Logically, Littlefinger has to die now, right?

[IrisBest]

2 hours ago, missingm said:

She agreed to the marriage. She also agreed to cover for LF at the Vale. She would be just as disgraced as he would be if the truth came out. By now LF has had plenty of time to tell her the story about being surprised by the Boltons. She will stick to that story.

Why would she tell them how she lied to the Lords of the Vale about Lysa falling through the moon door by accident, then how she agreed to enter Winterfell, and ultimately agreed to stay behind and be promised to Ramsey? 

Actually the fact that LF handed her over to the Boltons the way he did would potentially make it very easy for Sansa to come up with a story that allows her to reveal the Lysa murder without getting herself into trouble. She's in a position to claim that she only "agreed" to go to the Boltons because she was afraid of LF, the man who she saw murder Lysa before her eyes and let's say, threatened her into silence. There a number of ways Sansa can tell the story and Royce, who already hates LF, will readily believe her. 

[ummester]

27 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I've been trying to figure out how they could end with Jon's reveal, or elsewise how they get it in there that will make any sense to viewers, but more likely they'll end with Firestarter giving another speech as she sails for Westeros.  Manderly shows up, it's another rah rah Stark moment.  Davos kills Mel. King's Landing is set on fire.  Arya gets to Westeros and kills Walder Frey.  Dany gets ready to sail. Varys kills some people. TOJ Part II. Euron will surely have to do something or show up somewhere.  That should do it.  EPIC! CRASH! BOOM! BAM! Highest rated episode ever!

Could all happen like that - makes sense for how simplistic the show has become.

You did make me realise what they may do with Euron - confront Dany on the high seas - but that would be very expensive, with 2000 ships and dragons and stuff. No, Euron will have to (somehow, no matter how implausibly, get to Mereen before Dany leaves.

TOJ pt 2 has me interested - but not really. I just want to see the Night King bring down the wall and give Bran a meaningful stare - coz I know they can't resolve the White Walker plot until later.

[JGP]

To the OP, I'd agree that Littlefinger has to die-- if only because it's the only conclusion that won't undermine Sansa's perplexing behaviors this season. 

As an aside, I do find it interesting that the Ironborn fleet has grown from 200 in S2 to more or less the 1000 of S6. They've been very busy. 

[Maid So Fair]

3 hours ago, missingm said:

She agreed to the marriage. She also agreed to cover for LF at the Vale. She would be just as disgraced as he would be if the truth came out. By now LF has had plenty of time to tell her the story about being surprised by the Boltons. She will stick to that story.

Why would she tell them how she lied to the Lords of the Vale about Lysa falling through the moon door by accident, then how she agreed to enter Winterfell, and ultimately agreed to stay behind and be promised to Ramsey? 

He accidentally revealed his role in Lysas murder to her in a moment of weakness. She threatened to expose him. He sold her to the Boltons to silence her. Simples.

[WSmith84]

To be fair, Sansa and Jon could just murder LF. No one in this series seems to give a shit about people murdering their King, lords, fathers, brothers etc. Shank him and be done with it.

[Northern_Star]

maiden and Giant sounds to me like Brienne of Trath and Tormund Gaintsbane

[Lady Lovisa]

On 6/21/2016 at 4:14 AM, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

Sansa is not a Stark. She's never been a Stark.

Yea well, obviously. She was a Lannister. And then she became a bastard by the name of Alayne Stone. And then a Bolton.

We might as well hope that she is not a Stark because the dumb Starks make horrible and questionable decisions (based on the shows) and this is me saying as a Stark fan. Oh wait, I forgot she did make a 'stupid' decision by not telling Jon about the Vale army. Yea, no. She is a Stark.

[tmug]

53 minutes ago, Lady Lovisa said:

Yea well, obviously. She was a Lannister. And then she became a bastard by the name of Alayne Stone. And then a Bolton.

We might as well hope that she is not a Stark because the dumb Starks make horrible and questionable decisions (based on the shows) and this is me saying as a Stark fan. Oh wait, I forgot she did make a 'stupid' decision by not telling Jon about the Vale army. Yea, no. She is a Stark.

I totally agree. Sansa has had many faces. Typical Stark move is to die with "honor" but Sansa chooses to live on by scheming and lying. Who is smarter? After all the things she has seen, she is the smartest Stark there is. 

Bran and Jon are now learning that "honor" that their father (and the world) taught them is complete utter BS. Jon got murdered for doing the "right" thing and Bran will find out how much of a hypocrite Ned was about "honor". He didn't beat Dayne in a fair fight and he lied to his whole family about who Jon really was and he lied to the crown, albeit to honor the last request of Lyanna but still Ned would be doing wrong to one side or the other - no win situation. Sansa had to find out the hard way because dealing with Joffery, Ramsay and Littlefinger is more than whatever Jon or Bran ever had to deal with. 

[Chib]

3 minutes ago, tmug said:

I totally agree. Sansa has had many faces. Typical Stark move is to die with "honor" but Sansa chooses to live on by scheming and lying. Who is smarter? After all the things she has seen, she is the smartest Stark there is. 

Bran and Jon are now learning that "honor" that their father (and the world) taught them is complete utter BS. Jon got murdered for doing the "right" thing and Bran will find out how much of a hypocrite Ned was about "honor". He didn't beat Dayne in a fair fight and he lied to his whole family about who Jon really was and he lied to the crown, albeit to honor the last request of Lyanna but still Ned would be doing wrong to one side or the other - no win situation. Sansa had to find out the hard way because dealing with Joffery, Ramsay and Littlefinger is more than whatever Jon or Bran ever had to deal with. 

 

The smart way is to save as many people on your side as you can. The selfish way is to keep all what you know for yourself and let people die in vain why in reality you can make use of them much later. What Sansa did was not smart. It was stupid. 

[PetyrPunkinhead]

On 6/20/2016 at 2:40 PM, HellasLEAF said:

Little Finger not going anywhere.  

He knows how the game is played and is one of it's best players. 

Yeah, Petyr was one of my favorite characters in the show until he handed Sansa over to Ramsay. He's probably the greatest "villain" in the whole series and now that Ramsay is gone he's the only "villain" left (other than the Night King) that hasn't really been punished or killed, which leads me to believe he'll likely survive until Season 8 when Daeny is Queen and Vaerys slits his throat. Or Sansa will kill him next episode. Who the hell knows with this show!

[Lady Lovisa]

7 hours ago, LordPathera said:

Logically, Sansa and Jon have every reason to kill Littlefinger. And they have the capabilities.

All Sansa has to do is trust Jon and tell him everything and Littlefinger either loses his head or is fed to Ghost.

Or, Sansa can tell the knights of the Vale who really killed Lysa and Jon Arryn and that Littlefinger handed her over to the Boltons to be raped and tortured...boom, LF is stabbed a thousand times over by Vale blades.

Or, Sansa can tell the Northmen that Littlefinger is the one who betrayed Ned Stark and got him arrested/executed and Northmen will be lining up to butcher a dying Petyr Baelish.

But that would require consistently good writing. Which is strongly lacking these day.

As of now, Sansa has no knowledge (yet) that LF betrayed her father. That could possibly change after the BwB and Sandor moves up North and unites with the Starks at Winterfell.

The final battles Dany invading Westeros and War with the dead + White Walkers are going to happen soon. The stories are converging and there is no time and space for sub-plots and petty politics. Littlefinger has to go. There is a possibility that Season 7 is the build up to Littlefinger's downfall and his demise. I do hope it is Sansa to do it, hopefully by revealing his schemes and secrets while the Northmen and Lords and Knights of the Vale are present all at once and watch as they squabble over who gets to chop his head off   

However, Sansa has to be very smart and careful if she chooses to play her cards against LF.  For example, Sansa could reveal to the Vale lords that LF killed Lysa, but that sly soab could have paid someone to be a fake witness and blame Lysa's death on Sansa instead. She has the leverage she needs, she just needs to be one step ahead of LF and outsmart him. So much risks are involved. 

I have given up on the show in terms of character and plot development the moment they marry Sansa to Ramsay and turned Stannis into a joke. The only way I move forward and cope with this show is to guess the outcome of events. 

[tmug]

12 minutes ago, Chib said:

The smart way is to save as many people on your side as you can. The selfish way is to keep all what you know for yourself and let people die in vain why in reality you can make use of them much later. What Sansa did was not smart. It was stupid. 

How was it "stupid"? She out smarted Ramsay and saved Jon's ass from his own poor leadership. 

She obviously did not trust Jon and his leadership, particularly when he was up against Ramsay because she knew Ramsay. And Jon proved her right to not trust his judgement.

[Chib]

7 minutes ago, tmug said:

How was it "stupid"? She out smarted Ramsay and saved Jon's ass from his own poor leadership. 

She obviously did not trust Jon and his leadership, particularly when he was up against Ramsay because she knew Ramsay. And Jon proved her right to not trust his judgement.

 

 

 

She did anything to outsmart Ramsay? LOL Vale army crushed Ramsay because they're good fighter with like 10.000, double the side of Ramsay's army. Nothing from her is smart at all. If Vale only had like 3000 men it would be a strategic move. It was not. Asking a big army to help you is a smart move, indeed. lol 

She does not trust Jon, then she does not need him in the first place. Everyone knows the wildings can't be effective against equipped army at all. She knows and she just let them die for...nothing. She should just tell them she does not need them because "tada I have Vale army with me!" That would have saved a lot of lives. 

It is shitty and stupid to let an army die for nothing. The whole battle is just for shock value and some cinematographic effect. The whole Vale army came in the last minutes was not any wonderful strategic move, it was to mimic Lord of the ring and that's it. Horrible writing. 

[Maid So Fair]

6 minutes ago, tmug said:

How was it "stupid"? She out smarted Ramsay and saved Jon's ass from his own poor leadership. 

She obviously did not trust Jon and his leadership, particularly when he was up against Ramsay because she knew Ramsay. And Jon proved her right to not trust his judgement.

She didn't like his original plan either. And if she was so convinced that Jon would do something stupid, she should have been standing right next to him to make sure he doesn't overreact.

Or maybe made sure 

[Lady Lovisa]

48 minutes ago, tmug said:

I totally agree. Sansa has had many faces. Typical Stark move is to die with "honor" but Sansa chooses to live on by scheming and lying. Who is smarter? After all the things she has seen, she is the smartest Stark there is. 

Bran and Jon are now learning that "honor" that their father (and the world) taught them is complete utter BS. Jon got murdered for doing the "right" thing and Bran will find out how much of a hypocrite Ned was about "honor". He didn't beat Dayne in a fair fight and he lied to his whole family about who Jon really was and he lied to the crown, albeit to honor the last request of Lyanna but still Ned would be doing wrong to one side or the other - no win situation. Sansa had to find out the hard way because dealing with Joffery, Ramsay and Littlefinger is more than whatever Jon or Bran ever had to deal with. 

Yeap, and this reminds me of Littlefinger's first lesson to Sansa during the tourney in Season 1. 

Quote

Sansa Stark: "Ser Loras would never do that. There is no honor in tricks."
Littlefinger: "No honor, but quite a bit of gold."

I just hope Sansa forsakes the so called 'Stark honor' when she deals with LF.

[tmug]

2 minutes ago, Chib said:

She did anything to outsmart Ramsay? LOL Vale army crushed Ramsay because they're good fighter with like 10.000, double the side of Ramsay's army. Nothing from her is smart at all. If Vale only had like 3000 men it would be a strategic move. It was not. Asking a big army to help you is a smart move, indeed. lol 

She did not trust Jon, then she does not need him in the first place. Everyone knows the wildings can't be effective against equipped army at all. She knows and she just let them die for...nothing. She should just tell them she does not need them because "tada I have Vale army with me!" That would have saved a lot of life. 

 

So if you were the Vale would you rather have a lot of your men die by battling from the very start or a few of your men die by fighting them at the end of the battle? The Vale had no obligation to arrive at all, why should they risk their men's lives? 

It is obvious that Littlefinger had no intentions to help Sansa's "half-brother", only Sansa.

So are you saying not asking for any help at all would have been smarter? LOL 

She let them die? For nothing? That was mostly Jon's fault for not following his own battle plans and for not listening to his sister's advice. They did their part in getting Ramsay out in the open and unleashing his army -  which was the original plan. They didn't die for nothing, they were a significant part in winning the battle.

[Chib]

24 minutes ago, tmug said:

So if you were the Vale would you rather have a lot of your men die by battling from the very start or a few of your men die by fighting them at the end of the battle? The Vale had no obligation to arrive at all, why should they risk their men's lives? 

It is obvious that Littlefinger had no intentions to help Sansa's "half-brother", only Sansa.

So are you saying not asking for any help at all would have been smarter? LOL 

She let them die? For nothing? That was mostly Jon's fault for not following his own battle plans and for not listening to his sister's advice. They did their part in getting Ramsay out in the open and unleashing his army -  which was the original plan. They didn't die for nothing, they were a significant part in winning the battle.

 

 

 

 

 

The battle was portrayed in the sense that Jon's and his army did nothing usefully at all except dying so Vale army would come and save the day. If Sansa were more of a practical person she would have told them to circle around so Ramsay would still stay outside of WF and Vale army could still take all the glory. The thing is that those wildings (except Wun Wun and those broke into the gate) died in vain because some stupid and distrustful girl did not care to tell them: "You guys are almost useless, let's play decoy wait for the Vale knights to come!"

And Sansa did not give ANY solid information at all how come people say it's advice? It's the same kind of advice as my mum told me to "be careful of the traffic" while she has never ride a bike in her life. Yes mum, traffic is horror but can you tell me which way to avoid accidents?

[RhaenysBee]

14 hours ago, Traceyb07 said:

This. So much of this.
LF totally waited til Jon was down to just a few men. It was almost too perfect. 
The Starks have nothing big to offer and they have no male heir. Jon doesn't count. He's a bastard. 
Sansa will need to marry someone to ensure they keep their home. 
However, one could argue someone else would be willing to marry Sansa, but let's get real. The Starks are a sham. Rob Stark made sure to leave their name in ruin with the dumb decisions he made. 
LF or Robin are the only two left to protect her and those walls. She's going to have to make a choice.
She can kill LF, but that move will ruin the progress she's made. 
She needs to have Robin on her side and if he catches word that she was responsible for his daddy's death, we'll all get to see Sansa fly. I doubt that Sansa could even control that kid.
LF has full control of Robin. There's no room for Sansa there, 
There's no telling what might happen at this point, but Sansa will need to tread lightly...

I agree and I don't think Sansa is experienced enough to play LF, he will see right through her and I also don't see her being accepted to Sweetrobin's heart based on the snow Winterfell incident. But then, Sansa has leveled up since then and perfected the art of lying to confidants for no reason. Either way, I think it's extremely naive to assume that Sansa is in control here. Littlefinger is. 

[DreadedNorwegian]

LF isn`t going anywhere. He has lands, wealth and now an army. He`s just getting started.

[Boudica]

On 6/21/2016 at 0:48 PM, ummester said:

LF now has the biggest army in the north.

We just saw all the northern armies pile themselves up in bodies under arrows and LFs Vale army come in to mop up the pieces. We heard Ramsay say Jon's army is gone and Ramsay's soldier respond so is ours.

LF is now the only person in the north with any military might, I doubt he will die. It's more likely he'll ask Sansa to marry him and she'll say yes because she needs his Vale army to protect her from The Lannister/Tyrell army.

 

16 hours ago, Traceyb07 said:

This. So much of this.
LF totally waited til Jon was down to just a few men. It was almost too perfect. 
The Starks have nothing big to offer and they have no male heir. Jon doesn't count. He's a bastard. 
Sansa will need to marry someone to ensure they keep their home. 
However, one could argue someone else would be willing to marry Sansa, but let's get real. The Starks are a sham. Rob Stark made sure to leave their name in ruin with the dumb decisions he made. 
LF or Robin are the only two left to protect her and those walls. She's going to have to make a choice.
She can kill LF, but that move will ruin the progress she's made. 
She needs to have Robin on her side and if he catches word that she was responsible for his daddy's death, we'll all get to see Sansa fly. I doubt that Sansa could even control that kid.
LF has full control of Robin. There's no room for Sansa there, 
There's no telling what might happen at this point, but Sansa will need to tread lightly...

 

The Manderly army is still out there they were mentioned a few times, they did not fight for the Boltons so they are still there. 

On top of that, and this is perhaps the most significant point, the snow started falling again just after the battle was over. We will soon see heavy snows in the North. Any Southern army will struggle, that is the North's most significant defence. 

But I could see Littlefinger hanging around for a while yet. Jonos Slynt was at the Wall, it would have been interesting if he had bragged about him and Littlfinger betraying Ned. But unfortunately that did not happen in the show. It would have been interesting if Jon knew about that betrayal.