And no, I don't think she wants to become 2nd Cersei, she has her own desires, but politics she had learned from the best. Knights of the Vale are under the command of the Lord of the Vale who is just a boy and has a Lord Protector of the Vale, which is Littlefinger, so they will obey him. That's why Sansa needs Littlefinger - to secure her power. And for Jon, I'm not saying what I think she should do, but what Ithink she will do.

LF isn't a kid, Sansa knows that she can't manipulate him. He is much more of a fox than her. Her only chance is to get married to Robin and get rid of LF. Even with that, there is no guarantee that the Vale army will listen to her as if she's their queen unless she can produce an heir for the Vale which is impossible at the moment given how small and weak Robin is. Her best chance to get what she wants is still to have a general who is her family.

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2 hours ago, Lyin' Ned said:

Yes, a certain maiden has to slay a certain giant in a castle made of ice. 

I hope so but this isn't the books

 

edit: nevermind

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23 minutes ago, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

she needs someone like Jamie or Moutain by her side.

What perfect timing for Sandor's return to the show

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Just now, Robb_Warged said:

What perfect timing for Sandor's return to the show

Yes Sandor to Sansa will be like the Mountain to Cersei. 

Let's hope that Jon will not become Sansa's Jamie. Ehhhhh

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Yes, he has to die I think...but next season, not now.

Now Sansa will take advantage of his blind spot about her.

I don't think she will turn him down abruptly, it wouldn't be wise. He will declare his love and deny again and again he knew Bolton was a psycho as*** etc. and she won't say yes to him but she will leave him some hope, she will be procrastinating, maybe she'll kiss him … they will look like 'allies' for a while … 

then at some point next season, she - who never fully trusted him but played her game this time - will discover he was the one having Lysa feed lies to Catelyn and/or that he was the one who framed Tyrion for Bran's attempted murder, thus leading Catelyn to kidnap him and Twin to react and/or that he was the one who played the game against Ned and … she will be the reason behind his demise.

 

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