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What would you do differently as Jon Snow

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You are Jon Snow now, Ramsey and his army is in front of you and Rickon runs towards you.

What would you do now, and afterwards. What would be your strategy.

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24 minutes ago, El Diego said:

"RUN IN A RANDOM PATTERN!!!"

That would be more of advice for poor Rickon. 

And if I were Jon the only thing I'd do differently would be listen to Sansa!

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4 minutes ago, PetyrPunkinhead said:

And if I were Jon the only thing I'd do differently would be listen to Sansa!

Listen to what? She told him nothing of use.

I would like to say I would do something differently, but honestly, I would most likely do the exact same thing as Jon. 

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10 minutes ago, PetyrPunkinhead said:

That would be more of advice for poor Rickon. 

And if I were Jon the only thing I'd do differently would be listen to Sansa!

OK Sansa is now master adviser with her Ramsey like play games.

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Sansa: Don't do what Ramsay wants you to do. he's manipulative and smarter than both of us. Just don't do whatever it is he wants you to do.

Jon: You got it sis!

Ramsay: Come charge me, bastard.

Jon: Okay! *derp*

:uhoh:

Don't get me wrong, his flaw makes him more relateable and it made for same damn good drama and tension for that battle, but yeah, "if I were Jon," I'd listen to Sansa and stick with the plan I developed the night before.

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Just now, PetyrPunkinhead said:

Sansa: Don't do what Ramsay wants you to do. he's manipulative and smarter than both of us. Just don't do whatever it is he wants you to do.

Jon: You got it sis!

Ramsay: Come charge me, bastard.

Jon: Okay! *derp*

:uhoh:

Don't ge tme wrong, his flaw makes him more relatable and it made for same damn good drama and tension for that battle, but yeah, "if I were Jon," I'd listen to Sansa.

 

Sansa did not tell Jon: "Don't run towards him!"

That would me much easier to get. in reality, she did not say anything useful at all. Her advice is the same as: "Be careful of the traffic!!"

Bleh...

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1 minute ago, PetyrPunkinhead said:

Sansa: Don't do what Ramsay wants you to do. he's manipulative and smarter than both of us. Just don't do whatever it is he wants you to do.

Jon: You got it sis!

Ramsay: Come charge me, bastard.

Jon: Okay! *derp*

:uhoh:

Don't ge tme wrong, his flaw makes him more relatable and it made for same damn good drama and tension for that battle, but yeah, "if I were Jon," I'd listen to Sansa.

That's easy to say in hindsight but... your little brother is running toward you, arrows keep just missing him. Tough to think straight in that scenario.

But of course with the knowledge we have now the correct answer is to not run. Though the outcome of the battle wouldn't have changed it would have probably saved a bunch of lives.

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Nah, Sansa warned Jon the night before the battle as well that Rickon was dead and to get in that mindset that there is no scenario in which their little brother lives. No way Ramsay can let him live. Jon chose to ignore that advice and not get in the right mindframe for what was to come. And many free folk paid the price for his tactical folly with their lives. So yeah, Jon Snow is my boy, but Sansa really won back Winterfel.

What will be really interesting to find out is if she knew about the cavalry coming or not. If she did know, then I really don't like that she wrote to Littlefinger in the first place without telling Jon. What's so bad about saying, "Jon, I sent a raven to the Eyrie. Hold up for the cavalry, bro!"??? 

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She did, but I still don't Rickon was necessarily going to get hit by an arrow from Ramsay. I mean, it obviously he always was because the plot demanded it but irl the chances of Ramsay hitting Rickon from there are far from 100%. Even if Jon had taken everything Sansa said on board I think he would have been justified in thinking he had a legitimate shot at saving Rickon. I'm not saying it is a good move, mind you. Even if he gets to Rickon they are almost certainly arrow volleyed/charged to death, but I understand him doing it.

As for the cavalry the whole situation is such a clusterfuck that there is no good, rational way for it to be explained. The whole set up was flawed. I get it is fantasy and a story but there are certain things that just don't add up on any plane of thought.

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33 minutes ago, PetyrPunkinhead said:

That would be more of advice for poor Rickon. 

And if I were Jon the only thing I'd do differently would be listen to Sansa!

To be a heartless dude who thinks your home is better than your brother? NOPE.

Wouldnt you try to save if it was your mother, father? I would. I am not so heartless. They are not pawns in a bigger battle.

Differently?

I would ask..no Order Davos to stick to the plan even if I die. And do NOT charge at any cost.

Then I would try to go and save my brother if possible. If I die, I die. That is it.

Sansa's advice was useless before the battle due to lack of specefics. Don't glorify that.

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There is no hearltessness in Sansa's advice. She's just being pragmatic. Nor do I think it would be heartless to NOT ride after Rickon. The way in which Rickon died was heartless. The man who killed him certainly was heartless. But refusing to sacrifice yourself to NOT save the life of a loved on is not hearltessness either, it's dumbassness. Jon is alive because he was lucky. Rickon is still dead. And the majority of the free folk along with him. Jon talked those wildlings into joining his army. Jon is their commander. Not Davos or anyone else. Jon had a responsibility for their lives. He fucked them over in one of the worst ways a field commander can. Jon's my boy and all, but that's truth right there.

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5 minutes ago, robasp2 said:

To be a heartless dude who thinks your home is better than your brother? NOPE.

Wouldnt you try to save if it was your mother, father? I would. I am not so heartless. They are not pawns in a bigger battle.

Differently?

I would ask..no Order Davos to stick to the plan even if I die. And do NOT charge at any cost.

Then I would try to go and save my brother if possible. If I die, I die. That is it.

Sansa's advice was useless before the battle due to lack of specefics. Don't glorify that.

 

Exactly, it was Sansa who pushed Jon into battle in the first place. She was like "WE HAVE TO SAVE RICKON!!"

And then she was like: "He is dead no matter what, don't waste your time saving him."

lol then what the hell are they doing there in the first place?

Jon's motivation was saving his family and unite the north against WW.

Sansa's motivation was just to take a revenge on Ramsay and get back WF.

They were having different mindsets. Sansa cares only for revenge. It was not even for her family's name at all. 

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39 minutes ago, PetyrPunkinhead said:

Nah, Sansa warned Jon the night before the battle as well that Rickon was dead and to get in that mindset that there is no scenario in which their little brother lives. No way Ramsay can let him live. Jon chose to ignore that advice and not get in the right mindframe for what was to come. And many free folk paid the price for his tactical folly with their lives. So yeah, Jon Snow is my boy, but Sansa really won back Winterfel.

What will be really interesting to find out is if she knew about the cavalry coming or not. If she did know, then I really don't like that she wrote to Littlefinger in the first place without telling Jon. What's so bad about saying, "Jon, I sent a raven to the Eyrie. Hold up for the cavalry, bro!"??? 

Sansa didn't win back Winterfell. Sansa just as much as Jon got a lot of people killed by allowing him to go into battle half cocked because she withheld a giant ass army.  total selfish bitch move. She gets no credit or recognition from me. I'm not drinking the Sansa is the heroine kool aid D&D are selling.  They could have had Sansa tell Jon about the Vale.  Then the battle could have still happened the same way. Once Ramsey sends in his infantry, Jon blows the war horn and the Vale comes and mops up.  Then both Jon and Sansa look smart, heroic, and United.  Instead they made Jon look dumb and reckless to give Sansa a big moment.  Judging by how D&D & Sansa played Jon, he had no choice but to do what he did. Had he returned to his lines, Ramsey would have advanced slowly and rained arrows on them from a distance, decimating his forces. Jon's last stand charge got Ramsey to foolishly send in his cavalry. Rain down arrows on his own men. Then send in his infantry. Imagine if Jon had a Vale army on standby that he could have blown a horn as soon as Ramsey sent in his infantry to route the Boltons...  Would have lost a lot fewer men...  Don't solely blame Jon for his men's deaths. Blame Sansa just as much or even more. But really blame D&D by screwing up both characters just to make Ramsey the super smart villain and Sansa the super smart heroine that kills him and gets her revenge...  All while the character GRRM has deemed most important looks like a fool in his supposed "biggest moment"...  I call bullshit. 

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 At that moment? Once he was dead he should have turned around and rode back to his troops to rally them. But I understand why he didn't.

But I would never have let it get so far as I previously had the option to:

  1. Follow my own plan and not attack until having spoken to the Manderlys. We can skip Bear Island instead.
  2. Ask Mel whether she can see anything helpful in her flames.
  3. Tried to take WF/rescue Rickon from within. Apparently some geriatrics still remember and I managed to pull the same stunt in the book. If Yara can do it then I and Sansa, who have grown up there, certainly can. And I have 2k men who are good at climbing walls.
  4. Surprise attack! If I cant sneak up at my own castle I shouldn't be leading the Northern armies.
  5. Attack somewhere else. I hear the Dreadfort is almost undefended.
  6. Parlay didn't go as planned? How unfortunate. We agreed to attack at dawn? :lmao:All the more reason to attack in the middle of the night when no one is expecting it.
  7. Hey, Mel, how about a shadow baby? :leer:

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What Jon did this episode was perfectly in his character, book and show wise. Who knows what anyone would do if faced with such trauma. We cannot judge objectively.

Book Jon also got baited by Ramsay into making the biggest mistake of his life so far (the Pink Letter). Jon got emotional, reckless and decided to desert the Night's Watch to go fight against Ramsay with insufficient force just because his family was threatened. He didn't even know whether anything in that letter was true. He also made his plans/intentions public so that the NW had reason to get rid of him.  Book Jon is even more hot-headed than show Jon.

It was a brilliant way for the show to parallel its plot with the book's plot (Pink Letter/desertion) when it comes to Jon's character.

So anyone saying bad writing or OOC is missing the entire point and completely misinterpreting the character.

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Oh and another one - make sure to feed Ghost so he doesn't run away. Then have him rip out Ramsay's theoat at the parlay he stupidly agreed to. 

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17 minutes ago, Darksky said:

What Jon did this episode was perfectly in his character, book and show wise. Who knows what anyone would do if faced with such trauma. We cannot judge objectively.

Book Jon also got baited by Ramsay into making the biggest mistake of his life so far (the Pink Letter). Jon got emotional, reckless and decided to desert the Night's Watch to go fight against Ramsay with insufficient force just because his family was threatened. He didn't even know whether anything in that letter was true. Book Jon is even more hot-headed than show Jon.

It was a brilliant way for the show to parallel its plot with the book's plot (Pink Letter/desertion) when it comes to Jon's character.

So anyone saying bad writing or OOC is missing the entire point and completely misinterpreting the character.

He deserted and got a hot head because the letter said Ramsey wanted "Arya" back and she was somewhere out there.  He wanted to ride and join Robb but turned back with help from his nights watch brothers.  That was still early in his time at the wall.  He sure as hell wouldn't abandon the watch for Sansa who constantly reminds him he's a bastard.  So it's nowhere near the same plot and the character is not the same. It's always been Jon and Arya who are the closest. Then Robb and Bran. He didn't go after Theon when he thought he had killed Bran and Rickon.  Like Littlefinger told Lysa "Only Cat".  Jon would abandon the Watch for "Only Arya".  This is bad writing. First to get Sansa to the North. Then after the backlash of getting her raped and ruining the perceived growth she showed in the Vale, they wanted to make her some empowered heroine and in the process made Jon a fool.  I take that back. Not bad but terrible dumbass writing. They ruined the character that GRRM probably told them was the main character Jon in order to throw Sansa fans a bone.  Should have left her in the Vale and had her and LF scheme and fuck up the Freys rather than scheme and fuck up her brother and his men.  Oh my bad, "half brother" because he's just a bastard to her after all...

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