What would you do differently as Jon Snow

[The Dames do Moan]

17 hours ago, plastic throne said:

What would I do? I'd stay put, but I'd send someone to fetch Rickon if by any chance he 'dodges' the coming rain of arrows (I'm positive there would be volunteers, though I'd suggest them to stay out of bow range). Would I feel bad about it if I failed? Yes, definitely. But would I go and be suicidal whilst thousands (including my sister and all my friends) rely on me to survive the battle? No. Also, ghost by my side and use Wun Wun accordingly to his advantage.

As for the original battle plans, those were ok, I guess, I am missing detail (landscape, etc) to even comment on changes there. Next, I'd actually scout the place around on the very morning, making sure there aren't any surprises layed by Boltons, and perhaps, by scouting, I'd even see the coming Vale army?

However, I'm quite certain I'd sense Sansa something hiding from me and I swear, if I ever (later on, after so many have died) learned she hid the fact of Vale's army supporting us, she would never see daylight ever again. Best case scenario she'd be locked in her room for eternity.

Lol, so you'd turn into Ramsey and do exactly as he did? Have fun

If your Jon and u really do am wish to ignore Sansa's advice from less than 1 day prior then u have 2 do a few things, either send someone else out, or tell your army not to charge. There hole battle plan was don't charge.

if I'm Sansa, I probably do exactly what she did, maybe, if I knew for sure the Vale was coming I'd let Jon know they were her but that he had no tactical command over what they will be doing. He screwed up his battle plans, ignored her advice and would've gotten team Jon slaughtered to the man. Chances are good had he had the Vale he would've done the same. 

 

[plastic throne]

2 minutes ago, The Dames do Moan said:

Lol, so you'd turn into Ramsey and do exactly as he did? Have fun

If your Jon and u really do am wish to ignore Sansa's advice from less than 1 day prior then u have 2 do a few things, either send someone else out, or tell your army not to charge. There hole battle plan was don't charge.

if I'm Sansa, I probably do exactly what she did, maybe, if I knew for sure the Vale was coming I'd let Jon know they were her but that he had no tactical command over what they will be doing. He screwed up his battle plans, ignored her advice and would've gotten team Jon slaughtered to the man. Chances are good had he had the Vale he would've done the same.

We're saying what would I do, aren't we, in my case Jon doesn't fuck up by going #yolo on the enemy like an idiot so you can't really hold that on me, can you?

And that's not 'turning into Ramsey' (wonder if you watch the show if you're comparing that with Ramsey's characteristics), that's more like Doran Martell who locked up his lil' niece in the tower (books) for the shit that she pulled off, like (show) Sansa and her treason - yes, in my eyes that is treason, especially if I come from the battle, all bloodied where my friends died, including the last of the giants. All those sacrifices, for her, for their family, all those deaths that could (in large number) be prevented... Oh, I'd be pissed and I doubt any other sane being wouldn't be.

Bolded - I can't believe you are serious. If you think that's being smart and cunning... I guess we'll have to agree to disagree and leave it at that because there can never be middle grounds between us in this particular issue. Other than that I have a hard time understanding what are you trying to say at times, given you're from the states you could really do better with your language.

[TwiceBorn]

I'd ambush Ramsey the day before battle (during parley).

With supreme stealth wildling rangers it would be the best option. There is no dishonor in this since Boltons took part in Red Wedding. In my opinion it's OK to kill Boltons and Freys anyway you like or anyway you can. Ramsey made one mistake - wanted to brag. Jon "the boy" and "knows it all but won't tell" Sansa wasted that chance.

Once the battle started it would be better to send some cavalry to fetch Rickon and use archers to cover them (in case of counter attack).

At very least Jon could have order Davos to assume command and NOT to follow him. Clearly this is what he expected, but after a talk with Mel he should have known better.

[TheKitttenGuard]

I will stay on my horse and watch Rickon run across to be shot down by Ramsey.

If by some luck he gets out of range then hope Ramsey send the cavalry to run him down and provide archer support.  Send someone out for Rickon and hope he can get him safety and engage the cavalry to repel.

Hold off and hope Ramsey is now flustered to send his main forces.

Hold of you can and wonder what is that horn.

[jrod]

1 hour ago, TwiceBorn said:

I'd ambush Ramsey the day before battle (during parley).

With supreme stealth wildling rangers it would be the best option. There is no dishonor in this since Boltons took part in Red Wedding. In my opinion it's OK to kill Boltons and Freys anyway you like or anyway you can. Ramsey made one mistake - wanted to brag. Jon "the boy" and "knows it all but won't tell" Sansa wasted that chance.

Once the battle started it would be better to send some cavalry to fetch Rickon and use archers to cover them (in case of counter attack).

At very least Jon could have order Davos to assume command and NOT to follow him. Clearly this is what he expected, but after a talk with Mel he should have known better.

Disagree with the whole ambush thing.  I don't think that is something a "Stark" would ever do.  They have obviously agreed to meet under truce before the battle.  It would completely dishonor Jon if he betrayed that truce and ambushed and killed Ramsey.  Doesn't matter about the Red Wedding.

I do agree I would have told Davos to lead the attack and not follow me.  But he just reacted and wasn't thinking clearly, obviously.  

[Roboginger]

On 6/22/2016 at 2:10 AM, tinka10 said:

Listen to what? She told him nothing of use.

I would like to say I would do something differently, but honestly, I would most likely do the exact same thing as Jon. 

^

She whinned a bit? but that is not a strategy.

[Roboginger]

On 6/22/2016 at 2:14 AM, PetyrPunkinhead said:

Sansa: Don't do what Ramsay wants you to do. he's manipulative and smarter than both of us. Just don't do whatever it is he wants you to do.

Jon: You got it sis!

Ramsay: Come charge me, bastard.

Jon: Okay! *derp*

Don't get me wrong, his flaw makes him more relateable and it made for same damn good drama and tension for that battle, but yeah, "if I were Jon," I'd listen to Sansa and stick with the plan I developed the night before.

this has zero to do with the outcome of the battle.

Running out like there was stupid and was playing into Ramsay's game and it almost lead to him dying but did not change the outcome what so ever Sansa did not offer advise she just complained and whinned.

[Roboginger]

The blind love of Sansa is strong recently.

[Survivor92]

Jon should've brought at least half of his cavalry force with him (and they should've followed him when he ran off by himself, what kind of soldier lets his lord attack alone???).

Then either try to get to Rickon and protect him or stay just out of archery range, depending on how fast you can get there. It'd be useful if Ghost would exist in the show battle, I imagine he can get to Rickon quite soon.

As for the battle plan, they seemed to rely heavily on Ramsay attacking their position which was unlikely to happen (Ramsay had the high ground). Digging trenches is nice but they really should've taken up position next to the forest, get a flanking force in place (including WunWun! and give him a friggin' weapon) and try to make their army appear even weaker than it actually is. Hide your cavalry, keep the Wildlings on the front ranks to hide the more heavily armored units, et cetera. That way, I could see Ramsay being bold enough to attack (like he did with Stannis). Once he's committed, you flank him from the forest with cavalry + WunWun.

[TheKitttenGuard]

53 minutes ago, Roboginger said:

The blind love of Sansa is strong recently.

The blind love of Jon is outright is down right nauseating. 

"Think he is going to fall into your trap he won't, he is the one that lays traps."

That is Sansa best advice and it is dismissed by Jon.

It is ignored by all the posts on how they will use the Vale forces to set a trap.

[watcher of the night]

30 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

The blind love of Jon is outright is down right nauseating. 

"Think he is going to fall into your trap he won't, he is the one that lays traps."

That is Sansa best advice and it is dismissed by Jon.

It is also ignore by all the posts on how they will use the Vale forces in a trap.

Then go and read somewhere else.

It is mindbogling how on earth could anyone defend Sansa. It is simply a matter of trust and Sansa had none to Jon.

The adivice she gave was the most general possible. She should have gave details after all "she knew Ramsay better than eanyone else".

Also she gave no advice about battle tactics, in fact she held back a crucial intel that could have saved hundreds of lives.

 

[Roboginger]

43 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

The blind love of Jon is outright is down right nauseating. 

"Think he is going to fall into your trap he won't, he is the one that lays traps."

That is Sansa best advice and it is dismissed by Jon.

It is ignored by all the posts on how they will use the Vale forces to set a trap.

If he had the information he could have planned for it but some emotional little girl decided she wanted to be petty.

[TheKitttenGuard]

21 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

Then go and read somewhere else.

It is mindbogling how on earth could anyone defend Sansa. It is simply a matter of trust and Sansa had none to Jon.

The adivice she gave was the most general possible. She should have gave details after all "she knew Ramsay better than eanyone else".

Also she gave no advice about battle tactics, in fact she held back a crucial intel that could have saved hundreds of lives.

 

 

16 minutes ago, Roboginger said:

If he had the information he could have planned for it but some emotional little girl decided she wanted to be petty.

Jon is not going to get Ramsey to fall for a trap.  Regardless what information he has any trap Jon plan will be unsuccessful.

Ramsey is simply better then Jon at laying traps and figuring them out.  

People want to work under that Jon will be able to out trick Ramsey and that is not the case.

Jon showed his misread Ramsey at the Parley when he dismisses Sansa's advice with saying "He's overconfident".

[watcher of the night]

55 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

 

Jon is not going to get Ramsey to fall for a trap.  Regardless what information he has any trap Jon plan will be unsuccessful.

Ramsey is simply better then Jon at laying traps and figuring them out.  

People want to work under that Jon will be able to out trick Ramsey and that is not the case.

Jon showed his misread Ramsey at the Parley when he dismisses Sansa's advice with saying "He's overconfident".

It is all fine but you are not responding to the critique.

[TheKitttenGuard]

13 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

It is all fine but you are not responding to the critique.

Why should Sansa offer battle tactics advice? She has no military training.  Why will Sansa try offer a plan for a trap when she knows Ramsey will figure it out?

There is a tough problem here that the one with military training is not suited to go against Ramsey.

Jon has military training and is one that can Rally and lead men.  It is clear though that he will be unable to outwit Ramsey for this is not about Jon and Ramsey.

 

 

[watcher of the night]

13 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

Why should Sansa offer battle tactics advice? She has no military training.  Why will Sansa try offer a plan for a trap when she knows Ramsey will figure it out?

There is a tough problem here that the one with military training is not suited to go against Ramsey.

Jon has military training and is one that can Rally and lead men.  It is clear though that he will be unable to outwit Ramsey for this is not about Jon and Ramsey.

 

 

You either don't understand it or don't want to understand it.

No one says that Sansa should have given detailed military plan to Jon. But she should have told the info she had and let Jon and co. decide what to do with it.

Also she should have given a more detailed advice on Ramsay after all "she knows Ramsay better than anyone else". He could have prepared Jon what kind of traps to expect or tell Jon how Ramsay manipulates people. If she expected Ramsy to manipulate Jon with Rickon then she should have told that. "Hey, Jon Ramsay might try to lure you out with rickon, don't  fall for that." But she said none of that, she gave the most general, most vague advice. She also could have told it before (yes, without being explicitely asked!) during the meeting, she could have even warned Davos and Tormund: "Hey guys don't let Jon do this or that , you know he is passonate about Rickon." etc. Yet again she said none of it.

All in all, she had info both on military matters (huge friendly force is on the way) and psyhological matters (how Ramsay works) yet she decided to withold both info.

[TheKitttenGuard]

4 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

You either don't understand it or don't want to understand it.

No one says that Sansa should have given detailed military plan to Jon. But she should have told the info she had and let Jon and co. decide what to do with it.

Also she should have given a more detailed advice on Ramsay after all "she knows Ramsay better than anyone else". He could have prepared Jon what kind of traps to expect or tell Jon how Ramsay manipulates people. If she expected Ramsy to manipulate Jon with Rickon then she should have told that. "Hey, Jon Ramsay might try to lure you out with rickon, don't  fall for that." But she said none of that, she gave the most general, most vague advice. She also could have told it before (yes, without being explicitely asked!) during the meeting, she could have even warned Davos and Tormund: "Hey guys don't let Jon do this or that , you know he is passonate about Rickon." etc. Yet again she said none of it.

All in all, she had info both on military matters (huge friendly force is on the way) and psyhological matters (how Ramsay works) yet she decided to withold both info.

I do not think will set a trap for Ramsey or be able to foil Ramsey's trap without falling into another.

You keep wanting Jon to figure it out when he cannot.

If Jon can not figure out Rickon is going to be use to goad him then he really does know nothing.

 

[Roboginger]

44 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

Why should Sansa offer battle tactics advice? She has no military training.  Why will Sansa try offer a plan for a trap when she knows Ramsey will figure it out?

There is a tough problem here that the one with military training is not suited to go against Ramsey.

Jon has military training and is one that can Rally and lead men.  It is clear though that he will be unable to outwit Ramsey for this is not about Jon and Ramsey.

 

 

fact is she had valuable information and withheld because is Littlefingers puppet.

[Roboginger]

38 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

You either don't understand it or don't want to understand it.

No one says that Sansa should have given detailed military plan to Jon. But she should have told the info she had and let Jon and co. decide what to do with it.

Also she should have given a more detailed advice on Ramsay after all "she knows Ramsay better than anyone else". He could have prepared Jon what kind of traps to expect or tell Jon how Ramsay manipulates people. If she expected Ramsy to manipulate Jon with Rickon then she should have told that. "Hey, Jon Ramsay might try to lure you out with rickon, don't  fall for that." But she said none of that, she gave the most general, most vague advice. She also could have told it before (yes, without being explicitely asked!) during the meeting, she could have even warned Davos and Tormund: "Hey guys don't let Jon do this or that , you know he is passonate about Rickon." etc. Yet again she said none of it.

All in all, she had info both on military matters (huge friendly force is on the way) and psyhological matters (how Ramsay works) yet she decided to withold both info.

This person gets it. ^

[TheKitttenGuard]

17 minutes ago, Roboginger said:

fact is she had valuable information and withheld because is Littlefingers puppet.

Her information would of been useless if Ramsey sniffed it out because Jon is inexperience at laying traps.

People so want Jon to be on the one to best Ramsey when he simply cannot.