We need to trust each other now.

[Tchzaelous]

9 hours ago, Bran Snow said:

whether its LF > Jon convo or Jon > LF convo, I don't think it really matters. I'm not sure I see Sansa ever being too honest to Jon about LF's intentions. Sansa seems to be learning from LF and LF uses information as power. With everything that Sansa has been through, I see her holding on to information is her way of holding on to power. Now I hope she tells Jon everything but I doubt it.

 

I think Davos would be the best bet for Jon's Hand.

If she was really learning the Game from Littlefinger half as much as the writers are telling us she is, she'd understand the "pieces" much better then she does. It's artificial tension building and is making her character look incredibly stupid.

[Morgain]

10 hours ago, CBeck113 said:

Just remember, she never liked him, like her mother, so the question is if she's finally found respect for him or not.

Also Sansa has become ruthlessly realistic, forced to be. Jon can be trusted to be loyal to her, or any Stark (Bran) and not to double cross allies. He'll fight and fight, very bravely. But he cannot to trusted to keep his head as he will crash into rash action if honour or love prompts him. He's a good man, and in some ways a good battle leader (Wall) but has done badly in Ep 9. Sansa knew him well.

Sansa saw accurately that it was up to her to bring together the two armies of Northern lords + Wildlings, and the Vale. She could not trust Jon with her plans because he did not take Ramsay seriously. She did warn him he MUST NOT do what Ramsay wanted. 

Jon thinks as a soldier. When she warned him he talked of his own fighting triumphs in the north, which had little to do with how to beat Ramsay. For that he had to be cunning, and think like a psycho, which Jon cannot.

So there will be a nice reconciliation scene but Sansa will remain pretty detached. She is fond of Jon because he carries memory of their Winterfell childhood. But she doesn't allow that to blind her to his weaker side (as a ruler/ commander, not a person, his passionate loyalty is good for an indvidual person). She is far more a ruler than he is, ironically, as he'll be the King of the North in order to face the Others. But that he can do.

[HellasLEAF]

Think it's directly linked to Sansa not letting Jon in on the possibility of the Vale army and or Little Finger involvement.  

[Ice Spider]

At what point does LF become aware of the Others? Or will he be left cluelessly in the dark for another year? If he knew, would it changes his plans and desires?

[Morgain]

14 minutes ago, Ice Spider said:

At what point does LF become aware of the Others? Or will he be left cluelessly in the dark for another year? If he knew, would it changes his plans and desires?

Definitely it would. He's a clever man. If he knew the Others were about to invade with mega strength then plots for power in the south would have to be postponed. He'd back Jon as the experienced commander who knows this particular threat.

[Sir Matthis Light]

19 minutes ago, Ice Spider said:

At what point does LF become aware of the Others? Or will he be left cluelessly in the dark for another year? If he knew, would it changes his plans and desires?

I wanna know the same thing! You'd think the next time will see him Sansa or Jon would've told him about the main threat to Humanity!!!

But Idk, its really hard to tell whats gonna become of LF. I mean hes in the North, will he stay up there with the Vale Knights to help get ready for the Undead Army thats comming, or is he gonna head back south with new wife in Sansa, or empty handed for his efforts? Its really hard to tell.

But seeing that in the S6 Trailer we get a spooked LF meeting with someone, I'm willing to bet its Jon. Maybe Janos Slynt told Jon on how his "Traitor" of a father was deceived into thinking LF would support him, I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

[Ice Spider]

12 minutes ago, Sir Matthis Light said:

I wanna know the same thing! You'd think the next time will see him Sansa or Jon would've told him about the main threat to Humanity!!!

But Idk, its really hard to tell whats gonna become of LF. I mean hes in the North, will he stay up there with the Vale Knights to help get ready for the Undead Army thats comming, or is he gonna head back south with new wife in Sansa, or empty handed for his efforts? Its really hard to tell.

But seeing that in the S6 Trailer we get a spooked LF meeting with someone, I'm willing to bet its Jon. Maybe Janos Slynt told Jon on how his "Traitor" of a father was deceived into thinking LF would support him, I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

That's just it. If people would base their speculations on how they see the show ending and then work backwards, instead of trying to formulate theories based on where the show is at now, many of these crazy theories would disappear.

If we start with the most popular (and most likely) of end game theories, Jon and Dany joining forces to defeat the others, we need to formulate theories that make sense to that end. Game of "Thrones" eventually becomes Game of "Survival".

Many of our current characters (LF for example), just don't seem to fit into this endgame. So, we either start to see the beginning of a character arc change for LF, or, we will soon see his death. My money is on the latter.

[Ice Spider]

1 minute ago, Ice Spider said:

 

 

[Sir Matthis Light]

3 minutes ago, Ice Spider said:

That's just it. If people would base their speculations on how they see the show ending and then work backwards, instead of trying to formulate theories based on where the show is at now, many of these crazy theories would disappear.

If we start with the most popular (and most likely) of end game theories, Jon and Dany join forces to defeat the others. Game of "Thrones" eventually becomes Game of "Survival".

Many of our current characters (LF for example), just don't seem to fit into this endgame. So, we either start to see the beginning of a character arc change for LF, or, we will soon see his death. My money is on the latter.

Mind=Blown=Coma

 

[Boarsbane]

19 minutes ago, Morgain said:

Definitely it would. He's a clever man. If he knew the Others were about to invade with mega strength then plots for power in the south would have to be postponed. He'd back Jon as the experienced commander who knows this particular threat.

I don't believe it, there is a line by Vary  along the lines of: "He'd let the world burn if he could be king of the ashes". He's an immensely selfish and ambitious man and he won't set those aside for the greater good. 

[Morgain]

10 minutes ago, Boarsbane said:

I don't believe it, there is a line by Vary  along the lines of: "He'd let the world burn if he could be king of the ashes". He's an immensely selfish and ambitious man and he won't set those aside for the greater good. 

Not greater good. He will see he'll be lord of nothing if the Others aren't stopped. So he'll join that unity to stop them - planning to go straight back to his own plan afterwards. He's shown he can postpone his immediate desire before.

[Boarsbane]

6 minutes ago, Morgain said:

Not greater good. He will see he'll be lord of nothing if the Others aren't stopped. So he'll join that unity to stop them - planning to go straight back to his own plan afterwards. He's shown he can postpone his immediate desire before.

Maybe but remember this is a man who started a bloody civil war for sole purpose of advancing his own self, he's as likely to see them as an opportunity as he is a threat. I'm not convinced he'd lift a finger unless they threatened his own person directly and I imagine he will be heading south soon so they won't be if that's the case.

[Tchzaelous]

2 hours ago, Morgain said:

Also Sansa has become ruthlessly realistic, forced to be. Jon can be trusted to be loyal to her, or any Stark (Bran) and not to double cross allies. He'll fight and fight, very bravely. But he cannot to trusted to keep his head as he will crash into rash action if honour or love prompts him. He's a good man, and in some ways a good battle leader (Wall) but has done badly in Ep 9. Sansa knew him well.

Sansa saw accurately that it was up to her to bring together the two armies of Northern lords + Wildlings, and the Vale. She could not trust Jon with her plans because he did not take Ramsay seriously. She did warn him he MUST NOT do what Ramsay wanted. 

Jon thinks as a soldier. When she warned him he talked of his own fighting triumphs in the north, which had little to do with how to beat Ramsay. For that he had to be cunning, and think like a psycho, which Jon cannot.

So there will be a nice reconciliation scene but Sansa will remain pretty detached. She is fond of Jon because he carries memory of their Winterfell childhood. But she doesn't allow that to blind her to his weaker side (as a ruler/ commander, not a person, his passionate loyalty is good for an indvidual person). She is far more a ruler than he is, ironically, as he'll be the King of the North in order to face the Others. But that he can do.

Pretty sure if Jon can kill Qhorin Halfhand and infiltrate the wildlings for a time, he can handle not blurting out every battle tactic or secret he runs across. Again Sansa doesn't even know how to use the "pieces" she has.

She's no Littlefinger, not even close.

Edit: I'll even go one further, all she has to do is come clean with what happened to Lysa and in one move she could shut down Littlefinger and take his army by securing the loyalty of Bronze Yohn.... Sweetrobin even likes her... Shes in the perfect position to, but nope.

Let's get half the Northern Army killed and then try and look badass on my pony afterwards.

[Morgain]

11 minutes ago, Tchzaelous said:

Pretty sure if Jon can kill Qhorin Halfhand and infiltrate the wildlings for a time, he can handle not blurting out every battle tactic or secret he runs across.

Not about blurting secrets. It's about what Ramsay did very successfully. He made Jon lose it by using Rickon to bait him.

That's exactly the kind of manipulation Sansa warned him about. That is, if Ramsay wants you to something [try to rescue your brother] don't. It's a trap.

[Tchzaelous]

47 minutes ago, Morgain said:

Not about blurting secrets. It's about what Ramsay did very successfully. He made Jon lose it by using Rickon to bait him.

That's exactly the kind of manipulation Sansa warned him about. That is, if Ramsay wants you to something [try to rescue your brother] don't. It's a trap.

How was it a trap exactly though? I agree him running forward was incredibly stupid, but it wasn't some kind of tactical genius ploy. All it succeeded in doing was force the calvalry to meet up sooner. Unless you're thinking they wouldn't have responded once Ramsay's horses charged forward?

Now, if Ramsay had his 20 good men wearing grass covered gear suddenly stood up in a circle around Jon successfully capturing him, that changes the outcome. They would then have the Northern "Savior" as a captive. In this case, all Ramsay succeeded in doing was kill Rickon (which as Sansa stated was pretty much a given anyway) and make the horses clash 2 minutes sooner.

[VarysWig]

1 hour ago, Tchzaelous said:

How was it a trap exactly though? I agree him running forward was incredibly stupid, but it wasn't some kind of tactical genius ploy. All it succeeded in doing was force the calvalry to meet up sooner. Unless you're thinking they wouldn't have responded once Ramsay's horses charged forward?

I was under the impression it was a trap because he brought the Cavalry into arrow firing range, exactly where Ramsey wanted the battle to be so he could begin working on the corpse wall with ease.

[Chib]

5 hours ago, Morgain said:

Definitely it would. He's a clever man. If he knew the Others were about to invade with mega strength then plots for power in the south would have to be postponed. He'd back Jon as the experienced commander who knows this particular threat.

 

The thing is do LF and the rest of the North and the Vale believe in Jon's talk about WW an the zombie army? 

[WeCameFromNorth]

On 6/23/2016 at 3:45 AM, Tchzaelous said:

Let's get half the Northern Army killed and then try and look badass on my pony afterwards.

[Les Météores D]

12 hours ago, Tchzaelous said:

She's no Littlefinger, not even close.

Edit: I'll even go one further, all she has to do is come clean with what happened to Lysa and in one move she could shut down Littlefinger and take his army by securing the loyalty of Bronze Yohn.... Sweetrobin even likes her... Shes in the perfect position to, but nope.

This is my number 1 reason why I think she's not fit to rule, not yet. And she has no experience at ruling a castle let alone the North. Jon is lacking badly in many areas but at least he gets that he needs smart people he can trust around him (he explicitly said so to Sam), if he doesn't learn his lesson after his last emotional blunder then, yes, he's hopeless she should toss him away. 

[King Perkis]

11 hours ago, Morgain said:

Not greater good. He will see he'll be lord of nothing if the Others aren't stopped. So he'll join that unity to stop them - planning to go straight back to his own plan afterwards. He's shown he can postpone his immediate desire before.

In fairness, if you remember LF speech on "chaos is the ladder out of the pit," you'll see his true intentions. He started the civil war to move forward with his goal. The WWs are just more chaos that will eliminate more players in the game and allow LF to move further forward. Not saying he won't sacrifice a ton to get to that ultimate goal but the WW are an opportunity to him and not a threat.