Can/Will Sansa Legitimize Jon?

[Chib]

53 minutes ago, The Hound 25 said:

Benjen gave up all rights to lands and holdings when he joined the Night's Watch. He hasn't died yet so his watch hasn't ended.

 

To be fair he is an undead now, the issue is he can't pass the wall now.

[tugela]

15 hours ago, Iona said:

Oh, c'mon, As I said, tell that to Dany. She was coupled with a dothraki khal, but she's no less the last Targaryen, still the Targ heir to the Iron Throne. Women do not miraculously loose former family identities when married - Catelyn Stark was still viewed very much a Tully in addition to being Lady Stark, Cercei Baratheon is no less a Lannister, etc. If all the male relatives in line to inherit their "home bases" would've kicked the bucket, they would've been ladies of Riverrun and Casterly Rock.

(In the eyes of those who don't know Bran and Arya are still alive,) Sansa is the only surviving Stark, thus the Lady of Winterfell. Unless theories of Sansa's pregnancy *shudder* hold water, House Bolton is no more.

Even all that is irrelevant when discussing kings and queens. Might makes right, as we saw from Robert's usurping of the Iron Throne, Robb was spontaniously "voted" as KitN, Balon one day decided he fancied being a king too and some might even remember poor king Stannis...

Cloak changing symbolizes how a woman is moved from her father's protection under the protection of her new husband. It's not a severing of blood ties.

Do you mean how Lady Dustin ceased to be a Dustin just because her husband died? Kind of funny that she is still Lady Dustin then.

Catelyn may have been a Tulley once, but she became a Stark.

Likewise with Cercei. She does not get to inherit Casterly Rock because she is a Baratheon now. Due to the particular circumstances her family is in, the heir to the title of Lord Lannister is Kevin. He would have been followed by Lancel, but Lancel lost his claim when he made his vows to the faith militant.

The prevailing attitude in Westeros can be seen during Lyanna Mormonts questioning of the petitioners. She points out that Jon is a Snow, and that Sansa is a Bolton/Lannister - the implication is clear: she is not honor bound to support them individually. She goes further than that - when Sansa declares that she will always be a Stark, Lyanna says "if you say so" dismissively, which means that she is not convinced by that argument. But never the less she continues to support house Stark. Not necessarily the two individuals in front of her, since they are not Starks themselves, but the house itself. She does make that distinction.

Now, going forward, things can change. A lost Stark may show up. Rickon is dead, but Bran and Arya are not. Plus, Jon might get legitimized through some extraordinary measure. Plus there are almost certainly other Starks floating around who are further removed from the main line, such as cousins, second cousins etc. In the end, someone will step up to claim the title.

[tugela]

17 hours ago, SevasTra82 said:

Pretty much this.

The North will be it's own, independent Kingdom with its own ideals, laws, and beliefs.  The whole "so-and-so needs to be legitimized" is a 7 Kingdoms thing.  With the North independent...the can pretty much do whatever they want.

Except that the north no longer has an army. They are pretty much at the mercy of the Vale and the Lannisters. Hell, even the Freys could invade and there would be no one to stop them. The armies they did have were effectively wiped out at the second battle of Winterfell.

For all practical purposes, the North is now effectively a vassal of Littlefingers forces.

[Kytheros]

1 hour ago, tugela said:

Do you mean how Lady Dustin ceased to be a Dustin just because her husband died? Kind of funny that she is still Lady Dustin then.

Catelyn may have been a Tulley once, but she became a Stark.

Likewise with Cercei. She does not get to inherit Casterly Rock because she is a Baratheon now. Due to the particular circumstances her family is in, the heir to the title of Lord Lannister is Kevin. He would have been followed by Lancel, but Lancel lost his claim when he made his vows to the faith militant.

The prevailing attitude in Westeros can be seen during Lyanna Mormonts questioning of the petitioners. She points out that Jon is a Snow, and that Sansa is a Bolton/Lannister - the implication is clear: she is not honor bound to support them individually. She goes further than that - when Sansa declares that she will always be a Stark, Lyanna says "if you say so" dismissively, which means that she is not convinced by that argument. But never the less she continues to support house Stark. Not necessarily the two individuals in front of her, since they are not Starks themselves, but the house itself. She does make that distinction.

Now, going forward, things can change. A lost Stark may show up. Rickon is dead, but Bran and Arya are not. Plus, Jon might get legitimized through some extraordinary measure. Plus there are almost certainly other Starks floating around who are further removed from the main line, such as cousins, second cousins etc. In the end, someone will step up to claim the title.

Except that is entirely not that case.

When a noblewoman marries, she normally ends up being referred to by whichever name - maiden or married - holds more status, usually according to the speaker, but when in her ancestral home, rather than her husband's ancestral home, she will usually by referred to by her maiden name (ie, Catelyn being referred to as Lady Tully in Riverrun, Cersei being Lady Lannister in Casterly Rock). Her children are referred to by their father's name, but she herself can be referred to by either her maiden or husband's name.

Cersei actually has inherited Casterly Rock (explicitly so in the books, it hasn't been explicit stated in the show). Her father died, and with Tyrion attainted for treason and his murder, and Jaime still in the Kingsguard, Cersei inherits first. Then would come Tommen, then Myrcella, and only then then would Casterly Rock go to Kevan.

 

If Sansa is Lady/Queen in the North, she'll likely legitimize Jon, giving him the Stark name, in order to make him her heir. Unless Bran or Arya show up/make contact after Sansa gets the position, but before she legitimizes Jon.

In the books, the Stark succession, per Robb's discussion with Catelyn, is very thin. Bran and Rickon are thought dead, Sansa is in Lannister hands, Arya is missing and Robb presumes her dead. Robb has no children. He says Jon should be his heir. Catelyn is opposed to Jon, and her statement indicates the next closest Stark relations, and trueborn/legitimate ones, are the "cousins in the Vale" - offhand, I can't remember exactly, but it's two or three generations back that a female Stark married a Valeman, IIRC one of the Royce branches.

[Red Tiger]

2 hours ago, tugela said:

Except that the north no longer has an army.

Houses Glover, Manderly, Dustin, Cerwyn and many others would like a word with you.

[RhaenysBee]

She can't and so she won't. Only the crown can legitimize someone.  The paper to legitimize Ramsay came from KL too, presumably with Tommen's signature. And even if she could, I don't think she would. 

[Juan_Snow]

2 hours ago, Red Tiger said:

Houses Glover, Manderly, Dustin, Cerwyn and many others would like a word with you.

Not to mention the surviving Karstark, Umber and Bolton troops.  No battle has 100% casualties.  I'm sure there are plenty that would rather bend the knee to Jon than die.

[illinifan]

10 hours ago, Adam141414 said:

Is the North strong enough to be independent from the seven kingdoms? House Stark is back in control in the North, yet its army is a coalition of Wildings and small Northern houses. The fact Wildings are part of the Stark army adds another dilemma to any attempt for Sansa/Jon to reunite the North under House Stark, given the Wildings are not trusted by Northmen. 

And how can the North declare their independence when they only won due to the Knights of the Vale. Its not exactly the definition of 'winning your independence' - relying on others to save you from defeat. If the North declare independence, then the Kingdom of the Mountain and the Vale should also declare their own independence. As if the North feel they are strong enough, then so should the Vale. 

 

 

Moat Caitlin and Winter protect the North.  Robb was stupid in trying to play the Game and leaving the North unprotected.  I doubt Jon will repeat that mistake.

[Iona]

5 hours ago, tugela said:

Do you mean how Lady Dustin ceased to be a Dustin just because her husband died? Kind of funny that she is still Lady Dustin then.

Catelyn may have been a Tulley once, but she became a Stark.

Likewise with Cercei. She does not get to inherit Casterly Rock because she is a Baratheon now. Due to the particular circumstances her family is in, the heir to the title of Lord Lannister is Kevin. He would have been followed by Lancel, but Lancel lost his claim when he made his vows to the faith militant.

As I said, if the ladies Dustin, Stark or Baratheon suddenly found themselves being in a situation similar as to where Sansa is now, having no members of the houses of their fathers alive that would inherit before them in a primogeniture, they'd become the rightful heads of those establishments by right of blood as Ryswell, Tully and Lannister. Cercei cannot inherit due to the fact that there's Lannister with a penis drawing breath ahead of her in the line of succession, for now at least. Marriage does not annul one's birthrights, even if women are highly unlikely to inherit.

If Sansa chose to remain a widowed lady Bolton, she would have every right to do so, but her view on the destiny of House Bolton was not left unclear in any shape or form, and she has another more powerful house to lead. Since she's in a unique position being also Lady Stark of Winterfell, the top dog of the North, she can do whatever she pleases with the vanquished Dreadfort - give it to some loyal follower or perhaps later to her second son to start a new house, or burn it and sow the land with salt...

 

In general, as to all this talk of whether theoretical queen Sansa of the North would legitimize her bastard brother, I highly doubt it. I reckon it would be a bit like shooting herself in the leg, as any children she'd have in the future would have to potentially fear uncle-Jon trying to plot their deaths in order to inherit Winterfell.

[Iona]

5 hours ago, Kytheros said:

Cersei actually has inherited Casterly Rock (explicitly so in the books, it hasn't been explicit stated in the show). Her father died, and with Tyrion attainted for treason and his murder, and Jaime still in the Kingsguard, Cersei inherits first. Then would come Tommen, then Myrcella, and only then then would Casterly Rock go to Kevan.

Except... Jamie quit KG in the show, so Cersei is still left licking her fingers!

And poor Myrcella is only heir to the worms eating her dead body...

[Kytheros]

4 hours ago, Iona said:

Except... Jamie quit KG in the show, so Cersei is still left licking her fingers!

And poor Myrcella is only heir to the worms eating her dead body...

Ah, but in the show, Cersei would have inherited Casterly Rock back when Tywin died - Jaime was still in the Kingsguard back then. As for whether Show-Casterly Rock got stripped from Show-Cersei and went to Show-Jaime when he got booted out of the Show-Kingsguard? I doubt it.

 

Myrcella is only dead on the show - my comment about her inheriting was book specific, where she's quite alive, albeit missing an ear. Book-Myrcella's probably going to succeed Tommen.

[Scorpion92]

I don't understand why people think the North does not have an army now.

Yes, a lot of Boltons, Karstarks, Umbers, Hornwoods, Mormonts, Mazins (show only house) and some wildlings got massacred. 

But the rest of the North did not partake in the battle - Glovers, Manderlys, Cerwyns, "two dozen more" who refused to join Jon and Sansa in the battle. Not to mention not ALL people died at Bastardbowl, some Bolton/Karstark/Umber soldiers no doubt surrendered once they saw they are doomed.

Now that Jon is King in the North, I think he can amass some force. Of course, this army will not be as strong as for example Vale or Westerland's army, but at least it is something.

And Littlefinger's influence is minimal, of course he brought the Vale army to help House Stark take back their seat. But it is clear as day he only did so to marry Sansa and become Lord of Winterfell through her, and therefore rule the North.

With Jon elected as King and Sansa supporting his claim publicly, he will have no right to intervene, and I doubt Lord Royce, Eddard Stark's friend from the Eyrie days, will dishonor his memory by enforcing Littlefinger's will on the North's futurr. He is the commander of the Vale troops and already in bad terms with Baelish. If he learns the truth behind Sansa's "abduction by Boltons", Littlefinger will lose all power over Vale forces and become surrounded by enemies (Jon, Sansa, and Lord Royce).

[Dragonslack]

If the spoilers say they make Jon king, nope.

[tugela]

13 hours ago, Kytheros said:

Except that is entirely not that case.

When a noblewoman marries, she normally ends up being referred to by whichever name - maiden or married - holds more status, usually according to the speaker, but when in her ancestral home, rather than her husband's ancestral home, she will usually by referred to by her maiden name (ie, Catelyn being referred to as Lady Tully in Riverrun, Cersei being Lady Lannister in Casterly Rock). Her children are referred to by their father's name, but she herself can be referred to by either her maiden or husband's name.

Cersei actually has inherited Casterly Rock (explicitly so in the books, it hasn't been explicit stated in the show). Her father died, and with Tyrion attainted for treason and his murder, and Jaime still in the Kingsguard, Cersei inherits first. Then would come Tommen, then Myrcella, and only then then would Casterly Rock go to Kevan.

 

If Sansa is Lady/Queen in the North, she'll likely legitimize Jon, giving him the Stark name, in order to make him her heir. Unless Bran or Arya show up/make contact after Sansa gets the position, but before she legitimizes Jon.

In the books, the Stark succession, per Robb's discussion with Catelyn, is very thin. Bran and Rickon are thought dead, Sansa is in Lannister hands, Arya is missing and Robb presumes her dead. Robb has no children. He says Jon should be his heir. Catelyn is opposed to Jon, and her statement indicates the next closest Stark relations, and trueborn/legitimate ones, are the "cousins in the Vale" - offhand, I can't remember exactly, but it's two or three generations back that a female Stark married a Valeman, IIRC one of the Royce branches.

Using English succession practices as a model, the following would apply (taken from Wikipedia):

Quote

The mode of inheritance of a hereditary peerage is determined by the method of its creation. Titles may be created by writ of summons or by letters patent. The former is merely a summons of an individual to Parliament—it does not explicitly confer a peerage—and descent is always to heirs of the body, male and female. The latter method explicitly creates a peerage and names the dignity in question. Letters patent may state the course of descent; normally, only male heirs are allowed to succeed to the peerage. A child is deemed to be legitimate if its parents are married at the time of its birth or marry later; only legitimate children may succeed to a title, and furthermore, an English, Irish, or British (but not Scottish) peerage can only be inherited by a child born legitimate, not legitimated by a later marriage.

Incidentally, since Sansa is attainted, she (and her descendants) have lost any claim they might have had to Winterfell.

[youshallnotpass]

6 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

I don't understand why people think the North does not have an army now.

Yes, a lot of Boltons, Karstarks, Umbers, Hornwoods, Mormonts, Mazins (show only house) and some wildlings got massacred. 

But the rest of the North did not partake in the battle - Glovers, Manderlys, Cerwyns, "two dozen more" who refused to join Jon and Sansa in the battle. Not to mention not ALL people died at Bastardbowl, some Bolton/Karstark/Umber soldiers no doubt surrendered once they saw they are doomed.

Now that Jon is King in the North, I think he can amass some force. Of course, this army will not be as strong as for example Vale or Westerland's army, but at least it is something.

And Littlefinger's influence is minimal, of course he brought the Vale army to help House Stark take back their seat. But it is clear as day he only did so to marry Sansa and become Lord of Winterfell through her, and therefore rule the North.

With Jon elected as King and Sansa supporting his claim publicly, he will have no right to intervene, and I doubt Lord Royce, Eddard Stark's friend from the Eyrie days, will dishonor his memory by enforcing Littlefinger's will on the North's futurr. He is the commander of the Vale troops and already in bad terms with Baelish. If he learns the truth behind Sansa's "abduction by Boltons", Littlefinger will lose all power over Vale forces and become surrounded by enemies (Jon, Sansa, and Lord Royce).

Yeah the north still has a sizeable army, I reckon it be around 10-12k left. 

To be honest I dont want Sansa as Queen she has basically done nothing except lie to Jon. Yes she might of saved them but she isnt fit to rule with Little finger be side her. 

 

I saw a post in the forum some where that: 

Spoiler

Everyone will declare Sansa the new Ruler of the north but then Manderly makes this big speech and everyone will declare Jon king. The character cast is a fat northern lord who last second shifts political allegiance.  

This would stuff up little fingers plans of the north and Sansa will have no choice but to declare Jon king as well hahah damn I hope so

 

[Scorpion92]

25 minutes ago, youshallnotpass said:

Yeah the north still has a sizeable army, I reckon it be around 10-12k left. 

To be honest I dont want Sansa as Queen she has basically done nothing except lie to Jon. Yes she might of saved them but she isnt fit to rule with Little finger be side her. 

 

I saw a post in the forum some where that: 

  Hide contents

Everyone will declare Sansa the new Ruler of the north but then Manderly makes this big speech and everyone will declare Jon king. The character cast is a fat northern lord who last second shifts political allegiance.  

This would stuff up little fingers plans of the north and Sansa will have no choice but to declare Jon king as well hahah damn I hope so

 

Nah, Sansa will not become Queen in the North, even though she has all right to be since Rickon is dead and Bran is missing. 

Jon will be ELECTED as King in the North thanks to northern lords and wildlings who are now citizens as well. His bastard status will not play a role since he was elected, and he will become King Jon Stark.

I am of the opinion that Sansa will mind much Jon becoming Lord of Winterfell because not only he was leading the charge to take back their home from an enemy, he will get rid of Sansa's main problem.

Remember how Jon said he will watch over her or Ned's ghost will come back and murder him in episode 4, and then how he will not let Ramsay touch her ever again last episode? Well, there will be one persistent fellow next episode who will want to claim his reward for helping her take back Winterfell, and I don't think he will take "No!" for an answer. Jon and Ghost will take care of Baelish problem. She will be very grateful for that. She never wanted to do anything with Littlefinger again, but circumstances forced her hand. Besides, we see Littlefinger very distressed in second trailer for this season at a figure approaching him, and I doubt that is Sansa. He usually has a pervy smile around her. I think he is in big trouble.

And the only way I see Sansa's storyline progressing is if she leaves south with Lord Royce and Vale army relatively safe and strengthening position House Stark's position in other kingdoms diplomatically. As Jon said in the preview "We have so many enemies now, we need to trust each other". He will need to focus his full attention on White Walkers, but he will be foolish not to allow Sansa to deal with Iron Throne threat (the capital will not be too happy with rebel Starks taking back their seat and declaring themselves separate kingdom again).

And guess what? They need more allies to deal with more enemies, and these potential allies are all in the south. I certainly can see Jon letting Sansa go on diplomatic mission for the next season with Vale army and honorable Lord Royce by her side who was Ned Stark's buddy by the way (they used to hunt together when Ned was at Eyrie and Royce stopped at Winterfell when escorting his son to the Wall).

[Smoke317]

Sansa will never rule the North.  She will never rule Winterfell. Nobody in the North is going to follow Sansa. She is not a leader.  Winter and War is coming.  Why would anyone with any sense elect and follow Sansa in a time like this...???  Of all the women that have ever been in the show and had a position of power (Cersei, Margaery, Olenna, Ellaria, Dany, Yara, Cat, Lysa, Lyanna Mormont, Woman Wildling chief at Hardhome), Sansa stands out as having NO commanding presence.  Not any...  Everything she says and does sounds like whining and pouting...  Seriously, why would anyone follow her?  This is the North we're talking about here. Sansa always hated the North. She couldn't wait to get to the South. Now that she went through hell in her Southern Dreamland, she's fit to lead the North???  Please...  Not a chance. Sansa would look good running the Riverlands. She and Littlefinger should go fuck over Edmure and the Freys for the Riverlands because the North ain't having any of it. 

[Maude Tyrell]

There's no point in legitimizing Jon anymore. I just don't see the significance of doing that. 

[youshallnotpass]

1 hour ago, Scorpion92 said:

Nah, Sansa will not become Queen in the North, even though she has all right to be since Rickon is dead and Bran is missing. 

Jon will be ELECTED as King in the North thanks to northern lords and wildlings who are now citizens as well. His bastard status will not play a role since he was elected, and he will become King Jon Stark.

I am of the opinion that Sansa will mind much Jon becoming Lord of Winterfell because not only he was leading the charge to take back their home from an enemy, he will get rid of Sansa's main problem.

Remember how Jon said he will watch over her or Ned's ghost will come back and murder him in episode 4, and then how he will not let Ramsay touch her ever again last episode? Well, there will be one persistent fellow next episode who will want to claim his reward for helping her take back Winterfell, and I don't think he will take "No!" for an answer. Jon and Ghost will take care of Baelish problem. She will be very grateful for that. She never wanted to do anything with Littlefinger again, but circumstances forced her hand. Besides, we see Littlefinger very distressed in second trailer for this season at a figure approaching him, and I doubt that is Sansa. He usually has a pervy smile around her. I think he is in big trouble.

And the only way I see Sansa's storyline progressing is if she leaves south with Lord Royce and Vale army relatively safe and strengthening position House Stark's position in other kingdoms diplomatically. As Jon said in the preview "We have so many enemies now, we need to trust each other". He will need to focus his full attention on White Walkers, but he will be foolish not to allow Sansa to deal with Iron Throne threat (the capital will not be too happy with rebel Starks taking back their seat and declaring themselves separate kingdom again).

And guess what? They need more allies to deal with more enemies, and these potential allies are all in the south. I certainly can see Jon letting Sansa go on diplomatic mission for the next season with Vale army and honorable Lord Royce by her side who was Ned Stark's buddy by the way (they used to hunt together when Ned was at Eyrie and Royce stopped at Winterfell when escorting his son to the Wall).

I 100% agree with you, im just hoping that Sanss tells Jon everything about little finger and his schemes and Jon will have at him, I can see little finger sneaking out of it his one creepy dude.

[Rory Snow]

1 hour ago, Maude Tyrell said:

There's no point in legitimizing Jon anymore. I just don't see the significance of doing that. 

Perhaps Sansa speaking of legitimizing Jon gets Baelish to share R+L=J suspicions