R+L=J confirmation? Who/how?

[Rory Snow]

2 hours ago, tugela said:

Actually, Benjen was reluctant to take Jon to the wall. He wanted Jon to discover himself first before making a decision as final as joining the nights watch. He only relented because Jon was so insistent.

The thought had clearly been put in Jon's head tho', it seemed inevitable. Seemed to me, Benjen's reluctance was mostly due to Jon's age

[illinifan]

2 hours ago, tugela said:

According to the stories about the forging of Lightbringer, there were three attempts. Firstly, Azor Ahai labored to make the sword and tempered it by plunging into water, but the blade shattered (Jon attempting to unite the wildings, but failing at Hardholm). Then, Azor Ahai labored to make a second sword, and plunged it into a captured lion to temper it, but the blade shattered (Jon attempting to unite Westeros against the Lannisters, who he overthrows, but disunity ensues as Westeros is plunged into civil war). Finally, Azor Ahai labored to make a third blade, and plunged it into the bosom of his wife to temper the blade. Her soul was imbued into the blade and Lightbringer came into being (Jon teaming up with Daenerys, finally uniting Westeros against the white walkers).

Daenerys will be Lightbringer, the sword that defeats the White Walkers.

This is how the story will unfold.

Interesting.  How do you think Jon overthrows the Lannisters and why couldn't all three attempts refer to Dany instead?

[tugela]

47 minutes ago, illinifan said:

Interesting.  How do you think Jon overthrows the Lannisters and why couldn't all three attempts refer to Dany instead?

She conquers, she doesn't try to unite.

[illinifan]

5 minutes ago, tugela said:

She conquers, she doesn't try to unite.

But how does Jon actually try to unite the kingdoms?  What is your speculation about this?  Why would he even care?

[tugela]

The legend of Azor Ahai may not be a story from the past, but a story of a greenseer dream from the past, a story of events yet to happen.

We know from Jojens dreams, greenseer dreams are not literal previews of things to happen, they metaphorical previews. So they need to interpreted as symbolism rather than as factual events.

[tugela]

12 minutes ago, illinifan said:

But how does Jon actually try to unite the kingdoms?  What is your speculation about this?  Why would he even care?

We already know that he tried to unify the wildlings with the nights watch, and it failed.

If he is to fight the white walkers he will need help. So the next step is to try to unify Westeros to fight them. In order to do that he will have to get rid of the Lannisters, who currently hold power in the south. The second sword he will try to forge is symbolic of unifying  the great houses to overthrow Tommen/Cersei. They will do this, but then the houses will squabble over who should be the next king/queen, and they will all go off as separate states. The squabbling will be the second sword shattering.

After that Daenerys arrives on the scene, and conquers all. She comes north to deal with Jon, they fight for a while, but he wins her over and convinces her that they need to be united. Gets married maybe (the "sword" plunged into her is you know what, lol). This is Lightbringer being forged. Then together they march off to battle the White Walkers (who, according to one theory I have, are being lead by corrupted Rhaegar).

So they have to kill their father, like Luke Skywalker killed Darth Vader (Imagine the Night King whispering "Jon, I am your father" as he lays dieing). That will be the bittersweet moment Martin was talking about for the end.

Dragonglass are like lightsabres

[boodofmyblood]

34 minutes ago, tugela said:

We already know that he tried to unify the wildlings with the nights watch, and it failed.

If he is to fight the white walkers he will need help. So the next step is to try to unify Westeros to fight them. In order to do that he will have to get rid of the Lannisters, who currently hold power in the south. The second sword he will try to forge is symbolic of unifying  the great houses to overthrow Tommen/Cersei. They will do this, but then the houses will squabble over who should be the next king/queen, and they will all go off as separate states. The squabbling will be the second sword shattering.

After that Daenerys arrives on the scene, and conquers all. She comes north to deal with Jon, they fight for a while, but he wins her over and convinces her that they need to be united. Gets married maybe (the "sword" plunged into her is you know what, lol). This is Lightbringer being forged. Then together they march off to battle the White Walkers (who, according to one theory I have, are being lead by corrupted Rhaegar).

So they have to kill their father, like Luke Skywalker killed Darth Vader (Imagine the Night King whispering "Jon, I am your father" as he lays dieing). That will be the bittersweet moment Martin was talking about for the end.

Great spec. The Rhaegar twist, lol..now that would be pretty heart wrenching. I can't wait to see who they cast as Rhaegar on the show (if they do but I'm assuming they will).

[Chib]

14 minutes ago, tugela said:

We already know that he tried to unify the wildlings with the nights watch, and it failed.

If he is to fight the white walkers he will need help. So the next step is to try to unify Westeros to fight them. In order to do that he will have to get rid of the Lannisters, who currently hold power in the south. The second sword he will try to forge is symbolic of unifying  the great houses to overthrow Tommen/Cersei. They will do this, but then the houses will squabble over who should be the next king/queen, and they will all go off as separate states. The squabbling will be the second sword shattering.

After that Daenerys arrives on the scene, and conquers all. She comes north to deal with Jon, they fight for a while, but he wins her over and convinces her that they need to be united. Gets married maybe (the "sword" plunged into her is you know what, lol). This is Lightbringer being forged. Then together they march off to battle the White Walkers (who, according to one theory I have, are being lead by corrupted Rhaegar).

So they have to kill their father, like Luke Skywalker killed Darth Vader (Imagine the Night King whispering "Jon, I am your father" as he lays dieing). That will be the bittersweet moment Martin was talking about for the end.

Dragonglass are like lightsabres

 

LMAO I am IN for the Luke Skywalker parallel.

[Slaysman]

I do not think it will be Littlefinger giving the reveal. If what people are basing this on is the look he gave Sansa after she said Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna, and that he called Jon a motherless bastard born in the south then you are reaching.

From the books and the show the only one who had any antagonism towards Rhaegar was Robert Baratheon. Everyone else spoke highly of Rhaegar. I think the look Littlefinger gives Sansa is "Oh you actually believe the propaganda as well?". The Lyanna and Rhaegar situation was the pebble that started the avalanche that led to Robert's Rebellion. 

The motherless bastard born in the south line. That is common knowledge. Ned never hid that fact. So whatever dots you think Littlefinger can use to connect are imaginary at best and wishful moronic thinking at worst. Jon looks like a Stark, not a Targaryan. 

As for finding an heirloom of sorts in the crypts? Who on impulse decides to suddenly vandalize, desecrate and rob the graves of relatives (outside of a D&D campaign when you just have to get the ancestral +5 sword of ass kicking)? If anything is in the crypt I suspect it is a document at the base of Ned's crypt hidden behind a loose stone. Said document will have the seals of Jon Arryn, Ned Stark and Howland Reed and explain Jon's heritage. I do think Jon Arryn knew about Jon Snow, why else would you name your bastard after a man who was like a second father to you instead of one of your legitimate children?

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

Why does everyone assume LF knows about R+L=J? He was bed ridden during RR's after getting into a duel with Brandon Stark. Sorry folks but despite popular belief Baelish does not know everything.

Also to the "motherless bastard born in the south" comment LF makes. EVERYONE KNOWS JON WAS BORN IN THE SOUTH. Everybody assumes Ned had Jon with a lady in the south (Ashara Dayne, etc) during Robert's Rebellion so you are stretching if you are saying that line is complete confirmation that he knows.

[Tywin Tytosson]

On 9/29/2016 at 3:32 PM, Slaysman said:

 

The motherless bastard born in the south line. That is common knowledge. Ned never hid that fact. So whatever dots you think Littlefinger can use to connect are imaginary at best and wishful moronic thinking at worst. Jon looks like a Stark, not a Targaryan. 

Jon's only Targ feature to my recollection (of the books) is his purple eyes.   Otherwise, he does seem to resemble his mother and the Starks.

Quote

As for finding an heirloom of sorts in the crypts? Who on impulse decides to suddenly vandalize, desecrate and rob the graves of relatives (outside of a D&D campaign when you just have to get the ancestral +5 sword of ass kicking)? If anything is in the crypt I suspect it is a document at the base of Ned's crypt hidden behind a loose stone. Said document will have the seals of Jon Arryn, Ned Stark and Howland Reed and explain Jon's heritage. I do think Jon Arryn knew about Jon Snow, why else would you name your bastard after a man who was like a second father to you instead of one of your legitimate children?

I doubt this.  The less who know, the better.

I take 'Jon' as the Westerosi form of a Valyrian name such as 'Aegon'.  Or something Ned had to extemporize on the fly, and came up with a similar sounding name.  Or Ned could even have just picked some older Stark name.  There have been  Jon Starks in the past who did some famous/remembered things.

As far as a document ... I doubt this as well.  For similar reasons.  A Maester would probably have to had written it.  And it would be a quite damaging piece of evidence to leave lying around unsecured and unprotected.

[[Deleted]]

On 12/14/2016 at 1:26 AM, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

Why does everyone assume LF knows about R+L=J? He was bed ridden during RR's after getting into a duel with Brandon Stark. Sorry folks but despite popular belief Baelish does not know everything.

Also to the "motherless bastard born in the south" comment LF makes. EVERYONE KNOWS JON WAS BORN IN THE SOUTH. Everybody assumes Ned had Jon with a lady in the south (Ashara Dayne, etc) during Robert's Rebellion so you are stretching if you are saying that line is complete confirmation that he knows.

The whole "LF knows" thing comes from the facial expressions he makes while visiting Lyanna's tomb with Sansa. Sansa says something about Rhaegar kidnapping and raping Lyanna, and if you watch LF, he kind of grimaces, and the next time he looks at Sansa, he has a kind of "Yeah.... You got it all wrong." kind of look on his face.

He knows. And if he dies this season, I think there's a good chance he will tell Sansa before he dies, possibly to plead for his life. Sansa already knows sexual relations happened between the two, so it's not a stretch to think a baby would come out of it. If LF can prove it was consensual, or that they were married, and then tell her that Jon is not Ned's bastard, it might have huge implications for whatever game Sansa is playing in the North.

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

17 hours ago, Aegonzo The Great said:

The whole "LF knows" thing comes from the facial expressions he makes while visiting Lyanna's tomb with Sansa. Sansa says something about Rhaegar kidnapping and raping Lyanna, and if you watch LF, he kind of grimaces, and the next time he looks at Sansa, he has a kind of "Yeah.... You got it all wrong." kind of look on his face.

He knows. And if he dies this season, I think there's a good chance he will tell Sansa before he dies, possibly to plead for his life. Sansa already knows sexual relations happened between the two, so it's not a stretch to think a baby would come out of it. If LF can prove it was consensual, or that they were married, and then tell her that Jon is not Ned's bastard, it might have huge implications for whatever game Sansa is playing in the North.

He might not believe Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, but that does not mean he makes this incredibly out of nowhere assumption that Jon is their son. Jon looks completely like Ned's son. Nobody could make that assumption unless they were there and saw Lyanna give birth to Jon. Baelish most likely wants to continue to believe that Jon is Ned's because he thinks the worst of the Starks and wants to believe that Ned dishonored Catelyn. Not even Varys knows about R+L=J because he was also too busy to notice during RRs and he was Aerys' spymaster. Baelish and Varys will both have major face palm moments the moment they realize it. It'll be funny that Ned Stark, the most honorable man in the Seven Kingdoms, fooled everyone.

I still believe they need to introduce Howland Reed present day because was a good friend of Ned's and was actually there when Jon was born and could lend the most credibility. This is how I believe it will happen in the books and they should go that route in the show. Ain't nobody gonna listen to some little cripple coming from north of the wall saying "Jon is a Targaryen!" and if they do this show's writing has hit toilet levels of bad. Bran's vision of the TOJ was for the audience, and Howland Reed should be who reveals it to Jon. Or Bran tells Jon, Jon doesn't believe him, then Howland Reed shows up and confirms it for him or vice versa.

[[Deleted]]

2 hours ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

He might not believe Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, but that does not mean he makes this incredibly out of nowhere assumption that Jon is their son. Jon looks completely like Ned's son. Nobody could make that assumption unless they were there and saw Lyanna give birth to Jon. Baelish most likely wants to continue to believe that Jon is Ned's because he thinks the worst of the Starks and wants to believe that Ned dishonored Catelyn. Not even Varys knows about R+L=J because he was also too busy to notice during RRs and he was Aerys' spymaster. Baelish and Varys will both have major face palm moments the moment they realize it. It'll be funny that Ned Stark, the most honorable man in the Seven Kingdoms, fooled everyone.

I still believe they need to introduce Howland Reed present day because was a good friend of Ned's and was actually there when Jon was born and could lend the most credibility. This is how I believe it will happen in the books and they should go that route in the show. Ain't nobody gonna listen to some little cripple coming from north of the wall saying "Jon is a Targaryen!" and if they do this show's writing has hit toilet levels of bad. Bran's vision of the TOJ was for the audience, and Howland Reed should be who reveals it to Jon. Or Bran tells Jon, Jon doesn't believe him, then Howland Reed shows up and confirms it for him or vice versa.

These are all fair points. I will say this, LF definitely knows Lyanna and Rhaegar were consensual in their relations, he may even know they were married. You're probably right that he might not know about Jon's birth, or even that Lyanna was pregnant, since the whole point of the Tower of Joy was to give Lyanna a safe place to give birth as well as to keep prying eyes away. However, being that he does know about Lyanna and Rhaegar's mutual feelings, he may have pieced things together on his own. It remains to be seen.

I do 100% agree that Howland Reed needs to show up. GRRM said he will appear in the books. They have introduced Jojen and Meera on the TV show, so it wouldn't be a stretch for their dad to pop up and say stuff. But of course, who's going to believe him? How can he prove it? Unless....He has Dawn, proving that he was at the Tower of Joy? I know in the books Ned returned it to Starfall, but in the TV show, we don't know that he did this.

I dunno. Someone is going to confirm it, probably Bran, possibly Sam, LF might chime in with what he knows, and if Howland Reed shows up with Dawn, then it would seem like way too much of a coincidence. The final key might be something down in the crypts of Winterfell. For example, has anyone actually read what it says on Lyanna's tomb? What if it says something like "Here lies Lyanna Stark/Targaryen, wife of Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, mother of Aegon Targaryen (which is supposed to be Jon's real name)".... Or something? I can't say for sure, but I'm pretty sure it will be a confluence of events which confirm Jon's parentage.

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

On 12/17/2016 at 1:31 PM, Aegonzo The Great said:

These are all fair points. I will say this, LF definitely knows Lyanna and Rhaegar were consensual in their relations, he may even know they were married. You're probably right that he might not know about Jon's birth, or even that Lyanna was pregnant, since the whole point of the Tower of Joy was to give Lyanna a safe place to give birth as well as to keep prying eyes away. However, being that he does know about Lyanna and Rhaegar's mutual feelings, he may have pieced things together on his own. It remains to be seen.

I do 100% agree that Howland Reed needs to show up. GRRM said he will appear in the books. They have introduced Jojen and Meera on the TV show, so it wouldn't be a stretch for their dad to pop up and say stuff. But of course, who's going to believe him? How can he prove it? Unless....He has Dawn, proving that he was at the Tower of Joy? I know in the books Ned returned it to Starfall, but in the TV show, we don't know that he did this.

I dunno. Someone is going to confirm it, probably Bran, possibly Sam, LF might chime in with what he knows, and if Howland Reed shows up with Dawn, then it would seem like way too much of a coincidence. The final key might be something down in the crypts of Winterfell. For example, has anyone actually read what it says on Lyanna's tomb? What if it says something like "Here lies Lyanna Stark/Targaryen, wife of Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, mother of Aegon Targaryen (which is supposed to be Jon's real name)".... Or something? I can't say for sure, but I'm pretty sure it will be a confluence of events which confirm Jon's parentage.

Baelish may have his suspicions but that's probably as far as it goes, and to your point of Dawn, that'd be a nice reveal. I also feel like they have to introduce Howland in the show, why else point him out to the audience during the flashback sequence? When it comes to Jon's name though, they'll probably never reveal that in the show because the casual audience has known Jon as Jon the entire series and it may confuse some of them, but in the books this may be revealed along with the fact that he is a Targaryen. I doubt Ned would have Stark-Targaryen engraved on Lyanna's tomb, Robert most likely would of seen it upon visiting Lyanna's tomb at the beginning of the story.

[[Deleted]]

On 12/19/2016 at 10:15 AM, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

I doubt Ned would have Stark-Targaryen engraved on Lyanna's tomb, Robert most likely would of seen it upon visiting Lyanna's tomb at the beginning of the story.

The interesting thing about that is that I don't know if there's anything carved on the statues at all. I've just begun rewatching the series, and the thing I noticed is that the dead don't seem to be buried under the statues, rather there seems to be a large sarcophagus directly behind them. At least in Lyanna's case, there's definitely some large concrete box directly behind her statue.

Now, here's an interesting idea: What if, in one of Bran's flashbacks, he finds out that Lyanna's tomb doesn't actually have her body? What if Ned secretly had her buried with Rhaegar's ashes (since he was supposedly cremated) but had the tomb built for such a time as when he could reveal that the Targaryens and Starks finally cemented the Pact of Ice and Fire that had been made centuries before by Cregan Stark during the Dance of Dragons? Obviously Ned couldn't reveal this now, because of Robert's hatred of the Targaryens. But what if there's something in the tomb that belongs to the Targaryens? Rhaegar's armor (which Jon will wear)? Dark Sister? (It would be interesting if Sansa finds it first and wields it against Jon.)  Rhaegar's ashes themselves, along with Lyanna's bones?

I do truly believe there is something very important in the crypts, probably at Lyanna's statue. It's been mentioned far too many times and too much effort was made to show it several times for D&D to not be building up to a kind of "Gotcha!" moment, a kind of "hidden in plain sight" thing. The crypts themselves must be important because they keep mentioning them/going in them. If they weren't important, D&D could have just not bothered including them in the story at all. I believe they have been shown at least once in every season of the show, and people always find ways to mention them. Even after the Battle Of The Bastards, Jon makes a point of saying "I'm going to bury him (Rickon) in the crypts next to father."  This would be even more of a twist if it turns out that Rhaegar's ashes ARE in the tomb, meaning Jon IS buring Rickon next to "father", his own as well as RIckon's.

[dbunting]

On ‎12‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 11:34 AM, Aegonzo The Great said:

The interesting thing about that is that I don't know if there's anything carved on the statues at all. I've just begun rewatching the series, and the thing I noticed is that the dead don't seem to be buried under the statues, rather there seems to be a large sarcophagus directly behind them. At least in Lyanna's case, there's definitely some large concrete box directly behind her statue.

Yeah, IIRC Rickon was hiding in an open area reserved for Ned's body with Shaggydog, so under a statue doesn't make sense.

On ‎12‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 11:34 AM, Aegonzo The Great said:

Now, here's an interesting idea: What if, in one of Bran's flashbacks, he finds out that Lyanna's tomb doesn't actually have her body? What if Ned secretly had her buried with Rhaegar's ashes (since he was supposedly cremated) but had the tomb built for such a time as when he could reveal that the Targaryens and Starks finally cemented the Pact of Ice and Fire that had been made centuries before by Cregan Stark during the Dance of Dragons? Obviously Ned couldn't reveal this now, because of Robert's hatred of the Targaryens. But what if there's something in the tomb that belongs to the Targaryens? Rhaegar's armor (which Jon will wear)? Dark Sister? (It would be interesting if Sansa finds it first and wields it against Jon.)  Rhaegar's ashes themselves, along with Lyanna's bones?

You are making assumptions that Ned planned to reveal this secret. I would say he planned for it to never come out. It wasn't until Jon made the choice to take the black that Ned ever even agreed to talk about Lyanna to him. By the time they saw each other again Jon would have been a member of the NW for years and would have sworn off family so Jon knowing would mean nothing to anyone, and likely Ned would ask Jon to not tell anyone.

On ‎12‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 11:34 AM, Aegonzo The Great said:

I do truly believe there is something very important in the crypts, probably at Lyanna's statue. It's been mentioned far too many times and too much effort was made to show it several times for D&D to not be building up to a kind of "Gotcha!" moment, a kind of "hidden in plain sight" thing. The crypts themselves must be important because they keep mentioning them/going in them. If they weren't important, D&D could have just not bothered including them in the story at all. I believe they have been shown at least once in every season of the show, and people always find ways to mention them. Even after the Battle Of The Bastards, Jon makes a point of saying "I'm going to bury him (Rickon) in the crypts next to father."  This would be even more of a twist if it turns out that Rhaegar's ashes ARE in the tomb, meaning Jon IS buring Rickon next to "father", his own as well as RIckon's.

As to what could be in the tomb, who knows. If it's Rheagars ashes, how the hell did Ned get them and how could you prove a pile of ashes was anything? For it to mean something, the item found has to be clearly Rheagar and preferably something love/marriage related.

[Lady Sansa's Direwolf]

On 12/15/2016 at 1:07 AM, Thror Baratheon said:

Jon's only Targ feature to my recollection (of the books) is his purple eyes.   Otherwise, he does seem to resemble his mother and the Starks.

Jon doesn't have purple eyes, He has grey eyes, so dark as ti appear black, He has Stark eyes.

[chris999]

I think the show pretty much confirmed it.

[MtnLion]

On ‎2‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 9:15 PM, Lady Sansa's Direwolf said:

Jon doesn't have purple eyes, He has grey eyes, so dark as ti appear black, He has Stark eyes.

Or can be mistaken for Stark eyes.  Aegon V's eyes were so deep a dark purple as to appear to be black. Rhaegar, himself, had "dark indigo" eyes.