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Whats the point of the dire wolves?


Ben GT

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On the show, I would have preferred they used real dogs with a wolfish look than the cgi direwolves so we could have actually seen them more. Maybe then the other Starks beside Bran would have kept their ability to warg. Sure, they wouldn't be the big imposing animals they are in the books, but they'd be there.

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9 hours ago, of man and wolf said:

How many times did GreyWind go into battles with Robb in the books? They didnt have archers and swords etc etc...? GreyWind had plenty of kills.

True, he went to battle. I don't recall how that worked, gotta read it again. I guess then just cut him because of CGI. But I still wouldn't have taken either of them to battle though.

3 hours ago, Jon Snow Bengal said:

That was before Direwolves were put on the "too hard" list for the show.

I really fail to see how Direwolves are 'hard'. There's not even that much CGI involved because it's not like they are made from scratch, they can just make the dogs bigger. Brienne is made to look bigger than she is so why can't they do this with animals? Dogs are soooo easy to train. Cats can be trained as well and were used successfully in Harry Potter. I don't see what the issue is unless it's personal. Maybe they're allergic?

 

Huh? Have you seen the actress? She's pretty tall herself...

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4 hours ago, The Hound 25 said:

It was a real dog. The breed is called cane corso. Another name is italian mastiff. Google it they're actually magnificent dogs. I know because i always wanted one and got really excited when i  saw it lol 

The scene where the dog lunged at Ramsay's face was CG, but you are 100% right, those were Italian mastiffs (what I've always known them as) and they are truly brilliant animals.

I've never actually been around a cane corso, but I used to play with my sister's mastiff all the time. He basically acted like a massive puppy, but he was huge and incredibly strong. I'm no weakling, but that dog could yank me clean off my feet when we were playing tug of war. If the cane corso is about the same size, I would be absolutely terrified of being in a cage with a hungry one, which is what I hoped Ramsay was feeling.

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3 hours ago, caravaggio said:

On the show, I would have preferred they used real dogs with a wolfish look than the cgi direwolves so we could have actually seen them more. Maybe then the other Starks beside Bran would have kept their ability to warg. Sure, they wouldn't be the big imposing animals they are in the books, but they'd be there.

Agreed.

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6 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

I think in the books you're correct.

I think the names are significant too, but I can't work all of them out.

Lady = Dying equates to the beginning of Sansa's transformation from a prim and proper lady to a player.

Summer = Dying equates to the beginning of Winter.

Ghost = Jon's avatar.  Dying will equate to Jon's resurrection.

Shaggydog = Probably equates to either Rickon and/or all the Direwolves as not being that important to the ultimate story after all.

Nymeria = Not sure on this one yet.

Greywind = Not sure on this one either.  But words are wind comes up a lot in the story so maybe it relates to Robb going back on is marriage pact.  Words are wind is also interesting being lined up with the Winds of Winter.

 

 

I agree with you on most of this. Ghost, I think currently symbolizes Jon. We don't really know if Jon can age. If not, it's hard to imagine him surviving the story because even as the true king of Westeros, it's hard to imagine him ruling as an immortal

I like your idea about all of the wolves being Shaggydogs, but I don't think that we can say that simply because the fact that all of the wolves so far have represented the storylines of the Starks.

As for Greywind, I always imagined this name symbolized Robb himself with regard to how good Robb was on the battlefield. Look how long it takes the Lannisters to gain ground in the river lands and Robb comes in in basically one fell sweep and takes them out left and right. "Grey" symbolizes the colors of House Stark, "Wind" symbolizes how fast Robb moved through Westeros taking territory, and like the wind, he left just as fast as he came.

Nymeria, I feel the same way, we do know that she is named after a warrior conqueror revered to the point of worship as a goddess, and that she came from Essos to Westeros. I think we see the parrallels of Arya's journey as a warrior from Essos back to Westeros, but she is not a queen, nor is she revered/worshiped. In fact she is the opposite because she has spent the entire story deliberately hiding in the shadows.  So, is Arya destined to become a ruler? I'd like it, but I just don't see how that works, without a prologue to the story that skips a significant amount of time. Also, do we know the fate of Nymeria?

3 hours ago, Lady Lyanna Mormont said:

True, he went to battle. I don't recall how that worked, gotta read it again. I guess then just cut him because of CGI. But I still wouldn't have taken either of them to battle though.

Huh? Have you seen the actress? She's pretty tall herself...

If I remember correctly, Robb himself very rarely fought on an open battlefield in anything that resembled the Battle of the Bastards. Robb was victorious through basically using gorilla tactics and the terrain to his advantage. He attacked at night when he could (Whispering Woods) and frequently used well placed forces to do the work for him. The Lannisters could not hold the ground because they were constantly pressured and pushed back. Point is, in response to the folks who have commented on whether or not Greywind was in the same type of combat as the BoB, I doubt it. I think that faced with the same environment as Jon, Robb would've kept Greywind at bay as well and vice versa. Jon knew Winterfell, he knew that terrain, and thinks of Ghost as a brother. 

To me, I don't understand why the type of battles within which Robb engaged would require open fields with teams of archers firing at will, so Greywind wouldn't have faced certain death in battle. So, I think it's very believable that Robb would've taken Greywind into every battle as we are told. If we believe Greywind was the size of a horse through this part of the story, and that Robb even rode him from time to time, unless he rushed straight into a charging platoon of heavy Calvary (which is the LAST thing a King would do in battle), why would Greywind be threatened at all in combat? On the contrary, the terror he would invoke in the eyes of the enemy would likely make it easier for him to take down mounted soldiers and horses as he pleased.

On the other hand, Ghost really hasn't been involved in most of Jon's battles. Actually, wasn't it Summer and Shaggydog who helped him escape the Wildlings?

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On 6/21/2016 at 1:32 AM, Ben GT said:

As above, as we go further and further into the series the dire wolves are either dead or getting no screen time at all.

I'm beginning to wonder why have the dire wolves at all? Obviously Bran used to warg into his, but that could have been a wild wolf north of the wall, it didn't have to be a particular dire wolf .

Will Ghost have a major role as the things start to clear up?

Dany's dragons clearly have a point and I always believed the wolves would in a similar way but it's becoming clearer they're useless- besides they are on the Stark sidual. Unless I'm missing something...?

 Reliable indicators of a Stark death or impending Stark death.  We have only two left.  

Ghost was MIA in the last episode.  I think he was secretly prancing outside Winterfell howling to Ramsey's dogs that it almost time to eat some kibbles and bits n bits n bits of Ramsey.

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8 minutes ago, Battle Kitten said:

 Reliable indicators of a Stark death or impending Stark death.  We have only two left.  

Ghost was MIA in the last episode.  I think he was secretly prancing outside Winterfell howling to Ramsey's dogs that it almost time to eat some kibbles and bits n bits n bits of Ramsey.

 

Ghost was sleeping on the field nearby because he's like: "Daddy will be fine!" 

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35 minutes ago, CalvoHobbo said:

Also, do we know the fate of Nymeria?

If I remember correctly, Robb himself very rarely fought on an open battlefield in anything that resembled the Battle of the Bastards. Robb was victorious through basically using gorilla tactics and the terrain to his advantage. He attacked at night when he could (Whispering Woods) and frequently used well placed forces to do the work for him. The Lannisters could not hold the ground because they were constantly pressured and pushed back. Point is, in response to the folks who have commented on whether or not Greywind was in the same type of combat as the BoB, I doubt it. I think that faced with the same environment as Jon, Robb would've kept Greywind at bay as well and vice versa. Jon knew Winterfell, he knew that terrain, and thinks of Ghost as a brother. 

To me, I don't understand why the type of battles within which Robb engaged would require open fields with teams of archers firing at will, so Greywind wouldn't have faced certain death in battle. So, I think it's very believable that Robb would've taken Greywind into every battle as we are told. If we believe Greywind was the size of a horse through this part of the story, and that Robb even rode him from time to time, unless he rushed straight into a charging platoon of heavy Calvary (which is the LAST thing a King would do in battle), why would Greywind be threatened at all in combat? On the contrary, the terror he would invoke in the eyes of the enemy would likely make it easier for him to take down mounted soldiers and horses as he pleased.

On the other hand, Ghost really hasn't been involved in most of Jon's battles. Actually, wasn't it Summer and Shaggydog who helped him escape the Wildlings?

At least on the books, she's around Riverlands with her pack. Arya took Catelyn out of the water while warging her. I'd say she's at the same place on the show but I don't know if they'll address her.

You're probably right, I thought that might be a reason why Greywind was with Robb whereas Ghost wasn't in battle, but since I don't recall the details, I refrained from comment even further, but thanks for the info!
It was just Summer. By that time, Bran and Rickon had gone their separate ways.

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On 6/21/2016 at 10:30 AM, Lord Davos Seaworth said:

I have an odd theory that the direwolves foreshadow which Starks will survive the Long Night - so at this point, just Jon and Arya. If you notice so far, all the Direwolves have perished before their owners.  If they also foreshadow cause of death maybe Sansa gets executed for some reason and Bran is killed by the Others? I know it's a long shot but as the OP states I really can't see the purpose of the direwolves otherwise - I really can't buy the CGI argument, if they will really wanted to save money/time they could have easily just had the direwolves MIA until important scenes.

I doubt the fate of the dire wolves and the respective Stark children is as cut and paste. I do not see the reason plot wise for Bran or Sansa to die, especially in such manners. I think the loss of Lady for Sansa means that Sansa has to stop being a lady by nature to survive, and also meant the end of her naive fantasies. The loss of Summer I think means the end of summer literally and figuratively for Bran and for everyone. These are just some of my speculations though, and I do love Bran and Sansa and do not want them to die.

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15 hours ago, Aegonzo The Great said:

The scene where the dog lunged at Ramsay's face was CG, but you are 100% right, those were Italian mastiffs (what I've always known them as) and they are truly brilliant animals.

I've never actually been around a cane corso, but I used to play with my sister's mastiff all the time. He basically acted like a massive puppy, but he was huge and incredibly strong. I'm no weakling, but that dog could yank me clean off my feet when we were playing tug of war. If the cane corso is about the same size, I would be absolutely terrified of being in a cage with a hungry one, which is what I hoped Ramsay was feeling.

Apparently a cane corso is as big as any mastiff but much more athletic and stronger. So yeah, I would also be terrified to be in a cage with one lol They say if you raise them properly they're not aggressive... but we can all guess how Ramsay raised his dogs

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On June 21, 2016 at 5:50 AM, GeorgeIAF said:

Yep, they should have looked like the wolves used by the Orcs in the Warcraft movie, much larger and ferocious.

I guess they decided that the cost of having them onscreen just as companions to the Starks was too much and they decided to be more pragmatic.

And more realistic, less Blizzard™ game cinematic-y... (yes I play. Yes I loved it, because I'm an adult nerd.)

While I did love Warcraft, and can't wait for more (thank you China!), I never, ever want Game of Thrones to look like it in any way. I love my dirty, grimy, armor and horses; I love my CGI-assisted wolves... Seeing the Direwolves from Warcraft would pull me right out of it. People I would giggle. 

They're too different fictional universes. 

And I have no problem not seeing Ghost since the end of ep 2 because Triple Air Squadron Daenerys rocked my damn world.

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Found this earlier today from director Miguel Sapochnik

"[Ghost] was in there in spades originally, but it is also incredibly time consuming and expensive character to bring to life. Ultimately, we had to choose between Wun-Wun and the direwolf, so the dog bit the dust"

 

 

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On 6/22/2016 at 8:53 AM, caravaggio said:

On the show, I would have preferred they used real dogs with a wolfish look than the cgi direwolves so we could have actually seen them more. Maybe then the other Starks beside Bran would have kept their ability to warg. Sure, they wouldn't be the big imposing animals they are in the books, but they'd be there.

People would have been upset because they nerf'd the direwolves, but I agree this would have been the better option. Perfect is the enemy of good.

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Lady and Nymeria foreshadow the stark the girls getting separated from the Stark pack. I expect Lady's death symbolized Sansa no longer being a Stark. I believe the original plan for Sansa was to fully betray the Starks. But GRRM changed it, but she was still separated from her Stark identity. Nymeria and Arya are both wondering the world without their pack.

Even Summer dying could symbolize Bran losing part of himself as he's become the last greenseer. I believe there will be a bigger plot on in the books about Bran losing his humanity.

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12 minutes ago, Desert Fox said:

Lady and Nymeria foreshadow the stark the girls getting separated from the Stark pack. I expect Lady's death symbolized Sansa no longer being a Stark. I believe the original plan for Sansa was to fully betray the Starks. But GRRM changed it, but she was still separated from her Stark identity. Nymeria and Arya are both wondering the world without their pack.

Even Summer dying could symbolize Bran losing part of himself as he's become the last greenseer. I believe there will be a bigger plot on in the books about Bran losing his humanity.

How do you know grrm changed it? The story isn't over yet. Sansa is over there learning from LF - the person responsible for so much of House Stark's downfall. In the show she doesn't trust Jon and has hid vital information from him. It's possible in the finale she will leave with LF again. It's a mess. 

What S6 has confirmed is that Arya is going home. Seems a perfect time to find her direwolf like she has found her name again. Nymeria has always been around other wolves and has thrived. She is a natural leader and is an Alpha female. - Qualities that Arya may grow into as well. In the books, Nymeria looks to be moving North as well. She has yearned to return home too - a feeling shared with Arya. 

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3 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

How do you know grrm changed it? The story isn't over yet. Sansa is over there learning from LF - the person responsible for so much of House Stark's downfall. In the show she doesn't trust Jon and has hid vital information from him. It's possible in the finale she will leave with LF again. It's a mess. 

What S6 has confirmed is that Arya is going home. Seems a perfect time to find her direwolf like she has found her name again. Nymeria has always been around other wolves and has thrived. She is a natural leader and is an Alpha female. - Qualities that Arya may grow into as well. In the books, Nymeria looks to be moving North as well. She has yearned to return home too - a feeling shared with Arya. 

You are right, Sansa can still completely betray the Starks. But if I recall correctly the very early version of the plot outline GRRM came up with had Sansa actually marrying Joffery and having kids, etc. Choosing to be Queen and an a Lannister over her family. GRRM toned it down and had her unknowingly betray her family and get her father killed.

I think you are right that Ayra and Nymeria will meet up again.

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23 hours ago, CalvoHobbo said:

Nymeria, I feel the same way, we do know that she is named after a warrior conqueror revered to the point of worship as a goddess, and that she came from Essos to Westeros. I think we see the parrallels of Arya's journey as a warrior from Essos back to Westeros, but she is not a queen, nor is she revered/worshiped. In fact she is the opposite because she has spent the entire story deliberately hiding in the shadows.  So, is Arya destined to become a ruler? I'd like it, but I just don't see how that works, without a prologue to the story that skips a significant amount of time. Also, do we know the fate of Nymeria?

Great points. 

You mean an epilogue? grrm confirmed he will be writing one for A Dream of Spring.

I think it's no surprise that the 3 Starks who have joined an Order or undergone training - are also the most connected to their wolves and have a strong mystical/Stark nature. Summer isn't completely gone either, he will come back as a wight just like other dead animals the NK has raised. So that might suggest (with Bran already marked) he might turn into something else at some point in the future? 

I like the fact that Arya names a ship after Nymeria as well, she has crossed the narrow sea and will return to Westeros. She already refers to Robb's bannermen as "her pack" and she has administered Northern Justice on a Night's Watch deserter. grrm pointed out that she sat with Ned and loved to watch him be Lord of Winterfell and remembered things he told Robb & Jon that has stuck with her:

 

 I should kill them myself. Whenever her father had condemned a man to death, he did the deed himself with Ice, his greatsword. “If you would take a man’s life, you owe it to him to look him in the face and hear his last words,” she’d heard him tell Robb and Jon once. Arya, ACoK

----

“You are Arya of Winterfell, daughter of the north. You told me you could be strong. You have the wolf blood in you.”

“The wolf blood.” Arya remembered now. “I’ll be as strong as Robb. I said I would.” She took a deep breath, then lifted the broomstick in both hands and brought it down across her knee. It broke with a loud crack, and she threw the pieces aside. I am a direwolf, and done with wooden teeth.

----

          “Arya, sit down. I need to try and explain some things to you.”

She perched anxiously on the edge of her bed. “You are too young to be burdened with all my cares,” he told her, “but you are also a Stark of Winterfell. You know our words.”

“Winter is coming, “ Arya whispered.

“The hard cruel times,” her father said. “We tasted them on the Trident, child, and when Bran fell. You were born in the long summer, sweet one, you’ve never known anything else, but now the winter is truly coming. Remember the sigil of our House, Arya.”

“The direwolf,” she said, thinking of Nymeria. She hugged her knees against her chest, suddenly afraid.

Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm.“Arya and Ned, AGoT

---

Her father used to say that a lord needed to eat with his men, if he hoped to keep them. “Know the men who follow you,” she heard him tell Robb once, “and let them know you. Don’t ask your men to die for a stranger.” ... Arya had loved nothing better than to sit at her father’s table and listen to them talk. She had loved listening to the men on the benches too; to freeriders tough as leather, courtly knights and bold young squires, grizzled old men-at-arms. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Desert Fox said:

You are right, Sansa can still completely betray the Starks. But if I recall correctly the very early version of the plot outline GRRM came up with had Sansa actually marrying Joffery and having kids, etc. Choosing to be Queen and an a Lannister over her family. GRRM toned it down and had her unknowingly betray her family and get her father killed.

I think you are right that Ayra and Nymeria will meet up again.

Yup you are right about the outline. I think grrm has re-worked it and finessed the different plots. 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 21/06/2016 at 3:27 PM, CalvoHobbo said:

Because the wolves symbolize everything about the Stark children, each wolf is customized to each child. It's part of the fantasy aspect of the series. If you can't tell from my avatar, it's one of my favorite aspects of the story. Shaggydog I suppose I get, if that's what happens in the books too, but Summer's death just seemed completely unnecessary to me.

Why do you think that Summer's death was unnecessary? Hodor, the children of the forest, and Summer died all to protect Bran... Ok Summer didn't do so much and died very soon, but I reckon there is another reason why he had to die. He's called 'Summer'. A white reaven was sent throughout the realm to announce that the Summer was officially finished... WINTER IS HERE... SO I presume, SUMMER had to die...

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