Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Rumy Stark

Jon's Will To Live

Recommended Posts

I just read an article where the director of the ep said so much of the end of the episode (particularly the Ramsay takedown??) was about Jon's renewed will to live which he gained during the battle.

After rewatching with that in mind I can kind of see it: Ramsay gets in his head but he's kind of on a suicide mission anyway (doesn't really excuse him abandoning his army and his plan but I don't think we're supposed to excuse that), and it also explains the really long trampling/suffocating shot and the moment when he resurfaces for air. It's an interesting story they've built, from him not really being with it post-resurrection to him asking Mel not to bring him back to the moment when he almost dies and realizes he doesn't want to. It makes me at least a little excited to see what he gets up to now assuming he's snapped out of it, but I want to know what other people think.

Did you see this episode as Jon's metaphorical battle to regain the will to live? Why, if there was nothing after death as he claimed in Ep 3, was he still so averse to life? Is this a throwback to Mel's claim that the only hell is the world they live in? I'm still not sure what I think about all this...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I still need to re-watch but that makes the whole getting trampled part a little better to understand. It figured since they were going for a mix of old time fighting and the American Civil War they were just trying to depict how unorganized and how many ways someone could literally die.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't think about it while I was watching no but looking back yes i believe you're right. I'm glad he's wanting to live again too

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He was definitely suicidal up until that trampling. He didn't care about his life but in his rage he wanted to take down as many as he could before he went down. Like Miguel said, he reconnected with life after hitting rock bottom by nearly suffocating under a pile of dead/dying men.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For Jon, it was about rescuing Rickon more so than Taking Back Winterfell (holding Winterfell is just the means to the end of unifying The North and ensuring the safety of what remains of his family).  So with Rickon suddenly dead, what's the point?  Fuck it, blaze of glory, etc.  Sansa was already writing Rickon off as a goner, but Jon, like Robb, was motivated by rescuing his siblings and wasn't going to give up on them until he literally saw the body.

But then there's still Sansa to fight for (who, after all, told him she would not let Ramsay take her alive) too, and the whole Everybody Will Die If He Doesn't Get The North United thing breathing down on Westeros with its icy breath.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Rumy Stark said:

 

Did you see this episode as Jon's metaphorical battle to regain the will to live? Why, if there was nothing after death as he claimed in Ep 3, was he still so averse to life? Is this a throwback to Mel's claim that the only hell is the world they live in? I'm still not sure what I think about all this...

I initially thought this as well - that the moment Jon fights out of the crowd, is him rediscovering his vitality & will to live. 

However, the showrunners and even Kit himself were very clear to say that Jon has lost a large part of himself, and turns into a bit of a monster at the end when he's attacking Ramsey. 

So it's a bit of a contradiction, really. On one hand, you have the Jon Snow we love and recognize realizing his own will to survive, and on the other hand you have a Jon Snow who is so foregone that we don't really know who he is anymore? 

Confusing scene. 

But the parallels between Jon fighting through the bodies to get air, and Dany being lifted about by the folks chanting Meesa, was really on point. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, TickTak7 said:

However, the showrunners and even Kit himself were very clear to say that Jon has lost a large part of himself, and turns into a bit of a monster at the end when he's attacking Ramsey.

I know they said this but I still don't see it. Like he was beating Ramsey, a man who rapes, murders, tortures, and even when defeat is inevitable he wouldn't surrender. Personally felt like he did exactly what was needed in that situation and that was to do it for himself and to show the men.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have that same feeling. Before the battle Jon already thought he wouldn't come out alive. Hence the talk with Mel: "If I die don't bring me back."

His sole motivation was just to save Rickon, and protect Sansa. Jon is still the Jon we know, who values his family the most. But there was something not there, the will to live. He was still confused why he was brought back. He failed as Commander of the NW. He was betrayed by people he called family (NW was considered a family). Thus he was lost. When Rickon was shot down, Jon was totally at lost. He was confused, in rage and he didn't have any rational thought left. 

Then when he fought through the pile of bodies for air, he finally felt that he needs to live and to fulfill it the life he was given back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Soccer69 said:

I know they said this but I still don't see it. Like he was beating Ramsey, a man who rapes, murders, tortures, and even when defeat is inevitable he wouldn't surrender. Personally felt like he did exactly what was needed in that situation and that was to do it for himself and to show the men.

Yeah I do agree with you in that regard. I never felt like "OMG JON = MONSTER". 

Instead, I wanted him to stop only so that he / Sansa could do more terrible things to him like maim or flay him or something. 

Their messaging regarding Jon in this episode was very convoluted & messy. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, TickTak7 said:

Their messaging regarding Jon in this episode was very convoluted & messy. 

Lol I agree. The whole battle was like it happened only in his mind. Inception version Jon Snow. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I have felt like Jon was on autopilot since his resurrection. He was distant and flat, and honestly I felt like he was wasting his second chance. 

But when he charged ahead to try to save Rickon, I felt like his fire was reignited. And the look in his eyes when Rickon died ... Not as in Rhaegar/Targaryen fire (if R+L=J, which it almost certainly does and I've never heard Rhaegar described as having a temper) but in the wolf's blood way of the Starks, hot tempered, quick to react, tempestuous in the way that Lyanna and Brandon were said to be. And I celebrated that returning to Jon, even if it caused him to make some poor decisions in battle.

But if Jon felt like he was going to die in this battle, had a death wish or that he didn't deserve his second chance at life, and he chose pre-battle not to be resurrected (which Melisandre completely blew off), he himself chose life when he was being smothered under that pile of bodies! He fought for his life!

I thought in that scene, and more when I rewatched it, how his gasps for breath mirrored his first breaths post resurrection! But this time Jon chose to live! So maybe that was his true resurrection, and now we will see who Jon is?

As for him beating the crap out of Ramsey, I didn't feel like Jon lost some of his humanity at all. War rage and blood fever or simple justification (Ramsay was a complete shit of a person), but not dehumanizing of Jon. But maybe that is a hint from Kit and D & D of things to come.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, St Daga said:
Quote

I have felt like Jon was on autopilot since his resurrection. He was distant and flat, and honestly I felt like he was wasting his second chance. 

But when he charged ahead to try to save Rickon, I felt like his fire was reignited. And the look in his eyes when Rickon died ... Not as in Rhaegar/Targaryen fire (if R+L=J, which it almost certainly does and I've never heard Rhaegar described as having a temper) but in the wolf's blood way of the Starks, hot tempered, quick to react, tempestuous in the way that Lyanna and Brandon were said to be. And I celebrated that returning to Jon, even if it caused him to make some poor decisions in battle.

But if Jon felt like he was going to die in this battle, had a death wish or that he didn't deserve his second chance at life, and he chose pre-battle not to be resurrected (which Melisandre completely blew off), he himself chose life when he was being smothered under that pile of bodies! He fought for his life!

I thought in that scene, and more when I rewatched it, how his gasps for breath mirrored his first breaths post resurrection! But this time Jon chose to live! So maybe that was his true resurrection, and now we will see who Jon is?

As for him beating the crap out of Ramsey, I didn't feel like Jon lost some of his humanity at all. War rage and blood fever or simple justification (Ramsay was a complete shit of a person), but not dehumanizing of Jon. But maybe that is a hint from Kit and D & D of things to come.

Well said!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Mr. Greenhands said:

Well said!

Thanks. I'm pretty passionate about Jon's character, both in the show and the books! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Soccer69 said:

I know they said this but I still don't see it. Like he was beating Ramsey, a man who rapes, murders, tortures, and even when defeat is inevitable he wouldn't surrender. Personally felt like he did exactly what was needed in that situation and that was to do it for himself and to show the men.

You can also say him being all blah this whole season, its because he was being depressed, disconnected and getting over his death.

Then during that trampling moment he rediscovered his will to leave and with it came rage. I think director said that his beating of Ramsey in that almost animalistic state was result of him rediscovering his will to leave, his rage and battle haze.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, St Daga said:
Quote

I have felt like Jon was on autopilot since his resurrection. He was distant and flat, and honestly I felt like he was wasting his second chance. 

But when he charged ahead to try to save Rickon, I felt like his fire was reignited. And the look in his eyes when Rickon died ... Not as in Rhaegar/Targaryen fire (if R+L=J, which it almost certainly does and I've never heard Rhaegar described as having a temper) but in the wolf's blood way of the Starks, hot tempered, quick to react, tempestuous in the way that Lyanna and Brandon were said to be. And I celebrated that returning to Jon, even if it caused him to make some poor decisions in battle.

But if Jon felt like he was going to die in this battle, had a death wish or that he didn't deserve his second chance at life, and he chose pre-battle not to be resurrected (which Melisandre completely blew off), he himself chose life when he was being smothered under that pile of bodies! He fought for his life!

I thought in that scene, and more when I rewatched it, how his gasps for breath mirrored his first breaths post resurrection! But this time Jon chose to live! So maybe that was his true resurrection, and now we will see who Jon is?

As for him beating the crap out of Ramsey, I didn't feel like Jon lost some of his humanity at all. War rage and blood fever or simple justification (Ramsay was a complete shit of a person), but not dehumanizing of Jon. But maybe that is a hint from Kit and D & D of things to come.

I love this! Well put! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Rumy Stark said:

I just read an article where the director of the ep said so much of the end of the episode (particularly the Ramsay takedown??) was about Jon's renewed will to live which he gained during the battle.

After rewatching with that in mind I can kind of see it: Ramsay gets in his head but he's kind of on a suicide mission anyway (doesn't really excuse him abandoning his army and his plan but I don't think we're supposed to excuse that), and it also explains the really long trampling/suffocating shot and the moment when he resurfaces for air. It's an interesting story they've built, from him not really being with it post-resurrection to him asking Mel not to bring him back to the moment when he almost dies and realizes he doesn't want to. It makes me at least a little excited to see what he gets up to now assuming he's snapped out of it, but I want to know what other people think.

Did you see this episode as Jon's metaphorical battle to regain the will to live? Why, if there was nothing after death as he claimed in Ep 3, was he still so averse to life? Is this a throwback to Mel's claim that the only hell is the world they live in? I'm still not sure what I think about all this...

When he pushed his way through the masses of encircled troops, it was like trying to escape the womb, no?

The visual metaphor was there - but what it means is more important. Jon is reborn in blood and chaos? Jon is a destroyer?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

6 hours ago, St Daga said:
Quote

I have felt like Jon was on autopilot since his resurrection. He was distant and flat, and honestly I felt like he was wasting his second chance. 

But when he charged ahead to try to save Rickon, I felt like his fire was reignited. And the look in his eyes when Rickon died ... Not as in Rhaegar/Targaryen fire (if R+L=J, which it almost certainly does and I've never heard Rhaegar described as having a temper) but in the wolf's blood way of the Starks, hot tempered, quick to react, tempestuous in the way that Lyanna and Brandon were said to be. And I celebrated that returning to Jon, even if it caused him to make some poor decisions in battle.

But if Jon felt like he was going to die in this battle, had a death wish or that he didn't deserve his second chance at life, and he chose pre-battle not to be resurrected (which Melisandre completely blew off), he himself chose life when he was being smothered under that pile of bodies! He fought for his life!

I thought in that scene, and more when I rewatched it, how his gasps for breath mirrored his first breaths post resurrection! But this time Jon chose to live! So maybe that was his true resurrection, and now we will see who Jon is?

As for him beating the crap out of Ramsey, I didn't feel like Jon lost some of his humanity at all. War rage and blood fever or simple justification (Ramsay was a complete shit of a person), but not dehumanizing of Jon. But maybe that is a hint from Kit and D & D of things to come.

Agree with this except for - what's wrong with it being a loss of humanity? What is wrong with the idea that Jon has been reborn dark, inhuman or anti-human? I think it's more than maybe a hint of things to come but it is things to come - Jon and Dany will be the destroyers Westeros needs for it's rebirth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Rumy Stark said:

As for him beating the crap out of Ramsey, I didn't feel like Jon lost some of his humanity at all. War rage and blood fever or simple justification (Ramsay was a complete shit of a person), but not dehumanizing of Jon. But maybe that is a hint from Kit and D & D of things to come.

But I cannot say this for Sansa, her laugh end of the episode.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Masha said:

You can also say him being all blah this whole season, its because he was being depressed, disconnected and getting over his death.

Then during that trampling moment he rediscovered his will to leave and with it came rage. I think director said that his beating of Ramsey in that almost animalistic state was result of him rediscovering his will to leave, his rage and battle haze.

 

Agree but they tried to make into something more. They said "Jon lost a part of himself." If anything he discovered a part of him we've been waiting to see. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...