What would you do differently as Jon Snow

[Les Météores D]

36 minutes ago, robasp2 said:

To be a heartless dude who thinks your home is better than your brother? NOPE.

Wouldnt you try to save if it was your mother, father? I would. I am not so heartless. They are not pawns in a bigger battle.

Differently?

I would ask..no Order Davos to stick to the plan even if I die. And do NOT charge at any cost.

Then I would try to go and save my brother if possible. If I die, I die. That is it.

Sansa's advice was useless before the battle due to lack of specefics. Don't glorify that.

Pretty much this. Basically, that's Jon's only huge mistake. Riding to Rickon was the trap, not charging alone (to mostly avoid arrows since he charged after). Seems like it's the new trend: Jon's a dumbass and incompetent because he's not a cynical a** and a seasoned field commander.

Sansa's advice were good but nullified the moment she didn't tell about the possibility of the Valemen and her insight was too vague anyway. She should've said "look, this is what he does to mess with people's mind" and told what happened on her wedding night and how he broke Theon. Preferably not at the eve of the battle. Not to mention she contradicted herself "we have to save them both" (WF & Rickon) then weeks later "he's gone already", that's understandable from her pov but Jon & Davos aren't mind readers. 

[Chib]

11 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

He deserted and got a hot head because the letter said Ramsey wanted "Arya" back and she was somewhere out there.  He wanted to ride and join Robb but turned back with help from his nights watch brothers.  That was still early in his time at the wall.  He sure as hell wouldn't abandon the watch for Sansa who constantly reminds him he's a bastard.  So it's nowhere near the same plot and the character is not the same. It's always been Jon and Arya who are the closest. Then Robb and Bran. He didn't go after Theon when he thought he had killed Bran and Rickon.  Like Littlefinger told Lysa "Only Cat".  Jon would abandon the Watch for "Only Arya".  This is bad writing. First to get Sansa to the North. Then after the backlash of getting her raped and ruining the perceived growth she showed in the Vale, they wanted to make her some empowered heroine and in the process made Jon a fool.  I take that back. Not bad but terrible dumbass writing. They ruined the character that GRRM probably told them was the main character Jon in order to throw Sansa fans a bone.  Should have left her in the Vale and had her and LF scheme and fuck up the Freys rather than scheme and fuck up her brother and his men.  Oh my bad, "half brother" because he's just a bastard to her after all...

 

Good point. The book Jon got mad because he thought it was Arya, the closest sibling he had, not Sansa who was always so distant to him. He did not go after Theon for Bran and Rickon. Why he would go such far just for Sansa? lol  

[jrod]

Honestly I don't think riding out after Rickon was that big of a mistake, and honestly fits with the character/family.  Ned was convinced to "give up his honor" and lie saying he was trying to seize the throne for himself because he was trying to save/protect Sansa.  So Jon riding out when he sees Rickon isn't that surprising/shocking to me.

 

To me the big issue is after he sees Rickon die he charges by himself at the Bolton army.  THAT was the mistake.  If he would have returned to his lines after that, "no harm, no foul" at that point.  But he did let himself get caught up in Ramsey's trap (like Sansa warned he would try).  

[Rumy Stark]

9 hours ago, tinka10 said:

I would like to say I would do something differently, but honestly, I would most likely do the exact same thing as Jon. 

Yep. I like to think I'd have had my head on straight and not allowed myself to be emotionally manipulated, but like.... if my little brother was in danger I'd try to save him, and if he was brutally murdered in front of me I'd charge forward in a rage for sure. 

9 hours ago, PetyrPunkinhead said:

Sansa: Don't do what Ramsay wants you to do. he's manipulative and smarter than both of us. Just don't do whatever it is he wants you to do.

Jon: You got it sis!

Ramsay: Come charge me, bastard.

Jon: Okay! *derp*

Don't get me wrong, his flaw makes him more relateable and it made for same damn good drama and tension for that battle, but yeah, "if I were Jon," I'd listen to Sansa and stick with the plan I developed the night before.

This, pretty much. 

8 hours ago, PetyrPunkinhead said:

There is no hearltessness in Sansa's advice. She's just being pragmatic. Nor do I think it would be heartless to NOT ride after Rickon. The way in which Rickon died was heartless. The man who killed him certainly was heartless. But refusing to sacrifice yourself to NOT save the life of a loved on is not hearltessness either, it's dumbassness. Jon is alive because he was lucky. Rickon is still dead. And the majority of the free folk along with him. Jon talked those wildlings into joining his army. Jon is their commander. Not Davos or anyone else. Jon had a responsibility for their lives. He fucked them over in one of the worst ways a field commander can. Jon's my boy and all, but that's truth right there.

Yep. 

[Darksky]

9 hours ago, Smoke317 said:

He deserted and got a hot head because the letter said Ramsey wanted "Arya" back and she was somewhere out there.  He wanted to ride and join Robb but turned back with help from his nights watch brothers.  That was still early in his time at the wall.  He sure as hell wouldn't abandon the watch for Sansa who constantly reminds him he's a bastard.  So it's nowhere near the same plot and the character is not the same. It's always been Jon and Arya who are the closest. Then Robb and Bran. He didn't go after Theon when he thought he had killed Bran and Rickon.  Like Littlefinger told Lysa "Only Cat".  Jon would abandon the Watch for "Only Arya".  This is bad writing. First to get Sansa to the North. Then after the backlash of getting her raped and ruining the perceived growth she showed in the Vale, they wanted to make her some empowered heroine and in the process made Jon a fool.  I take that back. Not bad but terrible dumbass writing. They ruined the character that GRRM probably told them was the main character Jon in order to throw Sansa fans a bone.  Should have left her in the Vale and had her and LF scheme and fuck up the Freys rather than scheme and fuck up her brother and his men.  Oh my bad, "half brother" because he's just a bastard to her after all...

wtf are you on about? we're discussing a specific case.. The Rickon one, why are you brining Sansa into this?

[Slingingstones]

I'm with those who feel Jon was compelled to try to save his brother, Rickon, in this instance.  No one gives their brother up for dead if there's any chance, no matter how small, to at least try.  It was no mistake.  Its what decent humans do.

I'm reminded of Lt. Col. Charles  Kettles, 86, recalling the events of May 15, 1967: flying his UH-1 helicopter time after time after time into dizzying, withering fire to save the lives of dozens of soldiers ambushed by  North Vietnamese troops  in the Song Tau Cau river valley; nursing the shot-up, overloaded bird out of harm’s way with the final eight soldiers who’d been mistakenly left behind.  Col. Kettles, finally, in 2016 will be awarded the CMH.

Sometimes we must be reminded of our humanity and how people react during times of war.

[Direwight]

Well, if I've already arranged my troops in a neat line opposite Ramsay's neat line, then I'm screwed pretty much whatever I do, I'd think. There's hardly anything I could do to turn that into a win.

Now, if we wind the clock back a day, then I'd just set up an ambush at the site of the parlay and kill him there. The treeline was close enough, just hide a few dozen archers there. Now, that might be a bad idea if I was up against someone respected so that killing them in such a manner would dent my own honour and reputation, but since it's Ramsay who everyone in the North should by now know is a monster, that shouldn't be much of a problem. Especially since my personal honour and reputation is not very important since obviously Winterfell is supposed to go to Sansa or Rickon anyway.

Oh, and tell Wun-wun to go pick up a tree or something.

[King Perkis]

I'd do this thing where I make a Plan B. So, if we are forced to charge for some reason and are forced to confront Ramsey's larger force without a protected side its not an utter debacle where no leadership occurs. In the case that I do charge Davos, you are not to let them reinforce whatever force I am facing without being hit by at least two volleys (so that means move forward to cover but stay out of their archers range). That seems somewhat fair, especially because it would prevent the whole getting encircled and trapped debacle or would at least slow that possibility down. And it's been said several times in several threads, give Wun Wun a damn log and a basic level of armor (not even metal just some think leathers). It is so unbelievable to portray Wun Wun like he was, look back and the Hound was allowed to cut a man in half and the Mountain was able to cut a horses head off in 1 or 2 swipes and smash a guys head with a flick of his wrist. The idea that the most Wun Wun can do is knock a horse over with his hand and swing his fist around and just knock men down is laughable at best.

[plastic throne]

What would I do? I'd stay put, but I'd send someone to fetch Rickon if by any chance he 'dodges' the coming rain of arrows (I'm positive there would be volunteers, though I'd suggest them to stay out of bow range). Would I feel bad about it if I failed? Yes, definitely. But would I go and be suicidal whilst thousands (including my sister and all my friends) rely on me to survive the battle? No. Also, ghost by my side and use Wun Wun accordingly to his advantage.

As for the original battle plans, those were ok, I guess, I am missing detail (landscape, etc) to even comment on changes there. Next, I'd actually scout the place around on the very morning, making sure there aren't any surprises layed by Boltons, and perhaps, by scouting, I'd even see the coming Vale army?

However, I'm quite certain I'd sense Sansa something hiding from me and I swear, if I ever (later on, after so many have died) learned she hid the fact of Vale's army supporting us, she would never see daylight ever again. Best case scenario she'd be locked in her room for eternity.

[ilikethesebooks]

I wouldn't have shown up with an armorless and weaponless giant. I woulda had the giant run out with a giant fucking shield and just walk Rickon back to the lines gg

[King Perkis]

47 minutes ago, ilikethesebooks said:

I wouldn't have shown up with an armorless and weaponless giant. I woulda had the giant run out with a giant fucking shield and just walk Rickon back to the lines gg

Lol this. I would have loved to have seen Ramsey's trick foiled, him get pissed and charge, Jon's army sticking to plan and outsmarting Ramsey, then Vale comes in and cleans up house. This episode is about Ramsey's demise, jon doing what he does, and Sansa playing the "game," and all that could have been met in another way.

[LordBloodraven]

I would do as he did. And if Rickon dies as he did, I would put him on my horse and go back to my troops.

[Smoke317]

4 hours ago, Darksky said:

wtf are you on about? we're discussing a specific case.. The Rickon one, why are you brining Sansa into this?

the fuck I'm on about was responding to an earlier post about Jon's character this season matching his in book character. I wasn't responding to the OP...  Got it?  Good. Now the reasoning for bringing Sansa into the discussion is because D&D have altered Jon & Sansa's characters drastically by installing her into a part of the story she was never supposed to be in...  So the majority of Jon's actions leading up to the Rickon target practice scene have been directly influenced by Sansa by encouraging him or withholding information. As to the OP's question, I don't think there was nothing Jon could have done differently. Had he returned to his lines, the Boltons would have advanced slowly and rained arrows on his men from a distance decimating his forces before sending in their cavalry and infantry.  Jon's charge was what made Ramsey foolishly send in his cavalry and then rain down arrows on his own men.  Perhaps Jon's best move would have been to retreat into the forest and hope Ramsey followed and engage in a guerrilla warfare type of combat. Highly unlikely Ramsey would have obliged and it wouldn't be the open battle D&D were looking for.  Now you know exactly every I'm fucking on about. Any more questions?

[Ser Greenseer]

"SERPENTINE RICKON! SERPENTINE!!!"

But in all honesty Jon was poorly prepared for that fight. He and his troops were ill equipped and ill positioned to fight. If I could do one thing before the battle I would make Wun Wun a big ass shield and a big ass club.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Ask to Davos and Tormund to stick to the plan. Run towards rickon with quickly ordering some other expendable dudes holding shields runing as well.  My brother and lord of Winterfell>them. Then run back and hope I survive Before the battle would also try my damnest for my army to have more shields and helmets. Maybe we can't equip most of our troops but we could do more.

So still try to save Rickon, even if it is more likely he would die, I still consider the decent thing to do is to take the risk and try to save him than simply abadon him to his fate, but also hope to fight the battle properly. If I die running back to my army, so be it

But this is speaking from emotional distance and hindsight.

In any case, at worst I would order some other people to run and die and bring Rickon back. I wouldn't do nothing.

[plastic throne]

I don't know guys if you understand - if you're Jon Snow and killed before the battle even begins - how demoralizing this is for an army? To loose their savior, the one who was raised from the dead to lead them against the end of the world BUT killed in front of their eyes in first battle against some sadistic bastard.

 

There's 2 possibilities - them initiating a battle and retreat at first hint of loosing. Or retreat immediately after witnessing the killing.

And that's how Jon looses friends, Rickon, Sansa, everyone... There's just too much at stake to play a standard superhero, seriously, send someone else to fetch Rickon, if I'm correct, Jon ain't the only one who can ride horse, right?

[Ser Yorick Ampersand]

Unleash Ghost on the Bolton army.

[Sand11751]

So Ghost could have looked like Wun Wun before the battle even really begun? Be nice instead if one damned direwolf made it to season 7.

Even if Jon had turned back right after his brother's death, he was still well within range of Ramsay who could have taken him. I was surprised that Ramsay didn't try. Still, if there's one thing I wish Jon could have done differently, he could have been less impulsive. Meeting the entire Bolton army by himself and then once Ramsay flees, Jon initially goes after him with Wun Wun and Tormund. Both actions that tempted a quick death. Hoping for some pragmatism to rub off on him. Too many dead Starks now.   

[tmug]

The main reason why Rickon didn't "zig zag" around to dodge Ramsey's arrows was because Jon was riding straight at him with his hand out ready to sweep him up. That's why he ran straight the whole time! Yet another dumb move by our boy Jon Snow Knows Nothing.

If I were Jon in that situation, at the very least give an order before charging out there. Something like "Sir Davos, you have command!" At least it would make him appear less stupid knowing that he is going to give his life up for a chance to save Rickon. The surprised look on his face once he was in front of the cavalry made him look like an idiot, not heroic. 

He didn't even get to make a pre-battle speech, not a word. Something that bothers me is that Jon never gave one command, not one! At Hardholme, he was portrayed much much better. Davos was calling all the shots during the battle. Jon was just another soldier out there, not a commander. Basically they went out of their way to portray him as the other bastard of the battle, an inexperienced soldier of a boy who took a step back from whatever progress he made at the Wall & Hardholme. #Shame

[yakisikli123]

For me Home Land Country comes before family, that means I would sacrifice my brother, sister, family to get my land back.

But he thought, he could rescue him.

The quick way was to go straight no zigzag. 

He was impulsive riding alone towards Ramseys army, but not because he is a bad commander or not because he doesn't know tactics, he has still no confidence, therefore thinks like a normal soldier, maybe he would sacrifice himself to rescue one soldier.

Therefore he needs to learn RLJ.