R+L=J confirmation? Who/how?

[Cron]

I believe Jon's parentage will be revealed through and by Bran, to be later confirmed and vouched for by Howland Reed.

Not exactly novel or "out of the box" thinking, I know, but hey, the question was asked, so I threw in my two cents.

 

[Chib]

I think Jon's heritage is very important to the plot as a whole to some extent or else Bloodraven wouldn't have shown Bran that ToJ memories.

[ShamblerBob]

56 minutes ago, Chib said:

I think Jon's heritage is very important to the plot as a whole to some extent or else Bloodraven wouldn't have shown Bran that ToJ memories.

He also showed him a number of other scenes which had nothing to do with the Tower of Joy. Tower of Joy is about making the fans of R+L = J happy. The actual sequence has had no effect on Bran so far. Most likely, they will show the rest and Bran will see other visions at the same time, and he won't comment on it, or think anything of it. We'll probably see a baby but there will be no commentary on who the baby was or if it is significant and why. It'll just be history. Because (supposing it's true) so far nobody has postulated a consequence that improves the arc of Jon's story or the story as a whole. 

The 'secret prince' or 'chosen one' trope is overused and boring, we don't need yet another story based on it. Show the sequence, forget it and move on (like they did with Dorne). 

[Chib]

1 hour ago, ShamblerBob said:

He also showed him a number of other scenes which had nothing to do with the Tower of Joy. Tower of Joy is about making the fans of R+L = J happy. The actual sequence has had no effect on Bran so far. Most likely, they will show the rest and Bran will see other visions at the same time, and he won't comment on it, or think anything of it. We'll probably see a baby but there will be no commentary on who the baby was or if it is significant and why. It'll just be history. Because (supposing it's true) so far nobody has postulated a consequence that improves the arc of Jon's story or the story as a whole. 

The 'secret prince' or 'chosen one' trope is overused and boring, we don't need yet another story based on it. Show the sequence, forget it and move on (like they did with Dorne). 

 

No, it might be important in the war against WW. Or else Bloodraven wouldn't show it to Bran. All what he has sown Bran has some connection to the war.

[Kytheros]

15 hours ago, illinifan said:

Well.  The North is not going to be bending a knee to Dany.  Also Jon will want the dragons used against the White Walkers.  Tyrion and Jon have a history (as well as Tyrion and Sansa) but he might not believe him.  Here is Ned's "son" of all people who does the dishonorable thing of abandoning his post at the NW and making himself king.  And now he is demanding that Dany use her dragons against creatures that do not exist rather than bending a knee.  

"We knelt to the dragons. The dragons are gone." That's a line that seems telling to me.

The North knelt to dragons once before. Dany has dragons - the dragons are back. I expect that the North will kneel to dragons once again. Especially with an R+L=J reveal - and it's likely that the only way to "prove" R+L=J to a lot of people, including Dany, is for Jon to bond with one of the dragons. Plus, it's one way to make sure that the dragons are aimed at the White Walkers, instead of Northerners.

[King Edd of House Tollet]

I have this feeling that Benjen knows about R+L=J

Follow me if you please:

 

-There's been a lot of speculation among book readers that Benjen helped Lyanna and Rhaegar escaped after the Harrenhall tournament. After the disaster that followed it (Rickard and Brandon deaths by the hands of the Mad King, RObert's Rebellion, etc..), that made him feel guilty, so he told Ned what he did. That guilty is what eventually made him decide to go to the Night's Watch. This is important for the next part.

-Now, one thing that had always bugged me. Why Ned would go to the Tower of Joy with only six companions when he was commanding an army at the time? He problably knew he was going to find the kingsguard there, so why not bringing more fighters when he knows he will fight the finest swordsman in Westeros? Because, Benjen already told him that. I don't remember us seeing any indication on how Ned knew to go to ToJ in the first place.

-So, if Ned knew beforehand what he was going to find in ToJ, he only brought six men because he need to keep it a secret. At this point, Ned already saw what happened to Elia and her children, then he fears the same will happen to Lyanna and a possible child from her and Rhaegar. That's why Ned needs to make Jon his bastard, to raise no suspicions about the boy parentage.

-Even if Benjen didn't know all that, I think Ned told him the true about Lyanna's death to him only after returning from the war, since he was his brother's and Lyanna's. 

So, I just therorized this, to say to maybe after seeing the rest of ToJ vision, Benjen will confirm the truth to Bran

[Rory Snow]

18 minutes ago, King Edd of House Tollet said:

-Even if Benjen didn't know all that, I think Ned told him the true about Lyanna's death to him only after returning from the war, since he was his brother's and Lyanna's. 

Agreed. You've set up a convincing scenario, I never considered Benjen's involvement after the Harrenhall Tourney. Actually I've felt all along that Benjen knew, but for the simple reason that I can't imagine Ned keeping that secret from him. Also Benjen always showed affection towards Jon, as if he and Ned had a plan that Benjen would take Jon to the Wall eventually as part of the protection plan. Benjen confirming and possibly filling in the blanks in Bran's vision makes all the sense in the world.

[Chib]

Benjen knowing about Jon's heritage is a possibility but he can't pass the wall know, and not many people will believe him. 

[Rory Snow]

2 hours ago, Chib said:

Benjen knowing about Jon's heritage is a possibility but he can't pass the wall know, and not many people will believe him. 

But Benjen can confirm it all for Bran if he has questions about his vision

[CrypticWeirwood]

21 hours ago, Masha said:

When Dany arrives and every noble near her will come and to check her and dragons out, LF will come and say - you heard about that self-proclaimed KofN? Not only he is NOT supporting you and is a rebel, he is your potential rival - male legitimate son of Rhaegar who can get other rebel lords to support him over you!

The wildcard factor here is that Bran is now old enough to get his driver’s licence, so when Dany gets there all Bran has to do is take one of the dragons out for test drive.  From there he can work his way up to driving all three at once.

[CrypticWeirwood]

3 hours ago, Rory Snow said:

Agreed. You've set up a convincing scenario, I never considered Benjen's involvement after the Harrenhall Tourney. Actually I've felt all along that Benjen knew, but for the simple reason that I can't imagine Ned keeping that secret from him. Also Benjen always showed affection towards Jon, as if he and Ned had a plan that Benjen would take Jon to the Wall eventually as part of the protection plan. Benjen confirming and possibly filling in the blanks in Bran's vision makes all the sense in the world.

It’s been long suspected that Benjen was exiled offstage so early in the game— as soon as feasible, really — for the selfsame reason we’ve not yet met Lord Reed: because Benjen knows too much about things Martin needs hidden.  

Notice how it is only now, when under Bloodraven’s tutelage Bran has gained the ability to relive crucial scenes of his own family’s history, that the showrunners have returned Benjen to the main stage.  That’s because he’s no longer a risk for spilling the beans about Jon to anyone who doesn’t already know, let alone to Robert

He might be there to confirm them, though.

[The Dew]

I wish that Howland Reed will be in WF for the interment of Rickon Stark. After that I would love to see Lord Reed talking to all the Lords present in the crypts (Bran simultaneously seeing everything) about a matter of importance now that their Liege Lord passed. He could provide evidence whilst in the crypts of Jon's true parentage, and substantiate his allegations (in the meanwhile we hear Lord Reed's voice and Bran's vision at the Tower of Joy). After his narration is finished he could proclaim Jon the KITN and Lord of Winterfell, kneel, and offer House Reed's fealty by re-affirming the usual oath that the Reeds traditionally offered to their liege lords:

Spoiler

"To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater. Hearth and harvest and we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you."

"I swear it by earth and water."

"I swear it by bronze and iron."

"I swear it by ice and fire."

 

[Masha]

1 hour ago, The Dew said:

I wish that Howland Reed will be in WF for the interment of Rickon Stark. After that I would love to see Lord Reed talking to all the Lords present in the crypts (Bran simultaneously seeing everything) about a matter of importance now that their Liege Lord passed. He could provide evidence whilst in the crypts of Jon's true parentage, and substantiate his allegations (in the meanwhile we hear Lord Reed's voice and Bran's vision at the Tower of Joy). After his narration is finished he could proclaim Jon the KITN and Lord of Winterfell, kneel, and offer House Reed's fealty by re-affirming the usual oath that the Reeds traditionally offered to their liege lords:

  Hide contents

"To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater. Hearth and harvest and we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you."

"I swear it by earth and water."

"I swear it by bronze and iron."

"I swear it by ice and fire."

 

Unfortunately, while those oaths sound great on paper, as we have seen from season 1(Nights Watch oath) sound kind of silly when you hear them out loud 

[CrypticWeirwood]

1 hour ago, The Dew said:

I wish that Howland Reed will be in WF for the interment of Rickon Stark.

Sorry, Lord Reed is going far be too busy with Bran and Ned down at the Tower of Joy to make an appearance at Winterfell this episode.

Maybe next season.

[Nami]

10 hours ago, King Edd of House Tollet said:

I have this feeling that Benjen knows about R+L=J

Follow me if you please:

 

-There's been a lot of speculation among book readers that Benjen helped Lyanna and Rhaegar escaped after the Harrenhall tournament. After the disaster that followed it (Rickard and Brandon deaths by the hands of the Mad King, RObert's Rebellion, etc..), that made him feel guilty, so he told Ned what he did. That guilty is what eventually made him decide to go to the Night's Watch. This is important for the next part.

-Now, one thing that had always bugged me. Why Ned would go to the Tower of Joy with only six companions when he was commanding an army at the time? He problably knew he was going to find the kingsguard there, so why not bringing more fighters when he knows he will fight the finest swordsman in Westeros? Because, Benjen already told him that. I don't remember us seeing any indication on how Ned knew to go to ToJ in the first place.

-So, if Ned knew beforehand what he was going to find in ToJ, he only brought six men because he need to keep it a secret. At this point, Ned already saw what happened to Elia and her children, then he fears the same will happen to Lyanna and a possible child from her and Rhaegar. That's why Ned needs to make Jon his bastard, to raise no suspicions about the boy parentage.

-Even if Benjen didn't know all that, I think Ned told him the true about Lyanna's death to him only after returning from the war, since he was his brother's and Lyanna's. 

So, I just therorized this, to say to maybe after seeing the rest of ToJ vision, Benjen will confirm the truth to Bran

1 - They didn't elope right after the Harrenhall tourney. It was at least one year later and Lyanna was in the Riverlands.

2- Maybe Ned thought the KG weren't there. Honestly, from someone who didn't know about a baby it makes no sense for the KG to be there since Rhaegar isn't there to be protected. Plus he was obviously careful over what they were going to find there so he only brought those he trusted and those are few. Couldn't afford a bunch of soldiers seeing Lyanna in whatever state they were going to find her in and then spreading the word around. He couldn't have kept Jon's birth a secret if anyone he didn't trust saw that.

3 - If Benjen knows anything it could be that maybe he saw Lyanna fleeing with Rhaegar in the Riverlands or was aware of whatever went on between them in Harrenhall and came to the obvious conclusion of R+L=J.

[Rory Snow]

5 hours ago, The Dew said:

I wish that Howland Reed will be in WF for the interment of Rickon Stark. After that I would love to see Lord Reed talking to all the Lords present in the crypts (Bran simultaneously seeing everything) about a matter of importance now that their Liege Lord passed. He could provide evidence whilst in the crypts of Jon's true parentage, and substantiate his allegations (in the meanwhile we hear Lord Reed's voice and Bran's vision at the Tower of Joy). After his narration is finished he could proclaim Jon the KITN and Lord of Winterfell, kneel, and offer House Reed's fealty by re-affirming the usual oath that the Reeds traditionally offered to their liege lords:

I like that...

Just as an aside.. do we know who else was with Ned at the Tower of Joy? Obviously Howland Reed was the only other survivor, but I'm curious who else Ned trusted enough to bring with him.

[jrod]

1 hour ago, Rory Snow said:

I like that...

Just as an aside.. do we know who else was with Ned at the Tower of Joy? Obviously Howland Reed was the only other survivor, but I'm curious who else Ned trusted enough to bring with him.

One of the sites I saw says it was Howland Reed, Lord Willam Dustin, Ethan Glover, Martyn Castle, Theo Wull, Ser Mark Ryswell.  So all other northerners, mostly nobles.

[tugela]

On ‎6‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 1:43 PM, illinifan said:

I think that Westros is going to keep fighting each other and ignoring the real threat until it is too late.  LF pulls Jon away from the WWs and gets him involved in the Great Game.  Dany does not believe about the threat and thinks it is a made up fairy tale.

According to the stories about the forging of Lightbringer, there were three attempts. Firstly, Azor Ahai labored to make the sword and tempered it by plunging into water, but the blade shattered (Jon attempting to unite the wildings, but failing at Hardholm). Then, Azor Ahai labored to make a second sword, and plunged it into a captured lion to temper it, but the blade shattered (Jon attempting to unite Westeros against the Lannisters, who he overthrows, but disunity ensues as Westeros is plunged into civil war). Finally, Azor Ahai labored to make a third blade, and plunged it into the bosom of his wife to temper the blade. Her soul was imbued into the blade and Lightbringer came into being (Jon teaming up with Daenerys, finally uniting Westeros against the white walkers).

Daenerys will be Lightbringer, the sword that defeats the White Walkers.

This is how the story will unfold.

[tugela]

13 hours ago, Rory Snow said:

Agreed. You've set up a convincing scenario, I never considered Benjen's involvement after the Harrenhall Tourney. Actually I've felt all along that Benjen knew, but for the simple reason that I can't imagine Ned keeping that secret from him. Also Benjen always showed affection towards Jon, as if he and Ned had a plan that Benjen would take Jon to the Wall eventually as part of the protection plan. Benjen confirming and possibly filling in the blanks in Bran's vision makes all the sense in the world.

Actually, Benjen was reluctant to take Jon to the wall. He wanted Jon to discover himself first before making a decision as final as joining the nights watch. He only relented because Jon was so insistent.

[tugela]

19 hours ago, Chib said:

I think Jon's heritage is very important to the plot as a whole to some extent or else Bloodraven wouldn't have shown Bran that ToJ memories.

While his heritage is important, Bloodraven's role is not. Showing Bran through a vision was a mechanic necessary in the show because otherwise it would be difficult to introduce the audience to the topic. In the books ToJ is alluded to a number of times through dreams and recollections, so readers would be well aware of it and thinking about it, but you can't do that on TV. So they used Bran's vision instead so that WE would know about ToJ. It does not mean that Bran will be the discovery mechanism for Jon. More likely that will come through meeting Howland Reed, just as it probably does through the books.