What would you do differently as Jon Snow

[OldGimletEye]

24 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

Until Ramsey committed the bulk of his forces the Vale arrival will not of had the impact it had. I take it would of been nice that the timing would of been more perfect and occur just as the double envelop is complete.  That is still an if and will have a risk of Ramsey figuring it out.

Certainly, you would want Ramsay to commit all his forces. Thing is though, if your outnumbered you don't want to be fighting all of Ramsay's forces for very long.

As a commander, you would know, in this kind of operation, timing is everything. You are going to want to have a pretty good estimate about when the Vale forces will arrive. If you wait too long, then Ramsay's forces are not committed sufficiently, meaning the surprise attack won't be a decisive. On the other hand, if you start too early, there is the chance Ramsay will defeat your forces and then wheel around to face the Vale Army.

This kind of operation of joining two separate forces at the right moment is a difficult operation to pull off. Timing and panning is key. 

The first thing a reasonable commander does when learning that Vale forces might be in the area is send scouts to find their exact location.

And by the way, how did Sandra do her planning to make sure the Vale forces would arrive before the battle was over? Is she like Sandra Moltke now?

[TheKitttenGuard]

2 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Certainly, you would want Ramsay to commit all his forces. Thing is though, if your outnumbered you don't want to be fighting all of Ramsay's forces for very long.

As a commander, you would know, in this kind of operation, timing is everything. You are going to want to have a pretty good estimate about when the Vale forces will arrive. If you wait too long, then Ramsay's forces are not committed sufficiently, meaning the surprise attack won't be a decisive. On the other hand, if you start too early, there is the chance Ramsay will defeat your forces and then wheel around to face the Vale Army.

This kind of operation of joining two separate forces at the right moment is a difficult operation to pull off. Timing and panning is key. 

The first thing a reasonable commander does when learning that Vale forces might be in the area is send scouts to find their exact location.

Jon will not be able to plan a trap for Ramsey though.  Any trap Jon will planned will be foiled by Ramsey.  Jon does not have the experience that Ramsey does and Jon is not in the right state of mind that is needed for a trap to be planned. 

It is not Jon's trap to plan.

 

[OldGimletEye]

22 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

Jon will not be able to plan a trap for Ramsey though.  Any trap Jon will planned will be foiled by Ramsey.  Jon does not have the experience that Ramsey does and Jon is not in the right state of mind that is needed for a trap to be planned. 

It is not Jon's trap to plan.

 

Right, it doesn't matter because no matter what Jon does he'll fall for any trap Ramsay sets. Okay, then. Evidently, Jon is destined to fuck up no matter what.  No amount of meticulous planning by Jon will make a difference, evidently. That is apparently the entire basis of this argument.

As for Ramsay's battle experience. You mean the guy that let a huge army creep up on him. Does he have something against recon or something? What did recon ever do to him?

And if Ramsay would have been a truly gifted commander, he'd have destroyed both armies piecemeal, before they had any chance to unite.

And why isn't Jon's trap to plan? He is in command of the wildling forces. It will be him and the wildlings who will act as bait. It's Jon's and the Wildling's asses who will be in the lurch if shit goes south. 

At the very least, Jon should have some idea of when to start deploying his troops. If he knows that the Vale forces are fairly far away, then he knows he needs to delay the very deployment of his troops by a bit, to the extent practicable.

And how does Sansa know when Jon will start his attack? And how does she know how far away the Vale forces exactly are or have a good estimate of when their arrival can be expected. How does she know whether the Vale forces are likely to make it on time before Jon and his Wildlings are crushed? The answer is she doesn't. This kind information is what you would want to know before trying to pull off this kind operation.

I think the reality based community understands that this kind operation has a much better chance of working when a some planning is involved. And that no planning is likely to devolve into a disorganized goat rope.

[TheKitttenGuard]

Just now, OldGimletEye said:

Right, it doesn't matter because no matter what Jon does he'll fall for any trap Ramsay sets. Okay, then. Evidently, Jon is destined to fuck up no matter what. That is apparently the entire basis of this argument.

As for Ramsay's battle experience. You mean the guy that let a huge army creep up on him. Does he have something against recon or something? What did recon ever do to him?

And if Ramsay would have been a truly gifted commander, he'd have destroyed both armies piecemeal, before they had any chance to unite.

And why isn't Jon's trap to plan? He is in command of the wildling forces. It will be him and the wildlings who will act as bait. It's Jon's and the Wildling's asses who will be in the lurch if shit goes south. 

At the very least, Jon should have some idea of when to start deploying his troops. If he knows that the Vale forces are fairly far away, then he knows he needs to delay the very deployment of his troops by a bit, to the extent practicable.

And how does Sansa know when Jon will start his attack? And how does she know how far away the Vale forces exactly are or have a good estimate of when their arrival can be expected. The answer is she doesn't. This kind information is what you would want to know before trying to pull off this kind operation.

I think the reality based community understands that this kind operation has a much better chance of working when a some planning is involved. And that no planning is likely to devolve into a disorganized goat rope.

It is not Jon to plan for the fight is not Jon and Ramsey but Sansa and Ramsey. 

No, Sansa does not know a lot because she determine she cannot know a lot for Ramsey to be trapped.  Her time with Ramsey taught her that the you cannot plan him into a trap.  Only the real unexpected will do that.

  Ramsey been presented on the show he is one that always is one step ahead of people.  The only times he get any sort of flustered is when something unexpected happen to him. 

Jon is not experience with Ramsey and his current state makes him very suspectable to Ramsey's tactics especially the psychology ones.

Jon may have to be the one to do battle with Ramsey but it is not his fight.

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, TheKitttenGuard said:

It is not Jon to plan for the fight is not Jon and Ramsey but Sansa and Ramsey. 

No, Sansa does not know a lot because she determine she cannot know a lot for Ramsey to be trapped.  Her time with Ramsey taught her that the you cannot plan him into a trap.  Only the real unexpected will do that.

 

Well fuck then. I guess Jon's op order the night before should have read:

"Dear troops, don't bother getting into formation. Mill about the general area in a gaggle fuck. Smoke some cigarettes and play grab ass. The plan here is do something that Ramsay will really not expect."

Signed

Jon Snow.

4 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

Jon may have to be the one to do battle with Ramsey but it is not his fight.

Horseshit. Jon and the men who trust him will be doing the fighting and dying. I'd say it is very much their fight. Plus there is the fact that Sansa convinced Jon to make it his fight.

[TheKitttenGuard]

35 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Well fuck then. I guess Jon's op order the night before should have read:

"Dear troops, don't bother getting into formation. Mill about the general area in a gaggle fuck. Smoke some cigarettes and play grab ass. The plan here is do something that Ramsay will really not expect."

Signed

Jon Snow.

Horseshit. Jon and the men who trust him will be doing the fighting and dying. I'd say it is very much their fight. Plus there is the fact that Sansa convinced Jon to make it his fight.

You may not like that this particular situtation it is not for Jon to particularly figure out and win but it is the case.

No Jon was not gung-ho of going after Ramsey and reclaim Winterfell.  He also stated he will stay with Sansa, and Ramsey does want her back.

Sansa convinced Jon to fight Ramsey still does mean it is now Jon's to fight.

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, TheKitttenGuard said:

You may not like that this particular situtation it is not for Jon to particularly figure out and win but it is the case.

No Jon was not gung-ho of going after Ramsey and reclaim Winterfell.  He also stated he will stay with Sansa, and Ramsey does want her back.

Sansa convinced Jon to fight Ramsey still does mean it is now Jon's to fight.

Pure nonsense. Jon agreed to fight. He agreed to put his good name to get men to fight for him. It was very much his fight. 

[TheKitttenGuard]

15 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Pure nonsense. Jon agreed to fight. He agreed to put his good name to get men to fight for him. It was very much his fight. 

No it is nonsense.

It is just accepting that this was a situtation that Jon could not win or figure out.

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, TheKitttenGuard said:

No it is nonsense.

It is just accepting that this was a situtation that Jon could not win or figure out.

No, I don't accept the idea that it was pre-ordained for Jon to lose.  Nor do I accept that it was pre-ordained for the battle to go down as exactly as it did. Even if Jon had delayed deployment of his soldiers for 10 minutes, that would have probably saved lives.

And saying that Jon couldn't figure out the implications of a Vale force arriving into the area is nonsense. Jon may have lost his head during the battle, but his pre-battle planning seem adequate enough.

And saying that Jon would have pissed away all advantages of a Vale force arriving is too nonsense.

 

[LordPathera]

11 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

No it is nonsense.

It is just accepting that this was a situtation that Jon could not win or figure out.

Because of bad writing and plot contrivance. Not because Jon is incapable.

[TheKitttenGuard]

1 minute ago, OldGimletEye said:

No, I don't accept the idea that it was pre-ordained for Jon to lose.  Nor do I accept that it was pre-ordained for the battle to go down as exactly as it did. Even if Jon had delayed deployment of his soldiers for 10 minutes, that would have probably saved lives.

And saying that Jon couldn't figure out the implications of a Vale force arriving into the area is nonsense. Jon may have lost his head during the battle, but his pre-battle planning seem adequate enough.

And saying that Jon would have pissed away all advantages of a Vale force arriving is too nonsense.

 

Jon pre-battle planning means nothing if he cannot keep his emotions in check and he cannot. 

People want to constantly find a way for Jon is going to win and just do not want to accept that he is unable to in this case.

[TheKitttenGuard]

Just now, LordPathera said:

Because of bad writing and plot contrivance. Not because Jon is incapable.

Well that will play to the crowds I am sure.

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, TheKitttenGuard said:

Jon pre-battle planning means nothing if he cannot keep his emotions in check and he cannot. 

People want to constantly find a way for Jon is going to win and just do not want to accept that he is unable to in this case.

Why is he unable to win if he knows the Vale forces are coming?  Huh? Maybe, he still falls for Ramsay's Rickon ruse. But, how does that cause him to throw the entire batter, just because he knows the Vale forces are coming.

And like I said here or earlier supposing the Jon delays deployment of his troops just by 20 minutes because he knows the Vale is coming. How many lives get saved in that case?

[TheKitttenGuard]

22 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Why is he unable to win if he knows the Vale forces are coming?  Huh? Maybe, he still falls for Ramsay's Rickon ruse. But, how does that cause him to throw the entire batter, just because he knows the Vale forces are coming.

And like I said here or earlier supposing the Jon delays deployment of his troops just by 20 minutes because he knows the Vale is coming. How many lives get saved in that case?

As Sansa told Jon that you cannot plan to trap Ramsey.

Sansa may of been able to tell Jon if he did not show he misread Ramsey when he said that Ramsey was overconfident. 

Maybe in the end Jon would of done the same.

Jon thought he was the one fighting Ramsey when he was not.

[OldGimletEye]

31 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

As Sansa told Jon that you cannot plan to trap Ramsey.

Yeah, right LOL. Except for of course, getting a huge army through the Neck and marching it several miles in Ramsay's rear and he fucking knows nothing about it.

And if the show is saying that the way you trap somebody in some kind of military maneuver is by not planning, but relying on some kind of wishful thinking and a general disorderly mess, then the show is full of shit.

And if Sansa is saying here that by Jon knowing about the incoming Vale forces, Ramsay would be able to evade the trap, then she too is full of it.

And Sansa admits she has no experienced in military matters. So who is she to be the ultimate expert in Ramsay's tactical and command abilities?

 

31 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

Sansa may of been able to tell Jon if he did not show he misread Ramsey when he said that Ramsey was overconfident. 

Huh?

31 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

Jon thought he was the one fighting Ramsey when he was not.

Uh, but he did fight Ramsay's forces. And planned to fight Ramsay's forces. And planned to commit his people against Ramsay.

Saying that Jon wasn't fighting Ramsay is utter horseshit.

ETA:

Also, let's say Jon believes Sansa's statement that Ramsay won't fall into his trap.  Well what does this mean for Jon? Well, clearly it means that Ramsay will not attack Jon's strong defensive position. So Jon does what here? And what does Sansa advise? Does she advise that Jon make a strategic withdrawal here? Well that would be nonsense of Sansa if she expects the Vale forces are in the area. Jon might think there is no hope of winning the battle if he has to go on the tactical offensive, and has no knowledge of the Vale forces. On the other hand, if he knows that the Vale forces are coming, then he knows he can go on the tactical offensive if necessary to pin Ramsay's force down.

 

[TheKitttenGuard]

3 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Yeah, right LOL. Except for of course, getting a huge army through the Neck and marching it several miles in Ramsay's rear and he fucking knows nothing about it.

And if the show is saying that the way you trap somebody in some kind of military maneuver is by not planning, but relying on some kind of wishful thinking and a general disorderly mess, then the show is full of shit.

And if Sansa is saying here that by Jon knowing about the incoming Vale forces, Ramsay would be able to evade the trap, then she too is full of it.

Huh?

Uh, but he did fight Ramsay's forces. Saying that Jon wasn't fighting Ramsay is utter horseshit.

It is your projective to want to view this as blinding plot holes.  I will not for some larger stories are going on and I can be at peace with how can fill in some details.

When Sansa told Jon that Ramsey will not fall a trap Jon plan he dismissed by stating Ramsey was overconfident and Jon was wrong and does not understand Ramsey.

Yes he is able to get an army and lead men.  He also has military training that Sansa does not have.  Sansa does know how to beat Ramsey and everyone wants her to turn it to Jon though he does not understand Ramsey.

[Lord Freddy Blackfyre]

I'm so ready for Sansa to die, it would be my favorite episode in the whole serie.

[OldGimletEye]

13 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

When Sansa told Jon that Ramsey will not fall a trap Jon plan he dismissed by stating Ramsey was overconfident and Jon was wrong and does not understand Ramsey.

So Sansa believes that Ramsey will not attack Jon's defensive position? Her advice then is what? For Jon to go on the tactical offensive here? Or for Jon to make a complete withdraw from the battle field? If it's the latter, then isn't that complete fuckin nonsense she knows the Vale forces are in the area? And why in her opinion would going on the tactical offensive be better.

And actually, Jon could go on the tactical offensive if he had to, to pin down Ramsay's forces, if he knew about the Vale troops. But, Sansa didn't tell him about that

 

13 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

Sansa does know how to beat Ramsey and everyone wants her to turn it to Jon though he does not understand Ramsey.

And how is that exactly? Just hoping the Vale forces will arrive in time to save Jon's army?  And why wouldn't Jon understand that a surprise attack into Ramsay's troops would bring about his defeat? Of course he would. Even if he doesn't understand Ramsay as well as Sansa.

[TheKitttenGuard]

13 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

So Sansa believes that Ramsey will not attack Jon's defensive position? Her advice then is what? For Jon to go on the tactical offensive here? Or for Jon to make a complete withdraw from the battle field? If it's the latter, then isn't that complete fuckin nonsense she knows the Vale forces are in the area?

 

And how is that exactly? Just hoping the Vale forces will arrive in time to save Jon's army?  And why wouldn't Jon understand that a surprise attack into Ramsay's troops bring about his defeat? Of course he would. Even if he doesn't understand Ramsay as well as Sansa.

Jon is the military mind and be working to get what she says into a military matter.  Jon making an acknowledge that his trap part just not going to work could of shown an openness to what she said. Instead Jon told Sansa that he knew who Ramsey is and he is wrong.

In the end Jon may well of decided that he will be leading men into a Green Fork situtation.

Yes Sansa may of decided the best action is to send a letter without knowing because it was the best way to beat Ramsey because he will not fall for a planned trap. 

[OldGimletEye]

20 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

Jon is the military mind and be working to get what she says into a military matter.  Jon making an acknowledge that his trap part just not going to work could of shown an openness to what she said. Instead Jon told Sansa that he knew who Ramsey is and he is wrong.

Okay, then Jon accepts that Sansa is right. And since there is no hope of really going on the tactical offense against Ramsay either, Jon decides to withdraw. He tells Sansa he is going to withdraw and Sansa says nothing, even though she knows Vale forces might be in the area. Makes perfect sense.

 

20 minutes ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

Yes Sansa may of decided the best action is to send a letter without knowing because it was the best way to beat Ramsey because he will not fall for a planned trap. 

Except for when it's Sansa's planned trapped evidently. Or Little Finger's planned trapped.

If the idea here is that the best way to defeat Ramsay militarily is through a disorganized, unplanned, and uncoordinated gaggle fuck, then really the show has truly gone of the rails here. What a bunch of frickin nonsense.