How did the Vale army get past Moat Cailin?

[AdmiraloftheDothrakiSea]

Well firstly let's just remember that this is once again terrible, inconsistent writing on D&D's part that insults the intelligence of GRRM and the audience in a series where GRRM goes into a painstakingly great amount of detail about everything to make sure he gets things right.

Secondly, it would make absolutely no sense that they sail from Gulltown to White Harbour and then travel down to Moat Cailin. Somehow the       Manderlys don't notice that this huge army just happens to sail into their city and they just let them pass to go to Moat Cailin? Then why the hell aren't they backing the Starks when they know that with this huge Vale Army coming then Ramsay is a goner? So no it makes absolutely no sense for this to occur.

It is possible that they were camping outside Moat Cailin (not in it) and ended up taking the long way around that Brienne and Pod did. It would maybe make sense why they took so long to come. But I don't think this is the case for a few reasons. Firstly, because Brienne and Pod say that it would take them weeks to get to Winterfell if they took the long route around in comparison to going through Moat Cailin. That's 2 people who can travel very quickly. So how long do you think it would take an army to get to Winterfell with that long route? A month or two at least. Now we don't know how long Jon and Sansa go around trying to gather men from other houses. I'd put it at a few weeks as Jon was in a rush to try to march south before the snows hit again. So whilst it is possible that the Vale armies simply went around I find it improbable (given the information we're given in the show).

So the information we are given is that the knights of the vale "are encamped AT Moat Cailin". So this implies that they somehow did the impossible and took Moat Cailin. We know that even in the show Ramsay doesn't try to attack the Ironborn from the North whilst Roose attacks from the South.    Instead he sends Theon to make the Ironborn surrender. This tells me that Ramsay is aware of how valuable a well manned Moat Cailin is. Whilst Roose was alive he would have ensured that Moat Cailin was well manned. Roose is a very cautious person who knows that leaving the safety of Winterfell when Stannis marches would be stupid. Roose betrays the Lannisters and is weary that they may march North so I doubt he would ever leave Moat Cailin unmanned. Even with the Freys holding the Twins and Roose doing all he could to uphold the Frey alliance I just don't see Roose being so reckless. It is possible that Ramsay being the reckless person he is decides to call back the men holding Moat Cailin to have     every possible man fighting against Jon. But I also find it hard to believe he'd be that reckless when he's seen first hand how valuable Moat Cailin is, he is an enemy of the Crown for marrying Sansa AND he killed off Fat Walda. So Ramsay has no friends in the South whatsoever. Maybe he just doesn't care but I find that hard to believe. The only logical explanation in my mind is that it was either entrusted to House Reed who let the Vale force through or the Reeds spied this army marching through their lands and asked them of their intentions. When they learnt that they were coming to put the Starks back in power they either somehow tricked the Bolton forces into believing they were going North to help Ramsay and opened the gates (similar to how the Brave Companions and Roose' forces to Harrenhal in the books) or they drew the forces out with      poisoned arrows (as they did with the Ironborn in the books). Those are the most logical explanations in my eyes.

But I don't think this will ever be addressed in the show and once again it's one of those highly insulting moments that D&D have provided us (like 20 good men).

 

[xjlxking]

Take your pick

-they were allowed through as it was an army so big or whatever

-by boats

-smuggled in like Bolton did

 

regardless, take it as is, they got past it. Would you also like to hear how they were all fed and seemingly can fresh to battle

[Ser Hyle]

On 6/20/2016 at 4:56 PM, ErasmusF said:

It was probably as it's been for a long time. Deserted. 

Why would Ramsay set a watch from the South? His allies control the Riverlands. He has no reason to think of Littlefinger as anything but an ally, nor suspect he could move the Vale to attack Winterfell without provocation. . 

The Boltons were in open revolt against the Crown. The Crown's power is based in the south. This seems to be a very good reason to be aware of armies travelling North and/or encamped at a waypoint to the North like Moat Cailin. That would have totally ruined the KotV surprise appearance outside of Winterfell though, so the show ignored it. 

[Ser Hyle]

32 minutes ago, xjlxking said:

Take your pick

-they were allowed through as it was an army so big or whatever

-by boats

-smuggled in like Bolton did

 

regardless, take it as is, they got past it. Would you also like to hear how they were all fed and seemingly can fresh to battle

It's not about how they got passed it. It was earlier established that they were already camped there, waiting to come to Sansa's aid when needed. LF told her this when he met her in Mole's Town and she told him to go fuck himself. This is also how she was able to send a raven to him knowing he was at Moat Cailin.

The giant gaping plot hole is how Ramsay didn't know the KotV were camped at one of the castles under his domain, especially a very strategic castle given how many enemies he had created south of his position (he promised the Lord Protector of the Vale that Sansa would come to no harm, he murdered Fat Walda Frey and her unborn son, he revolted against the Crown by marrying Sansa).

[Jasta11]

They used Littlefinger's patented teleportation technology.

[ErasmusF]

5 hours ago, Ser Hyle said:

The Boltons were in open revolt against the Crown. The Crown's power is based in the south. This seems to be a very good reason to be aware of armies travelling North and/or encamped at a waypoint to the North like Moat Cailin. That would have totally ruined the KotV surprise appearance outside of Winterfell though, so the show ignored it. 

The Bolton's weren't in "open revolt". They had acquired Sansa and married him to Ramsay. If I am Roose, I wait it out. When the dust settles in KL, I am thinking "I'll tell them they can have Sansa as soon as she produces an heir." Time is his friend. Roose probably watches the South, despite the fact that he knows he's more likely to get a bird than an army from KL. 

Ramsay isn't worrying about the South because it's not in his top 10 priorities. #1 - Sansa has escaped. APB on Sansa, who he thinks is heading north to the Wall. #2 - watch his own back for knives. #3 - make sure no one springs Rickon. #4 - Worry about Jon Snow. #5 - Worry about the other houses of the North rising up in revolt. #6 - dogs. #7 - find a new GF. #8 - Bury your dad. #9 - keep a close eye on your maester. #10 - sausages! 

 

 

[LordBloodraven]

Stop trying to make sense out of this. The  show doesn't care anymore about this kind of details. Littlefinger sneaks in to Mole's Town and back to Moat Cailin, without anybody noticing.

[Sigrid]

15 hours ago, Rhollo said:

Personally, I wouldn't mind if they entirely skipped logistics and tactics when it comes to moving troops for the sake of simplicity. The problem (as often) is consistency.

It was a MAJOR plot point throughout the first three seasons that Robb had to form (and later broke) an alliance with the Freys just so he could cross their bridge.

And tgen again in S5 when the problems of moving an army (supply lines were mentioned) through the north in winter were a main reason for Stannis' defeat.

But now, people can suddenly move their troops around and into the north like it's no big deal, because battle has to happen in episode 9.

So  you do want to hear about logistics and tactics of troop movements.

It's true, the strategic value of Moat Cailin is supposed to be a big deal, but for the sake of expediency and simplicity they just skipped over the facts of how the Vale got around it.  They didn't want to waste time and budget showing a battle of Vale troops vs. Random Boltons left at Moat Cailin, they wanted the Battle of the Bastards money shot.

As my point was above though, given that we viewers often do remember stuff from season to season (or from the books), they could have just had Little Finger mention what they went through to get there.  Maybe it was b/c Ramsay did know of their presence but thought they were still buds and the Vale was his ace in the hole.  Maybe it's b/c LF likes to keep things close to the vest. Who knows.  As they've moved away from George the political intrigue that made the material so interesting has been thrown by the wayside and we're left to scramble for some semblance of justification for the things the show does.

[TwiceBorn]

On 21.06.2016 at 1:35 PM, Count Winter said:

It was not in Ramsey's nature to sit inside the walls and wait. As the sadist he was, he wanted to inflict pain and humiliation on his enemies to show that he could do whatever he wanted to do...

True. On the other hand he was cold enough not to get provoked beyond that.

[Lord Lyman]

The Bolton men at Moat Cailin thought Littlefinger was an ally and so when they saw the Vale army, they thought the were there to help defend against the Lannisters? The figured the Lannisters would send men against them, not the Arryn's.

[Ser Hyle]

20 hours ago, ErasmusF said:

The Bolton's weren't in "open revolt". They had acquired Sansa and married him to Ramsay. If I am Roose, I wait it out. When the dust settles in KL, I am thinking "I'll tell them they can have Sansa as soon as she produces an heir." Time is his friend. Roose probably watches the South, despite the fact that he knows he's more likely to get a bird than an army from KL. 

Ramsay isn't worrying about the South because it's not in his top 10 priorities. #1 - Sansa has escaped. APB on Sansa, who he thinks is heading north to the Wall. #2 - watch his own back for knives. #3 - make sure no one springs Rickon. #4 - Worry about Jon Snow. #5 - Worry about the other houses of the North rising up in revolt. #6 - dogs. #7 - find a new GF. #8 - Bury your dad. #9 - keep a close eye on your maester. #10 - sausages! 

 

 

Exactly - they had acquired someone wanted for the murder of the king and married her to Ramsay - harboured her - instead of sending her to the crown. This is open revolt. There was no "no worries - I'm just going to squeeze an heir out of her and she's yours" deal that was made.

You say he was probably watching the south. How could this be when an entire mounted army has been camped at his southern castle for months and he had no knowledge?

[Cas Stark]

They could have avoided the plot hole simply by having Ramsay told that a Vale army has taken MC, and that is his reason to riding out to meet Jon the field..to destroy his forces before the Vale army arrives and hopefully get Sansa back as well.

This makes sense, its consistent with the show's previous MC stuff and there is still a question if will the Vale army arrive in time....

It still wouldn't explain Sansa's refusing to tell her brother...but it's an easy solution, all that is needed is a handful of changes in the script.  The fact that there are these super obvious easy fixes to plot holes and the show never does it, seems like overwhelming evidence that they don't care about plot holes.

[Ser Hyle]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

They could have avoided the plot hole simply by having Ramsay told that a Vale army has taken MC, and that is his reason to riding out to meet Jon the field..to destroy his forces before the Vale army arrives and hopefully get Sansa back as well.

This makes sense, its consistent with the show's previous MC stuff and there is still a question if will the Vale army arrive in time....

It still wouldn't explain Sansa's refusing to tell her brother...but it's an easy solution, all that is needed is a handful of changes in the script.  The fact that there are these super obvious easy fixes to plot holes and the show never does it, seems like overwhelming evidence that they don't care about plot holes.

This would make sense, but it would ruin the surprise when the KotV show up and turn the tide of the battle. They very evidently value cheap devices over well thought out plots.

[ErasmusF]

2 hours ago, Ser Hyle said:

Exactly - they had acquired someone wanted for the murder of the king and married her to Ramsay - harboured her - instead of sending her to the crown. This is open revolt. There was no "no worries - I'm just going to squeeze an heir out of her and she's yours" deal that was made.

You say he was probably watching the south. How could this be when an entire mounted army has been camped at his southern castle for months and he had no knowledge?

Ummm, that's a pretty low bar for open revolt. Especially for Roose, who can come right back and say he did it to hold the North. Harboring a fugitive isn't open revolt. 

Moreover, Sansa isn't in Tommen's Top 10 priorities right now. And Cersei is out of power. Tommen's Top 10: 1) HS has my wife. 2) My wife hasn't been giving me the wedding bed treats. 3) Where are my kitties? 4) Kevan is kind of mean to me. 5) Why is mommy so mean? 6) What can I do to make the HS happy? 7) The HS told me something really weird. Then he made me sit on his lap. 8) Who is the big dude my mom is dating now? 9) Qyburn is creepy! 10) Did someone say my sister died? Bonus 11) Let's go wee on Joffrey's grave! 

[Ser Hyle]

36 minutes ago, ErasmusF said:

Ummm, that's a pretty low bar for open revolt. Especially for Roose, who can come right back and say he did it to hold the North. Harboring a fugitive isn't open revolt. 

Moreover, Sansa isn't in Tommen's Top 10 priorities right now. And Cersei is out of power. Tommen's Top 10: 1) HS has my wife. 2) My wife hasn't been giving me the wedding bed treats. 3) Where are my kitties? 4) Kevan is kind of mean to me. 5) Why is mommy so mean? 6) What can I do to make the HS happy? 7) The HS told me something really weird. Then he made me sit on his lap. 8) Who is the big dude my mom is dating now? 9) Qyburn is creepy! 10) Did someone say my sister died? Bonus 11) Let's go wee on Joffrey's grave! 

Would you accept the term rebellion to replace revolt?

Because:

Game of Thrones Season 6, Episode 1: The Red Woman

Roose Bolton (to Ramsay):

I rebelled against the crown to arrange your marriage to Sansa Stark.
Do you think that burning wagons in the night and mowing down tired, outnumbered Baratheons is the same as facing a prepared and provisioned Lannister army? No.
A reckoning will come.
We need the North to face it.
The entire North.

__________

In conclusion: Ramsay not knowing that an entire mounted army of knights was camped at his southern waycastle is not just a plot hole, but a plot hole the writers specifically created. And your 'priorities' jokes aren't funny.

[Rhollo]

13 hours ago, Lord Lyman said:

The Bolton men at Moat Cailin thought Littlefinger was an ally and so when they saw the Vale army, they thought the were there to help defend against the Lannisters? The figured the Lannisters would send men against them, not the Arryn's.

But who would LF ever explain to the Vale knights that the Boltons see them as an ally ?

They marched up there because LF claimed Sansa was captured by the Boltons and they are on a mission to help her. If they are met by the Boltons with anything but hostility, LFs story immediately falls apart.

[Darkstream]

On 6/22/2016 at 8:56 AM, xjlxking said:

Take your pick

-they were allowed through as it was an army so big or whatever

-by boats

-smuggled in like Bolton did

 

regardless, take it as is, they got past it. Would you also like to hear how they were all fed and seemingly can fresh to battle

  Take your pick? None of these are valid explanations. These sound just like the nonsensical, honey potting that d$d attempt in their post show (because our actual show doesn't make sense) program.

 I especially love the "or whatever", very sound and convincing explanation.

[Lord Lyman]

5 hours ago, Rhollo said:

But who would LF ever explain to the Vale knights that the Boltons see them as an ally ?

They marched up there because LF claimed Sansa was captured by the Boltons and they are on a mission to help her. If they are met by the Boltons with anything but hostility, LFs story immediately falls apart.

All he needs is a small number of troops to go with him. He comes in under a peace banner, and then slaughters them, leaving the doors open for the rest of the army. Take control of the ravens before the a message could be sent, and Ramsay would never know.

It's no different then what Ramsay did to the Ironborn, nor what Littlefinger did to Eddard in King's Landing.

[Rhollo]

8 minutes ago, Lord Lyman said:

All he needs is a small number of troops to go with him. He comes in under a peace banner, and then slaughters them, leaving the doors open for the rest of the army. Take control of the ravens before the a message could be sent, and Ramsay would never know.

It's no different then what Ramsay did to the Ironborn, nor what Littlefinger did to Eddard in King's Landing.

It is different to said examples, because LFs problem is not how to fool the Boltons in believing they are on their side and then betraying them.

His problem is explaining to the Vale why the Boltons should ever trust LF enough to make this ruse possible.

[Cas Stark]

16 hours ago, Ser Hyle said:

Would you accept the term rebellion to replace revolt?

Because:

Game of Thrones Season 6, Episode 1: The Red Woman

Roose Bolton (to Ramsay):

I rebelled against the crown to arrange your marriage to Sansa Stark.
Do you think that burning wagons in the night and mowing down tired, outnumbered Baratheons is the same as facing a prepared and provisioned Lannister army? No.
A reckoning will come.
We need the North to face it.
The entire North.

__________

In conclusion: Ramsay not knowing that an entire mounted army of knights was camped at his southern waycastle is not just a plot hole, but a plot hole the writers specifically created. And your 'priorities' jokes aren't funny.

Poor Roose.  

If only he had known that he didn't need a Stark to hold the North, LOL.