Is there a military solution to the WW doom?

[DrewStark]

Lets just say Dany's dragons will torch all the wights. Meanwhile Jon, the North and whoever has rallied to the cause take on the 13 WW (assuming that is the correct number) and the Knight King with Valyrian steel blades and Dragonglass.

[Garse Ironjade Janacek]

1 hour ago, Jarl Halstein said:

Holy shit. You've been taking sociology classes I bet.

"We must bridge the CULTURAL GAP between our two cultures. Yours better than mine of course. Please tell me more about your exciting culture and your hopes and dreams, I'm sure my admiration will make you like me!"

"Our culture is about killing you right now. My hope is killing you right now. My dream is to kill you all. We are the ultimate enemy that overshadows all the petty concerns you humans have been fighting each other over, a stark contrast to everything you have ever seen before. We are the devouring fire, the plague, the eternal darkness. How is that not clear to you?"

"But you can make conversation at least. That's a start!"

"No, this is all a hallucination in your mind while I am strangling you."

*gurgle gurgle, choke*

Very clever.  

Let's talk about Martin.

Consider Martin's SciFi work for a second...He likes cultural mismatch stories.  He likes evil characters that are hard to find, he likes gray characters, not black and white ones.  Martin believes there is the capacity for good and evil in all men, he says it in interviews all the time.  

Perhaps you are right, and the NK and his WW are nothing but 2D evil trolls....but I doubt it.  He openly dismisses the use of scary monsters in black armor as villains. So, maybe the guy changed his mind.  Maybe he suddenly believes in absolute, clear bad guys with no depth or sympathies.  Bad guys with a clear, pure evil, destroy humanity purpose.  

Even if that stylistic change is giving us pure evil WW there is another thing to consider.  

Do we really think the pacifist, conscientious objector to the Vietnam War is gonna make humanity have a military solution to it's doom so that another Monarch can rule after years of war and death?  I just don't see it.

[JMJ]

24 minutes ago, Garse Ironjade Janacek said:

Very clever.  

Let's talk about Martin.

Consider Martin's SciFi work for a second...He likes cultural mismatch stories.  He likes evil characters that are hard to find, he likes gray characters, not black and white ones.  Martin believes there is the capacity for good and evil in all men, he says it in interviews all the time.  

Perhaps you are right, and the NK and his WW are nothing but 2D evil trolls....but I doubt it.  He openly dismisses the use of scary monsters in black armor as villains. So, maybe the guy changed his mind.  Maybe he suddenly believes in absolute, clear bad guys with no depth or sympathies.  Bad guys with a clear, pure evil, destroy humanity purpose.  

Even if that stylistic change is giving us pure evil WW there is another thing to consider.  

Do we really think the pacifist, conscientious objector to the Vietnam War is gonna make humanity have a military solution to it's doom so that another Monarch can rule after years of war and death?  I just don't see it.

This I agree with. The most perplexing part of all of ASOIAF to me has always been that the Others, unlike any other main players in the entire series, have not been fleshed out at all. We don't understand at all anything about their thinking, their goals, motivation, etc. Sure, we learned this season that the Others apparently were created by the CotF to kill humans; but at this point, it seems their origin is only marginally helpful in understanding them. Let's say they succeed and plunge Westeros into the Long Night/Winter. What do they get out of that? Is it just survival of their "species", nothing more than any animal or even bacteria are trying to do? It just seems to me GRRM would not have created such a one-dimensional set of characters among all the richly fleshed out characters he's created. Otherwise, the Others would be nothing more than Westeros' version of Orcs, dementors, or such.

[Greg B]

58 minutes ago, Garse Ironjade Janacek said:

Very clever.  

Let's talk about Martin.

Consider Martin's SciFi work for a second...He likes cultural mismatch stories.  He likes evil characters that are hard to find, he likes gray characters, not black and white ones.  Martin believes there is the capacity for good and evil in all men, he says it in interviews all the time.  

Perhaps you are right, and the NK and his WW are nothing but 2D evil trolls....but I doubt it.  He openly dismisses the use of scary monsters in black armor as villains. So, maybe the guy changed his mind.  Maybe he suddenly believes in absolute, clear bad guys with no depth or sympathies.  Bad guys with a clear, pure evil, destroy humanity purpose.

"The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call 'life.'" (From Martin's original synopsis, bolded for emphasis)

That seems to have been his original conception. So. I think you're right to point to his SF work, but at best, I think we get aliens incompatible with "everything that we would call life," and not just a misunderstood culture. Of course, as you say, maybe the guy changed his mind.

 

 

[Dragon_Rider]

9 minutes ago, Greg B said:

"The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call 'life.'" (From Martin's original synopsis, bolded for emphasis)

That seems to have been his original conception. So. I think you're right to point to his SF work, but at best, I think we get aliens incompatible with "everything that we would call life," and not just a misunderstood culture. Of course, as you say, maybe the guy changed his mind.

 

 

The Others are a weapon created the COTF.  However, they are made from living humans, so it's quite likely they posses some level of consciousness and will, and are not simply Terminator robots meant to eliminate all human kind.

The "Night King" in particular shows some measure of cognition and planning. His eyes are not the empty ones of the Wights. He seems to have a purpose in his actions.

I really hope they do have a plan and a purpose and a motivation. Otherwise, they make for a rather conventional and boring villain.

[tmug]

On 6/25/2016 at 11:08 AM, Quyen Thuy Tran said:

Dragon glass and varilyan steel can't fight against the zombie army. They need fire.

Well if Cersei doesn't manage to use it all up, they have a huge stash of wildfire to use if need be.

[Greg B]

2 minutes ago, Dragon_Rider said:

The Others are a weapon created the COTF.  However, they are made from living humans, so it's quite likely they posses some level of consciousness and will, and are not simply Terminator robots meant to eliminate all human kind.

I really hope they do have a plan and a purpose and a motivation. Otherwise, they make for a rather conventional and boring villain.

Well, they do have a plan, purpose and motivation: bring down the "endless night" (also from the synopsis) that incidentally extinguishes everything we would call "life." They were built for the Long Night, so perhaps "bringing the storm" is their version of terraforming. Still working with the SF tropes, here. Or maybe it's more of a Lovecraftian conception of aliens, and their motivations are incomprehensible to humans (but still with the "extinguishing life" bit). Or maybe Martin will come up with a whole new idea for an alien species that's incompatible with human life. Either way, you maybe can't sign a peace treaty with them. (Or maybe you can -- again, maybe Martin changed his mind!)

[tmug]

7 minutes ago, Dragon_Rider said:

The Others are a weapon created the COTF.  However, they are made from living humans, so it's quite likely they posses some level of consciousness and will, and are not simply Terminator robots meant to eliminate all human kind.

The "Night King" in particular shows some measure of cognition and planning. His eyes are not the empty ones of the Wights. He seems to have a purpose in his actions.

I really hope they do have a plan and a purpose and a motivation. Otherwise, they make for a rather conventional and boring villain.

In other words, the CotF basically made slave warriors and when their "slaves" broke free they were like "oh shit, what do we do now?"

When you look at it that way, maybe you can empathize with these "evil" creatures as they are not as black or white as most villains. They are just rebelling against their "masters" to never be used by anyone ever again. 

[Garse Ironjade Janacek]

41 minutes ago, tmug said:

In other words, the CotF basically made slave warriors and when their "slaves" broke free they were like "oh shit, what do we do now?"

When you look at it that way, maybe you can empathize with these "evil" creatures as they are not as black or white as most villains. They are just rebelling against their "masters" to never be used by anyone ever again. 

In the 1000 worlds, humanity made war on the Hruanguns (im sure I am butchering the spelling) who were an insect hive mind alien race.  They had a Heavy Gravity warrior, Shock troop slave race called the Hruun, who lived in peace with humans after the war ended.  The Hruun turned on their masters ending the war decisively for humanity, incidentally.

This doesn't necessarily mean for sure the WW are gonna act the same, but its possible these weaponized humans could.  Did anyone notice that the NK didn't do anything but mark Bran?  Maybe it was so he could follow him, sure, but that was the ONLY time we learned anything about the WW origins and possible motivations.

[Yin & Yang]

I've always imagined that they would discover that Valyrian steel is forged by Dragon fire as opposed to regular steel being forged by regular fire.

There was a quote someone told me years ago that kind of relates to this: "the strongest steel is forged in the hottest fire".

It would actually be quite ironic if after all this time trying to win the iron throne, it ended up being melted down with Dragon fire to forge Valyrian steel weapons and armour (especially in the book where the iron throne is HUGE and made up of thousands of swords).

 

[Tywin Tytosson]

On 6/24/2016 at 0:04 PM, Garse Ironjade Janacek said:

I do not think that mankind can defeat the WW with swords, or even dragons.  I believe all efforts to do so will escalate the conflict and it will just get far worse for humanity.  Remember, George RR Martin is a huge pacifist, and has written plenty of stories where an anti-war message is the central theme.

So....

How does mankind begin the negotiations with the Night's King to find a peace both sides can live with?  Surely the CotF are able to communicate with the WW.  It is entirely possible that the CotF are still using the WW as a way to kill/defeat humanity, but even if they are not, humans will survive the WW most effectively by bridging the cultural gap that exists between the two cultures. 

Other than the CotF, the ability to warg, or have green dreams and visions seems like a likely key to beginning discussions with these strange, evil seeming creatures.  They do not seem to possess language skills.  I therefore pose the following candidates for beginning negotiations on behalf of humanity.

Bran could be the key, but he is already being heavily influenced by the CotF.  There is no reason to trust or believe that Benjen is still Benjen Stark...so Bran may be compromised to a point where he cannot help.  On the other hand, he does seem to have the most developed ability at this point.

Robin Arryn could be a conduit as well.  He has shown he has "gifts" too....so much so that he must be drugged to avoid seizures in the book. 

Meera Reed seems to lack her brother's gifts, but perhaps she has some ability, and she is in a good location to help or at least help/rescue/counsel Bran.

Arya (book version especially) seems to possess some telepathy and warging ability.  She is headed north now.  Her training over two seasons as a killer seem to be counterproductive to this mission.

Jon Snow, who knows the WW best of any man living, and has at least limited warging, and is in a perfect position to do so.  He also has learned how horrible and destructive war is firsthand.  In fact, he is a reanimated corpse himself!

 

 

 

Umm...there are no negotiations to be had.  the Night King and the Walkers are a 'force of nature'.    their purpose is to defeat and maybe destroy Men (humans).  and anybody who has allied with them.  they will not stop until the last human is dead.  the fight against them is a fight to death.

 the only race with any possibility of 'negotiating' was the CotF.  And they either failed or could not negotiate either.  Once the CotF negotiated a peace with the First Men, they too became Enemies of the WW.  And their creation turned upon them.

[Jedi Renee]

There could be more children of the Forrest in hiding someplace. they may not appear in the show though. 

[Jedi Renee]

On 29/06/2016 at 11:30 AM, DrewStark said:

Lets just say Dany's dragons will torch all the wights. Meanwhile Jon, the North and whoever has rallied to the cause take on the 13 WW (assuming that is the correct number) and the Knight King with Valyrian steel blades and Dragonglass.

Only 13? Do u have source for that?

On 29/06/2016 at 2:16 PM, tmug said:

Well if Cersei doesn't manage to use it all up, they have a huge stash of wildfire to use if need be.

Yes but I wonder if it's difficult to transport 

[Garse Ironjade Janacek]

On 6/29/2016 at 2:27 AM, Thror Baratheon said:

Umm...there are no negotiations to be had.  the Night King and the Walkers are a 'force of nature'.    their purpose is to defeat and maybe destroy Men (humans).  and anybody who has allied with them.  they will not stop until the last human is dead.  the fight against them is a fight to death.

 the only race with any possibility of 'negotiating' was the CotF.  And they either failed or could not negotiate either.  Once the CotF negotiated a peace with the First Men, they too became Enemies of the WW.  And their creation turned upon them.

Oh yeah?   Then how come Craster had that baby-exchange program with them?

[tmug]

17 hours ago, Jedi Renee said:

Only 13? Do u have source for that?

Yes but I wonder if it's difficult to transport 

Tyrion managed to get a lot of that wildfire into that boat in Blackwater. 

Plus if I have literally no other defense against the WW's other than Valyrian steel swords, bunches of dragon glass weapons or 3 dragons, it's safe to say that I'd risk a few pyromancer lives to transport that stuff to some catapults. 

I would plan it much like Tyrion did Blackwater. Lure the entire WW army into a field of hidden wildfire caches. When they step into the trap, have Bronn light that shit up with a flaming arrow and boom, most of the WW army is burned to a crisp.

I think the odds of winning the War of the Undead right now are in favor of the Living at this point. You have 3 fire-breathing dragons, a horde of wild fire to use or make and an island full of dragon glass, plus whatever Bran can do. Unless the Undead haven't shown their full weaponry/arsenal in the form of an ice dragon and/or other magic, I don't see how even a massive Undead army goes up against 3 airborne fire-breathing dragons.

[Illiterati]

On 6/28/2016 at 7:02 PM, Greg B said:

"The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call 'life.'" (From Martin's original synopsis, bolded for emphasis)

That seems to have been his original conception. So. I think you're right to point to his SF work, but at best, I think we get aliens incompatible with "everything that we would call life," and not just a misunderstood culture. Of course, as you say, maybe the guy changed his mind.

 

 

Dehumanization of the enemy is a mechanism of war.  In this case, the enemy isn't human, but that's beside the point.  When we have an enemy, we don't consider their motivation, needs, loves, hates, etc.  We purposefully construct them as faceless golems who must be destroyed because they are out to destroy us and our way of life.  Thus was born the pejoratives-- gooks, goons, krauts, commies, ragheads -- the list goes on and on.

[CrypticWeirwood]

On June 28, 2016 at 1:45 PM, MilesJames said:

The giants and children of the forest are now dead. 

That remains to be demonstrated.

[CrypticWeirwood]

19 hours ago, Jedi Renee said:

Only 13? Do u have source for that?

The scene where Craster’s son is converted has thirteen Others and their dark lord.

We don’t know if that means there are only ten of them left.  Well, eleven with the kid.

[tmug]

1 hour ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

The scene where Craster’s son is converted has thirteen Others and their dark lord.

We don’t know if that means there are only ten of them left.  Well, eleven with the kid.

Well 13 is the Nights King, he was the 13th Lord Commander of the Nights Watch. That's what I think of when someone says 13.

[Jedi Renee]

20 hours ago, tmug said:

Tyrion managed to get a lot of that wildfire into that boat in Blackwater. 

Plus if I have literally no other defense against the WW's other than Valyrian steel swords, bunches of dragon glass weapons or 3 dragons, it's safe to say that I'd risk a few pyromancer lives to transport that stuff to some catapults. 

I would plan it much like Tyrion did Blackwater. Lure the entire WW army into a field of hidden wildfire caches. When they step into the trap, have Bronn light that shit up with a flaming arrow and boom, most of the WW army is burned to a crisp.

I think the odds of winning the War of the Undead right now are in favor of the Living at this point. You have 3 fire-breathing dragons, a horde of wild fire to use or make and an island full of dragon glass, plus whatever Bran can do. Unless the Undead haven't shown their full weaponry/arsenal in the form of an ice dragon and/or other magic, I don't see how even a massive Undead army goes up against 3 airborne fire-breathing dragons.

Moving wildfire from kings landing to a boat is alot easier then moving it from kings landing all the way north. But maybe, we will see

19 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

That remains to be demonstrated.

Exactly. In the arianne 2 chapter from wow they found CotF stuff in a cavern in the storm lands.  I'm guessing they maybe in the Isle of faces too around the neck.

19 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

The scene where Craster’s son is converted has thirteen Others and their dark lord.

We don’t know if that means there are only ten of them left.  Well, eleven with the kid.

I can't see that this confirms their numbers. We don't no how many babies they took from crastor but it was surely more than 1